Are the RFL not accepting any new teams?

[yipyee]

36 minutes ago, NotToday said:

 

But is retaining 3 leagues feasible if they aren't selling tickets and not getting TV coverage? I hear all this talk about teams needing games and making money from that, but the attendances the lower you go down the table seems to be pretty poor.

If most RFLC games aren't being aired, then forget RFL1 is the gist of it.

Now if you force RFL1 into RFLC, without disbanding a single club but merging the leagues into one, you kind of force people's hands into following them. It won't increase the amount of games aired per se, but the variety of teams being aired would increase; and that increased awareness would drive attendances. League1 is effectively in a media blackout.

 

My idea is to divide the 26 teams of a single RFLC into 2 Conferences. The winner of each is declared Conference champion. Then the top-5 or so teams from each Conference play in they playoff stage and becomes RFL Champion and gains promotion.

The benefits of this:

1. Instead of people treating the League1 championship as meaningless, they see the two Conference titles as equals. No more blackout.

2. Variety of clubs aired and covered by media, thereby allowing all of them to gain valuable exposure and resulting revenue, which League1 teams otherwise don't.

3. By creating additional titles, but within the existing package, you create more accolades to aim for and more storylines and drama for audiences. Yet, the amount of total games played is roughly the same as prior system. Everyone can't be RFL Champion, but it's possible for 1 or 2 additional clubs to be Conference champion per year.  

4. The sponsorship value of RFLC as an organization increases because it's twice as many games, in contrast to League1 which has no real sponsorship value by itself due to no visibility.

5. Because half the teams are segregated from the other half, when the top-5 clubs from each finally get to face off, that provides a renewed boost of audience interest. It's like watching the All-Star clubs playing against each other. The media and fans will be taking about it for weeks into the lead up.

This has been tried and abandoned also you would upset the P&R brigade

[NotToday]

@The Reaper  You need to give it a rest. Don't lose sleep over this.

 

Why on earth would I waste my time trying to follow who was mad at the comment first? That comment is insignificant.

I responded to whoever came up on my Notifications first. If you were the first to quote, then you were the lowest one on my Notifications.  Simple as that.

[Hemel Stag]

8 minutes ago, NotToday said:

 

But is retaining 3 leagues feasible if they aren't selling tickets and not getting TV coverage? I hear all this talk about teams needing games and making money from that, but the attendances the lower you go down the table seems to be pretty poor.

If most RFLC games aren't being aired, then forget RFL1 is the gist of it.

Now if you force RFL1 into RFLC, without disbanding a single club but merging the leagues into one, you kind of force people's hands into following them. It won't increase the amount of games aired per se, but the variety of teams being aired would increase; and that increased awareness would drive attendances. League1 is effectively in a media blackout.

 

My idea is to divide the 26 teams of a single RFLC into 2 Conferences. The winner of each is declared Conference champion. Then the top-5 or so teams from each Conference play in they playoff stage and becomes RFL Champion and gains promotion.

The benefits of this:

1. Instead of people treating the League1 championship as meaningless, they see the two Conference titles as equals. No more blackout.

2. Variety of clubs aired and covered by media, thereby allowing all of them to gain valuable exposure and resulting revenue, which League1 teams otherwise don't.

3. By creating additional titles, but within the existing package, you create more accolades to aim for and more storylines and drama for audiences. Yet, the amount of total games played is roughly the same as prior system. Everyone can't be RFL Champion, but it's possible for 1 or 2 additional clubs to be Conference champion per year.  

4. The sponsorship value of RFLC as an organization increases because it's twice as many games, in contrast to League1 which has no real sponsorship value by itself due to no visibility.

5. Because half the teams are segregated from the other half, when the top-5 clubs from each finally get to face off, that provides a renewed boost of audience interest. It's like watching the All-Star clubs playing against each other. The media and fans will be taking about it for weeks into the lead up.

I really like what you have written.

If a team like Widnes Vikings gets relegated from Super League, to Championship, they will be regarded as a contender for promotion next year. They will be at the top end of Championship and hopelessly mismatched against a team like Rochdale Hornets, as in last weekends match with Toronto Wolfpack.

Put them into a mixed pool of Championship and League 1 sides and it would be embarrassing and a turn off for the fans. It's bad enough seeing your local team getting thumped 74-6 by Oldham or 52-7 by Bradford or 56-6 by York, without adding the top guns to the mix. 

Super League has to be more super. The Championship has to have its profile raised, with Sky exercising its broadcasting rights. Below this there should be a conference structure; north / south, east / west or both, with play offs to add interest. I agree with you on this but don't think you can put the championship clubs in this mix.

My big concern is the startling miss match between many teams.

Another thought is people's resources. I'm happy to go and watch the local team for £8/£9 on the gate, and chips for £1, if they have a 50/50 or even a 60/40 chance. Would I be likely to be flying off to Toulouse or Toronto for the weekend? Not likely. Getting the train up to Coventry is more realistic, and that's pushing the boat out !

