The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[longboard]

Le roi, c'est moi.

[Martyn Sadler]

 

It's that time of the week again.

 

In this week's issue of League Express we survey the most likely candidates who will be contending for this season's Albert Goldthorpe Rookie of the Year Medal. Which young player will follow in Hull FC star Tom Lineham's footsteps from last season?

 

We pick out one young player from every club, but with no guarantee that the eventual winner will come from our selection.

 

Many readers claim that our annual survey of rookies is one of their favourite features in League Express in the whole year.

 

We set out what is at stake, both for the RFL and for the clubs themselves, at two crucial meetings this week of the Super League clubs.

 

We speak to St Helens coach Nathan Brown about his team's prospects for the forthcoming season, and we give our readers the chance to win St Helens replica shirts, both home and away.

 

We also have previews of the 2014 season for the Cumbrian clubs Whitehaven and Workington Town.

 

We speak to Bradford coach Francis Cummins about the disruption to his team in relation to the club's ownership dispute.

 

We speak to Hull FC captain Gareth Ellis about his impending second season at the club.

 

We speak to Hull KR's Jamie Langley about how a new club has put a spring into his step.

 

We speak to Leeds Rhinos about how they are among the leading sports clubs in Britain for using social media.

 

We speak to Sean Long about the prospects for London Broncos.

 

We speak to Paul Wellens about his 'Back to the Future' season in 2014.

 

We speak to Jimmy Keinhorst about why he thinks Luke Briscoe will be a great success at Wakefield.

 

We speak to Widnes coach Denis Betts about why the Vikings will keep improving in 2014.

 

We speak to Wigan about their fans following them to the other side of the world. 

 

We speak to the Australian player who is about to break the NRL record for consecutive appearances.

 

In our 'Off the Field' feature we feature St Helens star Alex Walmsley.

 

In 'Talking Rugby League' I put forward my ideas for how the league structure should best be organised to bring back promotion and relegation.

 

Garry Schofield tells us why he recently had a telephone call from Aussie legend Andrew Johns.

 

Gareth Walker wonders about the significance of this week's Super League meetings for clubs in the Championship.

 

Amateur editor Phil Hodgson tries to get to the bottom of why Sharlston Rovers were excluded from this year's Challenge Cup competition.

 

In 'On This Day', Richard de la Riviere looks back 24 years to the last day on which a team outside the top-flight reached a major Cup Final.

 

And in 'View from the Strand', Malcolm Andrews explains why he has a Newtown sticker on the back of his car.

 

I hope you all enjoy a good read.

 

You can subscribe to League Express online by going to http://www.pocketmag...=League Express.

 

By doing that you don't have to wait until Monday, although it will be here rather soon.

[The Parksider]

I will Wellsy. Huddersfield are improving slowly at producing players, They still lag behind lots of clubs, and i think that is because they lag behind many areas in the number of Amateurs playing the game.

 

To be honest i think this has nearly always been the case , So the fact that Fartown themselves had got to such a low ebb for such a long time, may not have a very big bearing .

 

Might help if you check out the clubs academy rating here, and the reasons why Huddersfield a top club in SL may be one of the first to be refused RFL backing for their academy.

[The Parksider]

Much more cut throat I guess all round, more money flowing down through the game, assist the likes of Oxford and anyone else just climbing on board, keeps the likes of Sheffield and Leigh on a more even keel. Protects the sport to a degree.It doesn't promote the interests of the top tier but then neither did licensing, it provided a stable backdrop but no real growth, hence no main sponsor, simples.The new system promotes innovation and growth throughout the sport, exactly what you don't want if its a small pie and you want more of it.We wont get a sponsor until the sport innovates and moves on, licensing here was only part of the journey, to grow the sport nationally we need a path through to the upper reaches. Different business model here, licensing was necessary, now lets move on, re-invigorate and aggressively target sponsors and new markets through the likes of Gloucester and Oxford and other regions such as Bristol and even the like of Italy eventually

 

Not sure what you are saying here, what is the "different business model" and how exactly does it work?

[keighley]

Not sure what you are saying here, what is the "different business model" and how exactly does it work?

