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#101 nadera78

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:15 PM

Tooting and Mitcham FC is an interesting idea. The current capacity is 3,500.

There are 600 seats on one touchline, with an impressive fitness club behind it. This stand covers about half the length of the pitch so could theoretically be doubled in capacity. There are covered terraces behind the goals, and behind these are an open area of parkland and a 3G pitch. The touchline opposite the small stand is currently open parkland although the club released plans to build another 600 seat stand with function suites, etc on this area. I don't think anything has actually happened about building this though. There is enough space there to extend the stadium, but I don't think the capacity could ever exceed 10,000 so it would always be below SL standards. There are decent transport links locally though and it is a nice little stadium.

IIRC the football club (and the stadium) are actually owned by the fitness club for some reason or other.

A couple of other local options would be Sutton United and Carshalton Athletic, both of whom have space to extend their grounds considerably and would be areas more conducive to RL teams.

What's becoming increasingly clear in London is that development seems to be going on in two areas; south London and north-east London. There is very little in west, north-west, north or central areas of the city. I think we're moving towards two hubs and the pro club would be better off grabbing one of these and focusing on it.

Edited by nadera78, 21 July 2010 - 02:19 PM.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
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#102 Essex Man

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:30 PM

where on earth do you get your info from bowes? you seem to know a hell of a lot about the Eels


"What's becoming increasingly clear in London is that development seems to be going on in two areas; south London and north-east London. There is very little in west, north-west, north or central areas of the city. I think we're moving towards two hubs and the pro club would be better off grabbing one of these and focusing on it."

Excuse me??? the development in West London is entirely proffesional by Quin's/RFL staff, it's West London that is the main focus of Quin's activity in the community game, according to the londonrl website, there's 23 of them,the development in Essex, Kent, South East London is done entirely by volunteer's, if any of them get a visit from Quin's at all in a season they're lucky.
Hainault Bulldogs did have an evening training/masterclass session at junior level with half a dozen or so first team Quins players, organised by Danny Orr's wife other than that, no help in the area what so ever.
Should any player from over this side of Londonmanage to get into Quins acadamey, they have to travel to West London to train, ok when they're at school and finish earlyenough to make it round the '25 but once at college or at work, no chance, even on a good day it's an hour and half drive from the Elvers ground, even more so from Colchester,god forbid someone might make the journey out here laugh.gif

Edited by Essex Man, 21 July 2010 - 02:35 PM.


#103 nadera78

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Essex Man @ Jul 21 2010, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Excuse me??? the development in West London is entirely proffesional by Quin's/RFL staff, it's West London that is the main focus of Quin's activity in the community game, according to the londonrl website, there's 23 of them,the development in Essex, Kent, South East London is done entirely by volunteer's, if any of them get a visit from Quin's at all in a season they're lucky.
Hainault Bulldogs did have an evening training/masterclass session at junior level with half a dozen or so first team Quins players, organised by Danny Orr's wife other than that, no help in the area what so ever.
Should any player from over this side of Londonmanage to get into Quins acadamey, they have to travel to West London to train, ok when they're at school and finish earlyenough to make it round the '25 but once at college or at work, no chance, even on a good day it's an hour and half drive from the Elvers ground, even more so from Colchester,god forbid someone might make the journey out here laugh.gif


Quins are based in south London. The only amateur club in west london is the Sharks, and I think I'm right in saying that their juniors have split from the open age section to form their own club. Excluding Hammersmith Hills Hoists (almost exclusively Aussies) everything else is in south london. There's nothing in the west. Or north-west, north or central. Partly that's down to facilities, a couple of years ago a few friends and I were trying to get something going in west/central-west london and it was impossible to find anywhere even half decent to play.

The fact that Quins do little or nothing for the clubs in north-east london / essex is worrying.
"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

#104 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE (RLX111 @ Jul 18 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Milton Keynes is in the South East it is only 50 miles from London.


South Midlands.

#105 RLX111

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE (Northern Sol @ Jul 21 2010, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
South Midlands.

Why do you disagree?

Edited by RLX111, 21 July 2010 - 04:22 PM.


#106 bowes

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE (nadera78 @ Jul 21 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Quins are based in south London. The only amateur club in west london is the Sharks, and I think I'm right in saying that their juniors have split from the open age section to form their own club. Excluding Hammersmith Hills Hoists (almost exclusively Aussies) everything else is in south london. There's nothing in the west. Or north-west, north or central. Partly that's down to facilities, a couple of years ago a few friends and I were trying to get something going in west/central-west london and it was impossible to find anywhere even half decent to play.