 

 

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, yipyee said:

This has been tried and abandoned also you would upset the P&R brigade

 

I am a proponent of the P&R, I'm not saying take it away. Matter of fact if and when there are more clubs bring back the 3rd tier division.

But as it stands now, the 2nd and 3rd should be merged and divided horizontally not vertically. For reasons I've stated above.

[Hemel Stag]

2 minutes ago, NotToday said:

 

I am a proponent of the P&R, I'm not saying take it away. Matter of fact if and when there are more clubs bring back the 3rd tier division.

But as it stands now, the 2nd and 3rd should be merged and divided horizontally not vertically. For reasons I've stated above.

Agree, P&R is imperative. More teams at all levels, with funding from central, sponsors and attendance's. You have to keep L1 & L2 in place. At L1 level you can't expect people or clubs to be doing the hard yards from Cornwall to Newcastle, it's got to be broken down to more regional lumps, this is where you can build a bridge from the fringes to L2 and start to blend in the tier 4 amateur sides, a more defined pathway perhaps.

[NotToday]

31 minutes ago, Hemel Stag said:

I really like what you have written.

If a team like Widnes Vikings gets relegated from Super League, to Championship, they will be regarded as a contender for promotion next year. They will be at the top end of Championship and hopelessly mismatched against a team like Rochdale Hornets, as in last weekends match with Toronto Wolfpack.

Put them into a mixed pool of Championship and League 1 sides and it would be embarrassing and a turn off for the fans. It's bad enough seeing your local team getting thumped 74-6 by Oldham or 52-7 by Bradford or 56-6 by York, without adding the top guns to the mix. 

Super League has to be more super. The Championship has to have its profile raised, with Sky exercising its broadcasting rights. Below this there should be a conference structure; north / south, east / west or both, with play offs to add interest. I agree with you on this but don't think you can put the championship clubs in this mix.

My big concern is the startling miss match between many teams.

Another thought is people's resources. I'm happy to go and watch the local team for £8/£9 on the gate, and chips for £1, if they have a 50/50 or even a 60/40 chance. Would I be likely to be flying off to Toulouse or Toronto for the weekend? Not likely. Getting the train up to Coventry is more realistic, and that's pushing the boat out !

 

Right now there aren't enough clubs to have Conferences on the third tier or lower. A Conference at second tier works.  Like I said, over time this will need to be readjusted, when the game rejuvenates we bring back the 3rd division. Push down several of the RFLC clubs to neo-RFL1 while adding the new ones into its mix.

I'm the one who earlier suggested in another thread, the weaker clubs getting thrashed would be bad for their image. But after much thought, I've realized  it is better to be thrashed while gaining a following, then being an OKAY club in a division no one's watching.

With increased exposure (and investment for some clubs), revenues will go up, and so to will their players. Poor clubs can't afford good players and coaches either. A team like Newcastle Thunder would get a lot of sponsorship in RFLC compared to RFL1. You need clubs in major cities, but that's pointless if they're in bush league. 

We need to attract whales to the game, to invest in new clubs in major cities. They want exposure. They can also rest assured that they are one tier away from being in the SL. If they are good enough they get promotion quicker, they don't have to waste an additional year climbing up from RFL1. If they're not good enough they still get to be the top contenders in RFLC.

The weak teams aren't going to be too much thrashed though, since they only play half the teams overall. A few good ones, a few subpar ones (in each Conference). At the end of the day, RFL1 teams want promotion to RFLC, so now they get it. They might be thrashed by the top-5, but they'll be competitive with the bottom 5-10, as they already are.

 

[Hemel Stag]

6 minutes ago, NotToday said:

I get what you're saying but right now there aren't enough clubs to have Conferences on the third tier or lower. A Conference at second tier works.  Like I said, over time this will need to be readjusted, when the game rejuvenates we bring back the 3rd division. Push down several of the RFLC clubs to neo-RFL1 while adding the new ones into its mix.

I'm the one who earlier suggested in another thread, the weaker clubs getting thrashed would be bad for their image. But after much thought, I've realized  it is better to be thrashed while gaining a following, then being an OKAY club in a division no one's watching.

With increased exposure (and investment for some clubs), revenues will go up, and so to will their players. Poor clubs can't afford good players and coaches either. A team like Newcastle Thunder would get a lot of sponsorship in RFLC compared to RFL1. You need clubs in major cities, but that's pointless if they're in bush league. 

 

I think we basically agree. It's just a question of where and how you draw the line.

For any club in any division you have to have the hope of winning once in a while. Another thing is clubs being honest about what their ambition is. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a community based club that entertains a gate in the hundreds and feeds young players in to the local super league team academy.

Bottom Line is more bums on seats = more money = more possibilities. Get player participation from the school level, build the audience, connect to your locality, and the rest will follow.