He can speak for himself of course but my take on his post is that he is saying licencing has not worked and we need to change access to the top tier so the game can expand and new markets and former markets can expand the scope of SL, change some of the participants and the way to do that is to return to p and r.

[yipyee]

He can speak for himself of course but my take on his post is that he is saying licencing has not worked and we need to change access to the top tier so the game can expand and new markets and former markets can expand the scope of SL, change some of the participants and the way to do that is to return to p and r.

not necessarily. ....

[The Parksider]

He can speak for himself of course but my take on his post is that he is saying licencing has not worked and we need to change access to the top tier so the game can expand and new markets and former markets can expand the scope of SL, change some of the participants and the way to do that is to return to p and r.

 

Nope - doesn't work for me that. Unless your headline is:-

 

"P & R  will expand new markets in the game, and expand former markets by changing the participants of Superleague"

 

There's never anything behind these empty headlines. Nobody has to explain their theories of course, but again I'd like to know how changing Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Catalans, Warrington and Saints for say Oxford Gloucester, Sheffield, Keighley, Leigh and Featherstone will expand the market for the game.......Without destroying the market and infrastructure of the big clubs for a massive nett loss? Any takers or is that it for the debate now?

 

Anyhow today Martyn Sadler would like a system of P & R in which over 3 years you have to win the grand final and then all the GF winners play off for the three yearly SL place whilst all the SL losers over the three years play off to avoid the relegation place.

 

Simple, easy for the fans to understand and fair (??), after all it can relegate a club with money and replace it with a club without money, trapping that latter club to a possible disasterous three year stint - a la London Broncos.

 

The sight of poor Broncos having to stitch together a "club" just to see the 3 years out one would have thought would be proof enough this sort of thing is no good. Still clubs could refuse promotion in which if that happened we'd go six years with nothing.

 

The massive financial gap between the Elite and the rest prevents any results based system working for me.

Edited January 13, 2014 by The Parksider

[Terry Mullaney]

Nope - doesn't work for me that. Unless your headline is:-

"P & R will expand new markets in the game, and expand former markets by changing the participants of Superleague"

There's never anything behind these empty headlines. Nobody has to explain their theories of course, but again I'd like to know how changing Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Catalans, Warrington and Saints for say Oxford Gloucester, Sheffield, Keighley, Leigh and Featherstone will expand the market for the game.......Without destroying the market and infrastructure of the big clubs for a massive nett loss? Any takers or is that it for the debate now?

Anyhow today Martyn Sadler would like a system of P & R in which over 3 years you have to win the grand final and then all the GF winners play off for the three yearly SL place whilst all the SL losers over the three years play off to avoid the relegation place.

Simple, easy for the fans to understand and fair (??), after all it can relegate a club with money and replace it with a club without money, trapping that latter club to a possible disasterous three year stint - a la London Broncos.

The sight of poor Broncos having to stitch together a "club" just to see the 3 years out one would have thought would be proof enough this sort of thing is no good. Still clubs could refuse promotion in which if that happened we'd go six years with nothing.

The massive financial gap between the Elite and the rest prevents any results based system working for me.

I've not seen the article but could we have a scenario whereby one or even two of the SL losers(presumably the teams who finish bottom) are taking part in both the GF play offs and also the relegation play offs in year three? Edited January 13, 2014 by Terry Mullaney

[gingerjon]

Can we have some sort of marker here? I mean some sort of guarantee that things will be great soon?

Licensing was given about 3 years (less in reality) before being declared a failure. So using this as a guide, unless no clubs are having financial issues, crowds are significantly up and most games are close with no blow out scores in around 18 months to 2 years can I lead the calls to change things again because it clearly isn't working after so much time and effort? it's clearly the done thing.

 

These things always seem to have a two-three year cycle.  It's why Exiles is now being kicked out whilst the Sky Sports Feedback collective mull the Celtic Doodads, and why we never know year to year what kind of series it will be.  It's amazing the Magic Weekend has lasted considering.

 

Whatever is changed for 2015 you can guarantee the league set up won't be the same come 2019.