The fact that Quins do little or nothing for the clubs in north-east london / essex is worrying.

Skolars are in North London, but other than that no sides up there. Staines Titans are the juniors for West London Sharks but yes the rest is East, South or Hertfordshire.

I think long term we'll probably see a couple of National Youth League sides cover this gap, but doubt we'll see it til a few lots of juniors have started to come through. Those of North London and Hertfordshire already have Hemel Stags in NYL and the top lot can go Harlequins Academy

#107 bowes

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (Essex Man @ Jul 21 2010, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
where on earth do you get your info from bowes? you seem to know a hell of a lot about the Eels

The part about them not being originally let in I heard from Marto mainly in reference to Bramley, the RFL wanting rid of them was quite a heated public debate on here.

Though I heard originally the RFL put Essex on the list of clubs by mistake and they had to quickly get people to set them up, not sure how much truth there is in this? I know every now and again the RFL take a proactive approach to try to get people to set up clubs in areas with few clubs, the South West Conference and Bristol Sonics are testimony to this so can be a good idea. (In fact I'd try it in the area just to the South of London, plus the Thames Valley region to try to get more localised divisions down south but that's another debate). However, unfortunately the ambitions of the committee were not the same as those of the players and the sponsorship deal for playing nationally made it harder to drop down that it otherwise would have been. Either way I'm glad the juniors survived and likewise Medway Dragons largely have taken over from Kent Ravens in the junior front for that area (and very well at that, believe some of the same people are involved).


#108 Harold Hill

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 05:17 PM

QUOTE (nadera78 @ Jul 21 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Quins are based in south London. The only amateur club in west london is the Sharks, and I think I'm right in saying that their juniors have split from the open age section to form their own club. Excluding Hammersmith Hills Hoists (almost exclusively Aussies) everything else is in south london. There's nothing in the west. Or north-west, north or central.
The fact that Quins do little or nothing for the clubs in north-east london / essex is worrying.



I wouldn't do the knowledge if I were you.

#109 Spicer

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 05:37 PM

Excuse me??? the development in West London is entirely proffesional by Quin's/RFL staff, it's West London that is the main focus of Quin's activity in the community game, according to the londonrl website, there's 23


Well if they are not in West London Essex Man it makes you wonder where they do work.
Unless as Nadera says they are concentrating on South London these days.

Edited by Spicer, 21 July 2010 - 06:06 PM.


#110 Essex Man

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 21 2010, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The part about them not being originally let in I heard from Marto mainly in reference to Bramley, the RFL wanting rid of them was quite a heated public debate on here.

Though I heard originally the RFL put Essex on the list of clubs by mistake and they had to quickly get people to set them up, not sure how much truth there is in this? I know every now and again the RFL take a proactive approach to try to get people to set up clubs in areas with few clubs, the South West Conference and Bristol Sonics are testimony to this so can be a good idea. (In fact I'd try it in the area just to the South of London, plus the Thames Valley region to try to get more localised divisions down south but that's another debate). However, unfortunately the ambitions of the committee were not the same as those of the players and the sponsorship deal for playing nationally made it harder to drop down that it otherwise would have been. Either way I'm glad the juniors survived and likewise Medway Dragons largely have taken over from Kent Ravens in the junior front for that area (and very well at that, believe some of the same people are involved).



Good grief, your talking about a committee of people who you've never met, have no knowledge of and have absolutely no knowledge of the sponsorship deals or what happened.
I do have to wonder why you have to keep bringing it up though? could you stop trying to guess what you think went on, no one's ever going to tell you, accept it, you know nothing. There hasn't been a ground that holds 5000+ in Romford since the old Romford FC's Brooklands stadium closed in the 1970's.

LMAO@ Harold Hill, wonder if any unionites have read their beloved RU club has moved to South London

#111 bowes

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:21 PM

QUOTE (Essex Man @ Jul 21 2010, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good grief, your talking about a committee of people who you've never met, have no knowledge of and have absolutely no knowledge of the sponsorship deals or what happened.
I do have to wonder why you have to keep bringing it up though? could you stop trying to guess what you think went on, no one's ever going to tell you, accept it, you know nothing. There hasn't been a ground that holds 5000+ in Romford since the old Romford FC's Brooklands stadium closed in the 1970's.