I have no idea where you are: The sport looks entirely different from two ends of the same country. The ambitions and timescales are disparate.

 

[TIWIT]

2 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

RU - "Team England" is a phenomena but apart from this the Premiership and Championship don't have such great gates and geographically it is concentrated in an inverted L shape along the M4 from Bath & Bristol via London and up the M1 to Northampton and Leicester. Sale and Newcastle being outposts with good teams that are poorly supported (inverse of the Broncos situation for RL) RU get a lot of media coverage from their old school chums in the mainstream media but this is disproportionate to the size of the sport, in my opinion.

RL - League structure - there are big gaps between the quality and infrastructure of the clubs, leading to an imbalance and those leagues being noncompetitive and not sufficiently entertaining for the fans. You could almost cut each league in two to match the teams levels, but six leagues of six teams would never work. But I agree with you, contracting back to two leagues wouldn't help either, it would make things worse. We need more teams at all levels to equal out the leagues and more bums on seats to fund it. There needs to be a big Marketing Drive from the RFL to get the sport noticed and tried by new people. Toronto are adding lots of noise in the media, Coventry Bears are working wonders wwith social media, fan and community engagement, showing what can be done on a minimal budget and with lots of input from dedicated volunteers that love their club. I am full of respect for the guys and gals at Coventry. 

Down here, in the deep dark south, there are lots of small teams and lots of community initiatives, there are a lot of amateur players  at all ages, but there's no audience. Talking to people at work, there's some "brand recognition" for teams such as Bradford Bulls and Leeds Rhinos. I think the World Cup, with the Semi's at Arsenal, is the golden opportunity to touch a new audience. If Broncos can keep themselves up and London Skolars benefit from the Wolfpack investment, it could be a very good springboard.

People are open to new sports, NFL is having an impact (sell out games at Wembley), you can even watch professional Ice Hockey at places like Salford and Milton Keynes ! A good selling point for RL in the South is that it is fresh, new, fast, physical, high scoring. This is the "Rock 'n' Roll" of sporting action. How can this not be sold?   

 

If the RFL are doing the marketing.

Their idea of marketing is placing an ad in the classifieds section of the local paper... But not too big or expensive.

[YCKonstantine]

1 hour ago, NotToday said:

 

I am a proponent of the P&R, I'm not saying take it away. Matter of fact if and when there are more clubs bring back the 3rd tier division.

But as it stands now, the 2nd and 3rd should be merged and divided horizontally not vertically. For reasons I've stated above.

How many and which teams would be in each conference and how would you divide them in your opinion?

[NotToday]

2 minutes ago, YCKonstantine said:

How many and which teams would be in each conference and how would you divide them in your opinion?

12 or 14 teams in both Conferences (currently 12 and 13 each). Half of the current RFLC and RFL1 teams get split up evenly.

I  have thought about the problems of a geographic-based division since there's pro-rel involved. If you go by East/West  then one side may become uneven if the relegated team (or teams over the years) come from a particular side over the other.

Instead it should be something akin to URC (United Rugby League Conference) and NRC (National Rugby League Conference), similar to the NFL's  AFC/NFC concept. It is better than having Conference-A and Conference-B that Pro14 seems to have. Who wants "Conference-B Winner" on their resume over "NRC Champion"?

The only caveat is that both Welsh teams would be in a single Conference, that way they can form derby and Wales audiences can concentrate on that division.

Following pro-rel, the teams can be adjusted between the two Conferences if needed. This in itself can become a big deal over the years. Since a particular team switching to another Conference is something exciting as their regular-season opposition is now different.

Here's one starting scenario:

NRC:

Wolfpack, Widness, Halifax, Batley Bulldogs, Rams

Rochdale, Barrow Raiders, Wales Raiders, Crusaders, 

Oldham, Doncaster, Hunslet, Bears

URC:

Toulouse, Bradford, Rovers, Eagles, Centurions

York Knights, Swinton, Newcastle, Skolars

Whitehaven, Workington Town, Keighley

 

[RP London]

16 hours ago, NotToday said:

This is what needs to be built on overtime; you don't do this by throwing away your core.

By the time RL is popular enough to have attracted that large fanbase, you're going to need a 2nd and 3rd division anyways. If you decide to ignore the newly-large fanbase at that point, they're going to create rival leagues and eat into your claim to a first-tier league anyways.

The UK isn't a low-density large country like a few others, people can travel very easily and affordably; there is no barrier to entry for another national league to rival your version of SL at that point. 

Do you live in the UK?

The one thing that is always spoken about is how bloody difficult it is to travel around the country and how expensive it is. London can take 2 hours to cross depending on where you are going from and to. Broncos cannot attract support from its own city because it is too much of a pain to get from one end of it to the other. 

Travelling around the country is painful, time consuming and expensive. It was one of the massive obstacles in the way of NL3 working well, it would fall into an obstacle here too. 

I like a lot of what you are saying but this argument doesn't work for me. 