[sweaty craiq]

[quote name="The Parksider" post="2863279" timestamp

There's never anything behind these empty headlines. Nobody has to explain their theories of course, but again I'd like to know how changing Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Catalans, Warrington and Saints for say Oxford Gloucester, Sheffield, Keighley, Leigh and Featherstone will expand the market for the game.......Without destroying the market and infrastructure of the big clubs for a massive nett loss? Any takers or is that it for the debate now?

Anyhow today Martyn Sadler would like a system of P & R in which over 3 years you have to win the grand final and then all the GF winners play off for the three yearly SL place whilst all the SL losers over the three years play off to avoid the relegation place.

Simple, easy for the fans to understand and fair (??), after all it can relegate a club with money and replace it with a club without money, trapping that latter club to a possible disasterous three year stint - a la London Broncos.

The sight of poor Broncos having to stitch together a "club" just to see the 3 years out one would have thought would be proof enough this sort of thing is no good. Still clubs could refuse promotion in which if that happened we'd go six years with nothing.

The massive financial gap between the Elite and the rest prevents any results based system working for me.

Leeds Wigan etc are in as much danger as chelsea Man U etc of going down, the battle is between Widnes HKR Cas wakey Salford London on the SL front and leigh fax Fev and sheff on the championship, are Cas bigger than fax or Leigh? Given the same finance over many years? It will be good to see 8 of those scrap if out in a mid 8 but better still to have two full time tens allowing clubs to build

IMO Martyn has got to a stage of life he enjoys winding folk up with outrageous suggestions - it's good fun that

[southstand loiner]

he is a wakey fan so maybe theres a hidden agenda  there for mr sadler  !!!

[GaryO]

 

 

Anyhow today Martyn Sadler would like a system of P & R in which over 3 years you have to win the grand final and then all the GF winners play off for the three yearly SL place whilst all the SL losers over the three years play off to avoid the relegation place.

 

 

 

Why don't we also add on a round robin of darts and domino's to avoid any stalemate! What a load of tripe that is, obviously Martin is still a big fan of licensing and wants to keep the three year cycle going, all he is suggesting is a different entry model.

 

I don't see what the problem is, why are people running scared of the 3 x 8 and more to the point the middle section, if a team who has played in SL all season and presumably with and against better players in a higher standard of Rugby League Football cannot overcome the teams from a sub-standard league and finish in a position to guarantee "survival" then they do not deserve to be in SL. 

[Griff]

I said that if we go to the 3x8 that quite a few people still seem to think is a good, rather than alarmingly awful, idea that those games would not take place.  I don't think it's yet been decided what will actually be called Super League from 2015 - whether it's the top tier, the top two tiers, the top tier and then the middle 8 ...

 

I think it was clear from the poster's comment that he, at least, regarded $uperleague as the top division in the twelve phase.

 

However, I agree with you that the whole structure is a mess with no clear indication of what we're playing for except for a place in one or other of the next set of groups and the $uperleague crown itself.

[gingerjon]

I think it was clear from the poster's comment that he, at least, regarded $uperleague as the top division in the twelve phase.

 

However, I agree with you that the whole structure is a mess with no clear indication of what we're playing for except for a place in one or other of the next set of groups and the $uperleague crown itself.

 

Apologies then.  There are so many mini conversations going on I don't think I quite grasped that that comment referred to the more traditional set-up.

 

I still honestly don't see why the RFL are pushing so hard for 3x8, nor why they are focusing on the middle tier to the exclusion of either the upper set up or the game below it.  The latter part needs proper attention - linking the semi pro and amateur/community games in a way that secures and spreads RL.  The former needs some smart investment in sponsorship and coverage.  Endlessly farting about with the middle isn't going to help the whole game at all.  The game needs finance and coherence, not jeopardy and gimmicks.

 

But then I've said that a lot and the mess never seems to get anywhere near being sorted out.

[Dave T]

I think it was clear from the poster's comment that he, at least, regarded $uperleague as the top division in the twelve phase.

 

However, I agree with you that the whole structure is a mess with no clear indication of what we're playing for except for a place in one or other of the next set of groups and the $uperleague crown itself.