LMAO@ Harold Hill, wonder if any unionites have read their beloved RU club has moved to South London

Anyone that insists on playing teams of 11 teenagers new to rugby league against top amateur clubs is either #### who wants to risk serious injury or very ignorant, full stop. Essex Eels folded and it was inevitable, anyone with any common sense could have said that, full stop. There's no defence for what went on whatsoever, I've seen them play and it was a joke. Welfare of players comes above sponsorship deals (which Essex Eels said were good so I'm trusting that, some people alleged they were just club propaganda) or committee members' egos.

I cannot believe anyone still defends that failure of Essex Eels in National League 3 years after I and the many other people that saw through the propaganda to what was really going on have been proven right

Edited by bowes, 21 July 2010 - 09:27 PM.


#112 Essex Man

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:18 PM

I'm certainley not in any way defending what went on, you have absolutely no idea what your talking about with regards what happened at the Eels, you wern't there, you don't know anyone who was there and you have absolutely no knowledge about anything to do with the way the Eels was run, kindly stop insisting you know what was happening because you simply don't.
Who, seeing as you seem to know so much, were the 'committee' for the first 3 years of the Eels?
I'm not defending the eels, i never will either but you really have no idea what your talking about.

#113 Pottsy

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 11:11 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 21 2010, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
on another note if they were to move to Orients ground then why not "Eastern Orient" or "London Orient" play in the quins away shirt from this year which is a fantastic shirt... the Orient name is unique and fantastic in itself .. i am not sure if i would chuck london back in the name as i dont believe it does anything, a smaller catchement ala the sydney names is better IMO. (if they moved to the city i would then have london city but that obviously wont happen).


Back to the original topic (Bowes' Essex Eels fetish probably deserves a forum of it's own).

I agree with you on lots of stuff regarding London RL but that is a bloody awful suggestion, Rich.

On a subjective level, I hate the name but, in more practical terms, if they do extricate themselves from Quins (retch) it'd be daft to immediately attach themselves to another 3rd party, particularly one that might alienate fans of other football clubs.

I liked the old London RLFC badge that Lobby referred to and wouldn't mind seeing that used again.

Ideally I'd like to see the club 'buy back the farm' in that respect and reclaim some of the heritaged they ditched in order to jump into bed with Quims (hurl).

The more I think about it, the better I think it would be to allow them to occupy a smaller 'boutique' ground that they'd have a good chance of filling and generating atmosphere in but, sadly, the current licensing requirements preclude them from doing this. So, if they move out of the stoop and gain another license, the chances are they'll be stuck somewhere that's again unsuitable in terms of size and location.


#114 Jeff Stein

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:32 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 21 2010, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I cannot believe anyone still defends that failure of Essex Eels in National League 3 years after I and the many other people that saw through the propaganda to what was really going on have been proven right


No one has defended the failure of Essex Eels. The club folded just like many others both in the south and the north have in the past. Like a number of other posters on here, I am just fed up with you coming on here acting as the oracle of all things RL Conference and constantly belittling other people's efforts. It may surprise you that no one sets out to be involved with a failed club.

I wonder what exactly is your experience of running a club. As I cannot remember anyone from Coventry ever turning up to a NL3 meeting I attended I assume I haven't come across you personally (obviously I would tap into your huge knowledge if I had). I also cannot recall you being involved in the Eels so I am not sure where your in depth analysis of the supposed goings on at the club comes from.

All you are doing is peddling half truths and myths no doubt read off the interent and describing people you don't know in the slightest as #### and a joke. Who do you think you are? These are people who have put time, effort and their own money into trying to give opportunities to play the greatest game in Essex which never existed when I was growing up.

Some of these #### who were involved with the Eels have done and are still doing great things for the game of rugby league in the south for little recognition. They have my utmost respect and yet a keyboard warrior like you has the temerity to describe them as ####. I doubt you will contribute to the game in your lifetime what they put in in one season. You should be ashamed of yourself.

#115 nadera78

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 01:03 AM

QUOTE (Harold Hill @ Jul 21 2010, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wouldn't do the knowledge if I were you.


Why? There are two RL clubs in West London - Hammersmith (based in Hammersmith/Acton but don't really count in ths context as they're purely there for some Aussies to play a few games of footy) and West London Sharks (based in Osterley).

Twickenham is in South West London - or Middlesex for the old timers. The juniors-only clubs in that area (like Feltham, Richmond etc) are all in SWLondon too. Then you're moving east into South London proper to hit the Storm and all their offspring clubs, going further into SELondon for Greenwich and Footscray and then way out into Kent for Medway Dragons. Elmbridge are outside of London in the other direction.