I will critisise the RFL till the cows come home but one thing i do feel massively sorry for them on is that no matter how much they want to reform League one etc this travel and expense and ease argument will always raise its head and it will always cause a problem.. 

From years of being on this board the argument you are having here has been had almost yearly. 

I agree with much of the sentiment that you have but you have to understand travel and getting RL supporters and frankly teams to travel (remember League one is semi pro in terms of getting money from the club but its really not much, its on a sunday mostly, and people do long houred early start style jobs for a large part). I had friends who played at Skolars in the early to mid 2000s. They were good enough to be there but the money was not good enough to keep them there with the pain of every other weekend travelling north for more than a couple of years, they would then drop back a couple of leagues to play for us again and have a better lifestyle.

That is the type of obstacle that has to be overcome. Mid champ to mid league one is a huge huge difference in all sorts of ways. Yes you might attract more money but its not going to be overnight and so you are going to have these sorts of obstacles before you get there and with experience I dont see them being overcome before the money comes in that people think might do.

[NotToday]

Two hours is actually nothing. It can take an entire day driving from New York to Florida in the east coast of the US alone. You would need a plane for quick flights. That is the barrier to entry I was speaking of. I would presume it's something similar in Canada and Australia.  Small clubs just starting out cannot afford to travel as a result, thus making it hard to form a national league on their own. That is why ideas of a monopoly-tier league can work in the aforementioned but not in other countries, where P&R is the way to go.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, NotToday said:

Two hours is actually nothing. It can take an entire day driving from New York to Florida in the east coast of the US alone. You would need a plane for quick flights. That is the barrier to entry I was speaking of. I would presume it's something similar in Canada and Australia.  Small clubs just starting out cannot afford to travel as a result, thus making it hard to form a national league on their own. That is why ideas of a monopoly-tier league can work in the aforementioned but not in other countries, where P&R is the way to go.

But, as you like to point out, we arent talking about the USA here we are talking about the UK and the UK attitude to travel is very very different.

A club can get promoted well beyond the clubs means by having good players that play for them as amateurs.. it is an area which is a major issue for all sports. get away from the pro/semi pro ranks and very very quickly it regionalises.. there are very few nationwide semi pro/amateur comps in the uk. League one suffers from this... to clump it with the champ and make them play nationwide and you are not really changing anything.. no matter how it is flowered up.. the same issues are there.

[Rob Nash]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:06 PM, GUBRATS said:

The LSV isnt Leighs , Hilton park wasnt for the last 30 years they played in it , the Shay isnt Fax's , AJ bell isnt salfords , halton isnt Widnes's , DW isnt wigans , odsal isnt Bradfords , Belle vue isnt wakeys , keepmoat isnt donny's

It was still a site better than what we now see , more to it than just the Don Valley for the Eagles , bottom line is there isnt really any appetite for RL in the city

Keepmoat isn't Donny's? Who do we rent it off then out of interest?

[The Parksider]

On 2/11/2019 at 11:42 AM, Damien said:

I despair at the state of RL and how it is run in the UK. When it comes to expansion. A competent organisation would have  certainly had 2, if not 4 French teams, in Super League by now. A fairly basic £8 million French TV deal would  fund 4 teams 

I despair at the state of some posts on here. France has one wealthy investor In Gausch, the French TV companies were not interested, and there's not even enough French SL players for one team.  Les Cats ship in twice as many imports as anyone else and who are all  chosen first as French talent is highly limited. As for £2M to fund an SL club and all it's staff, never mind players......Face a few facts man.

On 2/12/2019 at 12:43 AM, Manfred Mann said:

I happen to believe that we should be aiming not only for four international big city teams to play in Super League but we should also be aiming medium term to complement these teams over time with further growth in France and North America.

Do you believe in fairies as well?  As above no TV deal and only one big investor in France interested in RL. In North america nobody interested in investing just one Aussie so again no chance of a paying TV deal. World cup dead. End of.

On 2/12/2019 at 2:43 AM, Big Picture said:

RL does need a league with well-funded teams based in big cities, but that can't and won't happen within the RFL structure or with any of the traditional clubs because no one within the English game is competent to create it or trustworthy enough for the type of investors needed to touch with a barge pole.  The events of the last year prove that beyond any doubt.

The only thing events have proved is Rugby Union has dominated for 100 years everywhere but along the M62 and Australia. There are hundreds of rich rugby investors and thousands of quality rugby players outside the M62 & Oz, but they all choose the game they have grown up with. They are always going to do that. Apart from in the minds of a few individuals.....

On 2/12/2019 at 10:28 AM, NotToday said:

You see a fantasy world where economics, population, density, and political dynamics doesn't apply.

I see your fantasy world where rich people who have very little knowledge of, and very little to do with RL are supposedly all sat there waiting for some miracle worker to rouse them to create big city clubs across the globe whilst TV moguls will happily pay £Millions to televise these mega clubs despite them all already having full access to a massively more popular version of Rugby. and that ain't all.......

17 hours ago, Marauder said:

Have you even mentioned the development of players because you can't buy what is not there.

OOPS! Sorry Marauder No, because I was too busy outlining all these mega £Millionaires and Big TV companies are not waiting for a change of leadership at the RFL before their mass switch from union to League. ANYWAY.....

With Salford low on players and London largely making do with the Championship lads as I set out before we probably have about 200 decent English professional RL players. France simply have not generated that many despite 12 years in Superleague, and less and less are coming from Wales and the RU areas of England.

There's enough quality however for about 10 good SL squads as long as we can fill up with decent Aussies. None of the fantasy clubs above would produce any as you need a heck of a lot of kids and junior teams playing RL regularly just to find a few gems as you know (You were one), and outside the M62 such Rugby players are actually already there in their tens of thousands. Pity they are all playing Rugby Union.

[Angelic Cynic]

Parksider wrote,

Quote

and less and less are coming from Wales

 Factually incorrect - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/remarkable-welsh-revolution-sees-17-13615294

  If the RFL are not accepting any new clubs it looks like those M62 superstars - and their well-run clubs - will just have to maintain the status quo.

   We've never had it so good!

[NotToday]

14 hours ago, RP London said:

But, as you like to point out, we arent talking about the USA here we are talking about the UK and the UK attitude to travel is very very different.

A club can get promoted well beyond the clubs means by having good players that play for them as amateurs.. it is an area which is a major issue for all sports. get away from the pro/semi pro ranks and very very quickly it regionalises.. there are very few nationwide semi pro/amateur comps in the uk. League one suffers from this... to clump it with the champ and make them play nationwide and you are not really changing anything.. no matter how it is flowered up.. the same issues are there.

 

I think you are conflating multiple argument discussions.

My barrier to entry argument was against this notion that sports outside the US/CAN/AUS should  become a single-tier and discard pro-rel. Because creating a rival national league is not that hard in low-landmass countries. By the time SL would be huge (in his scenario) investors would be pouring money into that rival league (since now the market is huge). I've already used the example of Premier League vs EFL. If PL was a closed-off league, then the millionaires pouring billions into the EFL would rival it; currently, it isn't because PL is part of a pyramid which declares it to be the top-tier.

So I am against this idea that pro-rel should be discarded from Super League. In the chase for big city clubs which may or may not work out in the end  you cannot throw away your core fanbase who follow those smaller clubs from their locale. I am for expanding to big cities, just not this dumb anti-pro/rel stance.

 

My wholly separate idea of merging RFL1 into RFLC is entirely separate from that. On the contrary it's actually bordering closer to that former notion that I was arguing against. Of course, that is because of different circumstances and the need to act in accordance. In this argument of mine, I am suggesting a single 2nd-tier division would garner needed exposure for those smaller clubs who are already struggling for attendance and have virtually no media exposure. Sponsors want exposure; and without exposure you aren't gaining new fans or selling tickets either. A club like Newcastle Thunder would benefit from sponsorship a lot being that it is in a large market, but it isn't aired on TV so now that market is a lost opportunity.

[RP London]

4 hours ago, NotToday said:

 

I think you are conflating multiple argument discussions.

My barrier to entry argument was against this notion that sports outside the US/CAN/AUS should  become a single-tier and discard pro-rel. Because creating a rival national league is not that hard in low-landmass countries. By the time SL would be huge (in his scenario) investors would be pouring money into that rival league (since now the market is huge). I've already used the example of Premier League vs EFL. If PL was a closed-off league, then the millionaires pouring billions into the EFL would rival it; currently, it isn't because PL is part of a pyramid which declares it to be the top-tier.

So I am against this idea that pro-rel should be discarded from Super League. In the chase for big city clubs which may or may not work out in the end  you cannot throw away your core fanbase who follow those smaller clubs from their locale. I am for expanding to big cities, just not this dumb anti-pro/rel stance.

 

My wholly separate idea of merging RFL1 into RFLC is entirely separate from that. On the contrary it's actually bordering closer to that former notion that I was arguing against. Of course, that is because of different circumstances and the need to act in accordance. In this argument of mine, I am suggesting a single 2nd-tier division would garner needed exposure for those smaller clubs who are already struggling for attendance and have virtually no media exposure. Sponsors want exposure; and without exposure you aren't gaining new fans or selling tickets either. A club like Newcastle Thunder would benefit from sponsorship a lot being that it is in a large market, but it isn't aired on TV so now that market is a lost opportunity.