The other clubs in London are Skolars in the north or Hainault, Brentwood, Phantoms in the east / essex. Then you've got Hemel and St Albans out in Herts.
"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

#116 RP London

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:45 AM

QUOTE (Pottsy @ Jul 22 2010, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Back to the original topic (Bowes' Essex Eels fetish probably deserves a forum of it's own).

I agree with you on lots of stuff regarding London RL but that is a bloody awful suggestion, Rich.

On a subjective level, I hate the name but, in more practical terms, if they do extricate themselves from Quins (retch) it'd be daft to immediately attach themselves to another 3rd party, particularly one that might alienate fans of other football clubs.

I liked the old London RLFC badge that Lobby referred to and wouldn't mind seeing that used again.

Ideally I'd like to see the club 'buy back the farm' in that respect and reclaim some of the heritaged they ditched in order to jump into bed with Quims (hurl).

The more I think about it, the better I think it would be to allow them to occupy a smaller 'boutique' ground that they'd have a good chance of filling and generating atmosphere in but, sadly, the current licensing requirements preclude them from doing this. So, if they move out of the stoop and gain another license, the chances are they'll be stuck somewhere that's again unsuitable in terms of size and location.


sadly i will have to reply one more time to bowes as its not fair on some of the peope i knew at essex for mhim to get away with it.. sorry

however back to the topic for this post..

brain storming sessions you hear some bloody awful ideas, however, sometimes an idiot idea originally ends up being a good one with a couple of tweaks.. itsthe start rather than the end... give me a bit of leeway i've used my yearly quota of team names up already this year tongue.gif

it was just an idea of something unique to be honest.. i see and agree with not necessarily tying into aother club too quickly.. but you never know what sort of deal may need to be struck and i dont hate the idea too much..

I certainly wouldnt just go with "London RLFC" as "London" doesnt really pull in the people.. you cannot appeal to the whole of London, best idea IMO is to pick an area and appeal to that as mcuh as possible and hope that you appeal to the rest by being the closest RL team in the area.. you then build the relationship which i saw in the 30's in the research i didbetween club and area building etc.. i honestly think dropping "london" is a good way to go but make it distinctly the "capitals club".. Thinking ahead also that you may have more than one club in London over time.. and this leaves the door open to smaller clubs coming through the leagues not needing to use ever more stupid names tacked on to the end of "London" to diferentiate..

just myu little thoughts on it.. badge wise doesnt really bother me too much as its only a badge.. but i would go back to the colours used inthe away kit of quicns this year as they were distinctive.. (or the fulham ones which were also if Hull change their copycat kit back t what it should be!!!!)

#117 RP London

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 21 2010, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyone that insists on playing teams of 11 teenagers new to rugby league against top amateur clubs is either #### who wants to risk serious injury or very ignorant, full stop. Essex Eels folded and it was inevitable, anyone with any common sense could have said that, full stop. There's no defence for what went on whatsoever, I've seen them play and it was a joke. Welfare of players comes above sponsorship deals (which Essex Eels said were good so I'm trusting that, some people alleged they were just club propaganda) or committee members' egos.

I cannot believe anyone still defends that failure of Essex Eels in National League 3 years after I and the many other people that saw through the propaganda to what was really going on have been proven right

we are not defending them but i know a few people who were involved at the time. i had lifts back from Essex with Hoggy when we played essex and i lived in Blackheath and chatted to him a bit about things.. i have spoken to umpteen people there when we played them at theirs and at ours during the days of NL3 and their issues within it..

You are being almightily disparaging to people about calling them #### etc. it was not done for ego, it was not done for money, they did a lot there for the right reasons and it didnt work, they got it wrong and it failed. but there is no way you shuld be saying the things you are about the people involved its disgusting to be frank.

you have no idea what went on behind the scenes or what was said between the RFL and the club and what arguments were being had.. leave it alone as you are showing that you dont know any of this and you are making some quite frankly nasty remarks about people you have probably never met and certainly do not know.

Edited by RP London, 22 July 2010 - 07:50 AM.


#118 bowes

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:20 AM

Best to end debate on Essex Eels as I've heard nothing to change my mind and it's taken us way off topic.

Back on topic:

Would Harlequins moving out of London raise the relevancy of the Skolars as a developmental toool in the way South Wales Scorpions currently are for Crusaders (the Under 18s will also switch to be part of them in the NYL)? I know there's already a link up but if they moved to Oxford or MK then they wouldn't be able to run local Under 20s (like Crusaders don't run a Wrexham based one), so would these sort of players be likely to end up at the Skolars? Plus of course they'd be the biggest club in the capital as well.