I'm not conflating multiple argument discussions at all, i dont care about what the issue is in the US/CAN or what "barriers to entry" you are talking about..  I'm singularly pointing out that the UK is not as easy as you are making out (the simple A-level Geography terms around population density you are using are discarding the Socio-Economic and infrastructure issues of the UK along with the psyche of many of those involved in supporting and playing). National leagues at levels below fully pro or very high semi pro do not work because those that take part (let alone support) struggle to travel around the country on a weekly/bi-weekly basis. This is true of every sport, it regionalises very quickly and often at a point that still has more money in it than League one. To ignore that is to ignore the largest single issue within league one... to do what you are doing does not solve that issue but actually adds some larger hammerings to those teams causing them further issues. To try and have League One clubs travelling constantly around the country to get bigger beatings (and to have yearly trips abroad) is not going to help them but will probably see more go to the wall (and that includes the northern teams as well as expansion teams). 

For my part on your general idea:

All the bonuses you suggest "garnering needed exposure" etc for the likes of Newcastle.. Newcastle are moving along quite nicely.. they are gaining what they need to and growing at a nice steady pace.. they are a big success story for League one.. what you need is the exposure for Skolars and Cov (but they could also grow like Newcastle have).. but is being on a national stage getting their ***** handed to them on a plate useful.. no not really. Is Leigh playing Keighly and Hunslet and West Wales going to help them? no.. by bringing the 2 leagues together you are adding some god awful games to the mix and therefore making a level between the 2 divisions which will not appeal to that many people (it has been done before remember).. 

The only way the 2 come together is if that many drop out of league one that they have no choice.

If you're looking for increased exposure just remember its hard enough to get Super League that much more exposure so dont know why anyone thinks that the divisions below will magic it up... 

League one needs to be stable and needs to give new clubs somewhere to grow and older clubs that need to rebuild and find their place in the new modern game somewhere to do that. How to do that is always a matter of debate, but you cannot jump clubs straight into a fully national comp on a shoe string budget, it is being proven almost every year and this "system" will not solve that. It also has to be balanced with the fact that league one does have some success in the above (York have rebuilt there nicely, Coventry look as though they are coming through the right way, Newcastle are nicely progressing etc). be careful of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

every year on this board there is at least one debate on the way to solve the league one issue for a long time and all the same arguments pop up, yours is nothing new and (bar conferencing on a random basis, which is brought up on super league threads) has been in place before.

 

[Clogiron]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:33 AM, Bleep1673 said:

I am Opening a bid for the Hastings Conquerers RLFC, we don't have any players, we don't have a pitch, we don't have a sponsor, but given that the government will give millions to a Ferry Company in Ramsgate, who don't have any boats, I think I have a chance.

If you changed the name to Hastings Portsiders Grayling would probably drop you a few million

[Hemel Stag]

If money were no object and distance irrelevant; I might choose to follow Warrington. I have had a look at costings and timings, for the next Thursday night home match. From where I live; cheapest return train travel £50, booked in advance and committing to timed trains. The cheapest adult match ticket £22, the cheapest hotel £38 (total £110) and that's not considering meals, drinks, programme, souvenir's etc 

Want to go beyond budget; book into Hospitality in the Platinum Lounge for £125, plus a better hotel for £90, same trains, total £265. plus the extras.

The distance, from where I live, is 154 miles. The AA quote an optimistic travel time of 3 hours by road. By train it is coming out at 8 hours+ with 2-4 changes.

Have done a comparison with League 1 Coventry Bears, Season Ticket for £105. Return train ticket £12. Close enough that accommodation isn't needed.

So, one game at Wolves would cost me £110 - £265+ or I could get to see All the matches at Coventry including train tickets for that sort of cash.

For anybody reading this from USA & Canada; for historical reasons, wealthy people have tended to follow RU, working people are more likely to follow RL, so people's individual budgets are a consideration.

The idea of merging the Championship with League 1 is ridiculous. I have got no interest in seeing my local team crucified 100-0 by a team knocking on Super League's door. It's pointless and a complete turn off. Would rather see them have half a chance against a similar grade of team.

The disparities of the top and bottom of Championship and League 1 are so great that attempting to merge them would be a disaster.

 

 

[The Parksider]

On 2/14/2019 at 3:43 AM, NotToday said:

In the chase for big city clubs which may or may not work out in the end  you cannot throw away your core fanbase who follow those smaller clubs from their locale. I am for expanding to big cities..

There is no "chase for big city clubs" what planet are you on?. One rich investor left his City club in Salford where there is some amateur and junior Rugby League played at some serious clubs and where there are 5K RL supporters. He now appears to be awaiting his old club running out of money, so he can ship the team off to Liverpool where they will face an even bigger task to create some sort of RL culture that has been tried several times and failed badly each time.

You may be for "expanding to big cities" is this because you have found a way to get  thousands of people playing RL in them and investors wanting to pop several £Million a year in to facilitate all that?  Expanding to big cities is neither inventing phoney baloney clubs or shifting a club from one city where most people don't want to know it, to a city where nobody has ever wanted to know RL. I can certainly see why the RFL may not "accept" this new phoney club, run by a man who shut down an academy.

On 2/14/2019 at 7:51 AM, RP London said:

 Every sport regionalises very quickly To try and have League One clubs travelling constantly around the country to get bigger beatings (and to have yearly trips abroad) will probably see more go to the wall 

League one needs to be stable and needs to give new clubs somewhere to grow and older clubs that need to rebuild and find their place in the new modern game somewhere to do that. Every year on this board there is at least one debate on the way to solve the league one issue for a long time and all the same arguments pop up, yours is nothing new and (bar conferencing on a random basis, which is brought up on super league threads) has been in place before.

I like your opening point. Even the Premier League stick in the muds won't accept Celtic or Rangers, yet the Scotchy World Rugby League Premiership spans the globe from Perth to New York. 

If we look at the current funding by SKY, to the SL bosses disgust £16,398,000 at least goes to clubs outside Super League and they tried to stop that a year ago. Given the SL bosses will negotiate the next reduced deal all I can see is a number of clubs existence being financially wiped out and that "Somewhere to grow" where nobody has ever grown without a rich owner, will cease to exist.

It's not as if the proposed (but heavily opposed) 2x10 clubs only wasn't a very very obvious and heavy sign that the very existence of such as Coventry,  North Wales, Swinton and Rochdale is in doubt as well as Newcastle and Skolars unless their rich investors actually spend something significant. I'm not sure why you do not seem to get it League One is on it's last legs?? I'm not sure people get it that soon there will be no league for Manchester Rangers and maybe even Swinton to play in.

On 2/13/2019 at 4:13 PM, Angelic Cynic said:

 Factually incorrect - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/remarkable-welsh-revolution-sees-17-13615294  If the RFL are not accepting any new clubs it looks like those M62 superstars will have to maintain the status quo.

Your quoted Wales RL puff piece does you no favours and does not in any way tackle the point I made. Look closely at the floods of professional quality Welsh SL players coming into Superleague first team squads (not pictures of welsh kids who are playing RL). There is Dudson and Flower from the old Celtic Crusaders from 10 years ago. Then there's Regan Grace. See if you can make that up to even a seven a side Welsh born Superleague quality team. 

We've had this for years and years where thankfully some kids and their families play and support RL outside of the M62 like in Wales. That does not in any way give us a Welsh Superleague player development system. That only exists from Hull to St.Helens as much as I would like it to be otherwise. Anyway it prompted me to look at a few proper welsh teams from the past, and remember the greats like David Watkins, Mike Nicholas, John Bevan,  Colin Dixon, Maurice Richards and Jim Mills.

In those days a top rugby player knew where the money was, they still do, but the money is now elsewhere.

[Angelic Cynic]

40 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

You may be for "expanding to big cities" is this because you have found a way to get  thousands of people playing RL in them and investors wanting to pop several £Million a year in to facilitate all that?  Expanding to big cities is neither inventing phoney baloney clubs or shifting a club from one city where most people don't want to know it, to a city where nobody has ever wanted to know RL. I can certainly see why the RFL may not "accept" this new phoney club, run by a man who shut down an academy.

  The Salford Academy  was NOT,as far as I am aware, shut down by Dr Koukash,but it was the governing body who reclassified some Academies,such as Sheffield Eagles and Cumbria,even though Cumbria was run by Widnes,a club which was 'elite',with a wealthy owner at the time.

  https://www.salfordreddevils.net/academy-progress-recognised-by-the-rfl/

  

48 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Your quoted Wales RL puff piece does you no favours and does not in any way tackle the point I made. Look closely at the floods of professional quality Welsh SL players coming into Superleague first team squads (not pictures of welsh kids who are playing RL). There is Dudson and Flower from the old Celtic Crusaders from 10 years ago. Then there's Regan Grace. See if you can make that up to even a seven a side Welsh born Superleague quality team. 

We've had this for years and years where thankfully some kids and their families play and support RL outside of the M62 like in Wales. That does not in any way give us a Welsh Superleague player development system. That only exists from Hull to St.Helens as much as I would like it to be otherwise. Anyway it prompted me to look at a few proper welsh teams from the past, and remember the greats like David Watkins, Mike Nicholas, John Bevan,  Colin Dixon, Maurice Richards and Jim Mills.

In those days a top rugby player knew where the money was, they still do, but the money is now elsewhere.

   The 'greats' you mention were all of a certain age when they established themselves in rugby league - long before Super League emerged and long before the systems, structures and development all changed,along with the reserves and academies being altered.

  No doubt by the time the clocks chime midnight there will be further change.

   Your postings will be enough to change the course for all the youngsters who by geographical fate don't get schooled and taken on by clubs alongside the M62.

   The ever-altering system may be enough to deflate and defeat youngsters already seriously handicapped by this little finding

   http://trainingground.guru/articles/why-understanding-the-teenage-brain-is-key-to-coaching#.XFjZ4wyzq8c.twitter

   to be then met with rejection by those who seek instant success with their power grab and a governing body changing the goal-posts with regularity.