#119 Essex Man

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:03 AM

Think you really need to apologise to the forum in general for your comments regarding the people at Essex Eels, to repeat myself yet again, you really have no idea what your talking about there.

In reply to your second part, simply put, no, Skolars has existred for years and still hasn't managed to produce a junior or youth team in the whole set-up that actually turns up to play all game's in a season, from personal experience they just don't travel, when they played in partnership with Hemel in the NYL a few years ago, they rarely all turned up to play (but then neither did Hemel and still don't) The idea that 'Quins U20's are all local dosn't happen, it's made up of player's in the acadamey who are looking to be going on to University plus a few add on's to make the number's up, the 'player pathway' at Skolars takes in Southgate College, where they play in the national college league but not in NYL, they also play in the Daily Mail Union cup as well, the idea there is the player's are coached by bothLeague and Union people and encouraged to play for either Skolars premier or Saracens amateurs at colt level. Again from personal experience, they only want people from local area, Essex players have been told 'they live too far away' if the journey takes more than an hour.
I think a move outside London would have it's good and bad points, good because they won't be competiing against a very old and established Union club with all the traditions that go with that plus it's next door to the national centre for Union too, so surely a move to where's there's little or no competition would benefit. I can't really see the junior development suffering because most clubs have been started and supported by RL people, Greenwich Hainault Brentwood Medway Elmbridge Storm to name a few all have RL experienced people there (as did Eels, it was 2 ex first team Skolars who started it all) and all these people do it purely for the love of the game. The next logical progression woul dbe to have an East or Essex based U18 NYL side, even if it was a joint venture and a service area out here too, there's so much untapped talent here (as am sure there is everywhere) that has nowhere to go unless you have the means to travel across London.
Bas because we'll lose the London RL SL club, i'm not sure that the faithful two thousand or so people who support through thick and thin(ok,mainly thin) would suffer another move and possibly not outside the capital

Edited by Essex Man, 22 July 2010 - 11:06 AM.


#120 bowes

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE (Essex Man @ Jul 22 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Think you really need to apologise to the forum in general for your comments regarding the people at Essex Eels, to repeat myself yet again, you really have no idea what your talking about there.

I haven't heard enough to make me think that I need to, primarily on the player welfare side of things. I am glad that Brentwood Elvers are still going as that is good work and none of my criticism is directed at the likes of junior coaches so I'll apologise if I didn't explicitly exclude them enough.

QUOTE (Essex Man @ Jul 22 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In reply to your second part, simply put, no, Skolars has existred for years and still hasn't managed to produce a junior or youth team in the whole set-up that actually turns up to play all game's in a season, from personal experience they just don't travel, when they played in partnership with Hemel in the NYL a few years ago, they rarely all turned up to play (but then neither did Hemel and still don't) The idea that 'Quins U20's are all local dosn't happen, it's made up of player's in the acadamey who are looking to be going on to University plus a few add on's to make the number's up, the 'player pathway' at Skolars takes in Southgate College, where they play in the national college league but not in NYL, they also play in the Daily Mail Union cup as well, the idea there is the player's are coached by bothLeague and Union people and encouraged to play for either Skolars premier or Saracens amateurs at colt level. Again from personal experience, they only want people from local area, Essex players have been told 'they live too far away' if the journey takes more than an hour.
I think a move outside London would have it's good and bad points, good because they won't be competiing against a very old and established Union club with all the traditions that go with that plus it's next door to the national centre for Union too, so surely a move to where's there's little or no competition would benefit. I can't really see the junior development suffering because most clubs have been started and supported by RL people, Greenwich Hainault Brentwood Medway Elmbridge Storm to name a few all have RL experienced people there (as did Eels, it was 2 ex first team Skolars who started it all) and all these people do it purely for the love of the game. The next logical progression woul dbe to have an East or Essex based U18 NYL side, even if it was a joint venture and a service area out here too, there's so much untapped talent here (as am sure there is everywhere) that has nowhere to go unless you have the means to travel across London.
Bas because we'll lose the London RL SL club, i'm not sure that the faithful two thousand or so people who support through thick and thin(ok,mainly thin) would suffer another move and possibly not outside the capital

Guess not then, tough one I thought the Skolars C1 side took in players from other areas of the South, but perhaps not (Premier I thought were locals and largely separate from the pro side, they did once split as Haringey Hornets and it has been considered again).

Definitely medium term National Youth League sides in the East and South of London would be very desirable once we're ready, what would happen with open age is dependant on the way the structure changes with the amateur game switching to summer etc.





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