     With regard to Dr Koukash and Liverpool - no one knows at what level he is to start.If Manchester Rangers cannot start in League 1 after their years of cultivation,how can Liverpool start at that level? 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

14 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

If money were no object and distance irrelevant; I might choose to follow Warrington. I have had a look at costings and timings, for the next Thursday night home match. From where I live; cheapest return train travel £50, booked in advance and committing to timed trains. The cheapest adult match ticket £22, the cheapest hotel £38 (total £110) and that's not considering meals, drinks, programme, souvenir's etc 

Want to go beyond budget; book into Hospitality in the Platinum Lounge for £125, plus a better hotel for £90, same trains, total £265. plus the extras.

The distance, from where I live, is 154 miles. The AA quote an optimistic travel time of 3 hours by road. By train it is coming out at 8 hours+ with 2-4 changes.

Have done a comparison with League 1 Coventry Bears, Season Ticket for £105. Return train ticket £12. Close enough that accommodation isn't needed.

So, one game at Wolves would cost me £110 - £265+ or I could get to see All the matches at Coventry including train tickets for that sort of cash.

For anybody reading this from USA & Canada; for historical reasons, wealthy people have tended to follow RU, working people are more likely to follow RL, so people's individual budgets are a consideration.

The idea of merging the Championship with League 1 is ridiculous. I have got no interest in seeing my local team crucified 100-0 by a team knocking on Super League's door. It's pointless and a complete turn off. Would rather see them have half a chance against a similar grade of team.

The disparities of the top and bottom of Championship and League 1 are so great that attempting to merge them would be a disaster.

 

 

What you have not factored in for those working (no idea if you do) is that following a Super League club, specifically some of the perceived better ones who get shown on TV a lot, is that games tend to be Thursday/Friday nights so you’re looking at the loss of anything between half a day to two day’s of annual leave or loss of earnings for the self-employed, so the true cost can be an extra £100+ on top of the outgoings of travel, accommodation and a match ticket. 

It’s not exactly appealing to casual fans of the game and even for those ardent exiled fan of the game, because they’re likely to be restricted to a couple of visits a season, at most. 

[Hemel Stag]

5 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

What you have not factored in for those working (no idea if you do) is that following a Super League club, specifically some of the perceived better ones who get shown on TV a lot, is that games tend to be Thursday/Friday nights so you’re looking at the loss of anything between half a day to two day’s of annual leave or loss of earnings for the self-employed, so the true cost can be an extra £100+ on top of the outgoings of travel, accommodation and a match ticket. 

It’s not exactly appealing to casual fans of the game and even for those ardent exiled fan of the game, because they’re likely to be restricted to a couple of visits a season, at most. 

Quite right, I totally agree with you, thanks for adding more weight to the case. Yes, I do work for a living and no I couldn't dream of spending that sort of cash on a regular basis. So I say cherish your Championship and League 1 sides for what they are, open, friendly, accessible places providing opportunities for players at a variety of levels and some very affordable sporting entertainment. They deserve more recognition. 

[The Parksider]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:30 AM, Angelic Cynic said:

The Salford Academy  was NOT,as far as I am aware, shut down by Dr Koukash,but it was the governing body who reclassified some Academies.........

With regard to Dr Koukash and Liverpool - no one knows at what level he is to start.If Manchester Rangers cannot start in League 1 after their years of cultivation,how can Liverpool start at that level? 

"Marwan Koukash  is scouring the local schools and communities with the intentions of attracting and encouraging the kids at grass roots into the game. he says grass roots are very, very important.  "When I came into the game I made a claim that I do want to build a successful team very, very soon but at the same time I want to spread Rugby League into Manchester".

“I have two strategies working here in parallel.  The first one will be encouraging more youngsters to take up the sport and I will personally go visit as many schools as possible in the Greater Manchester area over the next 12 months.  Not just to promote the club but to promote Rugby League in general".

As far as I am aware he talked a lot of hot air, then he shut the academy after pondering whether to have a dual academy with Leigh. After closure this discontent from fellow clubs was reported.....

"Two Super League clubs operate without academy sides, with the RFL’s category one setups costing in the region of £300,000 to run. With discontent about clubs now being able to spend more on the cap and some sides not being forced into a compulsory academy programme, a number of Super League clubs have threatened to revert to cheaper, cost-productive category‑three academy schemes".

As for Liverpool "starting", there is every chance they will not be accepted as clearly all Kooks wants to do is the same old trick tried 50 times over the years of setting up in a place they do not play RL and shipping 30 players out of the RL heartlands to play in a soccer/RU dominated city. What you have to realise is this sort of "Investment" isn't anything much to do with expanding the game. It's just a bit of rich man's fun. You may ponder the level Kooks may "start" at. but it's far more likely he will be refused, as their application appears to be ridiculous, especially compared to Manchester Rangers application that was at least based on real life junior development.