I think the Championship becomes slightly cloudy, as basically you are playing for promotion, but the objective of SL doesn't really change.

 

You start the season aiming to make the top 8 playoff and win the thing.

 

Now though, if you miss the playoffs it isn;t season over, you have to fight for your life to avoid relegation.

[Dave T]

Apologies then.  There are so many mini conversations going on I don't think I quite grasped that that comment referred to the more traditional set-up.

 

I still honestly don't see why the RFL are pushing so hard for 3x8, nor why they are focusing on the middle tier to the exclusion of either the upper set up or the game below it.  The latter part needs proper attention - linking the semi pro and amateur/community games in a way that secures and spreads RL.  The former needs some smart investment in sponsorship and coverage.  Endlessly farting about with the middle isn't going to help the whole game at all.  The game needs finance and coherence, not jeopardy and gimmicks.

 

But then I've said that a lot and the mess never seems to get anywhere near being sorted out.

I used to manage a sales team. I would often focus my attention on the lower and middle level performers as there is more opportunity for them to deliver more than focusing solely on the top players.

 

I don't see how the likes of Warrington and Wigan are being neglected. The TV rights are going for record sums, sponsorship is a struggle, but then there is a valid viewpoint that the creation of a more exciting league will help that (plus we are expecting a sponsor to be announced this year).

 

There have been many decisions over recent years that have appeared to be weighted in favour of the big clubs, dual registration, restructure of academies etc. so I hardly think the sole focus is on the smaller clubs.

 

I don't how the 3x8 excludes the top clubs. They will play more games against the better teams, hopefully leading to bigger crowds and more intense games. I personally wish they'd gone even further and more radical tbh.

[gingerjon]

I personally wish they'd gone even further and more radical tbh.

 

The rest is opinion and I don't think we'll agree but I'd be interested in hearing what your thinking is here ...

[Griff]

I think the Championship becomes slightly cloudy, as basically you are playing for promotion, but the objective of SL doesn't really change.

 

You start the season aiming to make the top 8 playoff and win the thing.

 

Now though, if you miss the playoffs it isn;t season over, you have to fight for your life to avoid relegation.

 

The very top won't change much.  The rest is anticlimactic to me.  Halfway through the middle Eight phase, teams will start realising they're already up - or down.  Third Eight - not exciting for me at all.  You get a Big Day Out if you're in the Final but I'm struggling to see that Final as Grand.

 

Just my opinion - others may think differently.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Griff

[Dave T]

The rest is opinion and I don't think we'll agree but I'd be interested in hearing what your thinking is here ...

I think there are probably only 20 teams with real potential at the moment, I'd have had 2 x 10 in the first phase. I think it would have allowed for more intense games throughout and a better funding structure than with 24 teams - where I still think many will be making up the numbers.

 

After 18 rounds this could have become a top 6 with home and away. I understand the issue with repeat fixtures, but the fact is that whilst a repeat Saints v Wigan game (for example) may have a lower crowd than their original game, it would still be a bigger draw for fans and broadcasters than Saints v Cas (no disrespect to Cas).

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I enjoyed your article as ever

But I wonder where expanding the competition fits into the structure you outline.

[Dave T]

The very top won't change much.  The rest is anticlimactic to me.  Halfway through the middle Eight phase, teams will start realising they're already up - or down.  Third Eight - not exciting for me at all.  You get a Big Day Out if you're in the Final but I'm struggling to see that Final as Grand.

 

Just my opinion - others may think differently.

No, I can understand that view, however at the moment, halfway through a season many teams realise that they are not going to do anything, so I'm not sure this makes anything worse.

 

What this structure does do is give every team some hope at the start of the season.

 

I see the third tier as a Uefa Cup or RU Eurpoean Challenge Cup. Hardly Grand as they are secondary comps, but can be fun for the teams in it.

[The Parksider]

Why don't we also add on a round robin of darts and domino's to avoid any stalemate! What a load of tripe that is, obviously Martin is still a big fan of licensing and wants to keep the three year cycle going, all he is suggesting is a different entry model.

 

That's bang on the money IMVHO. But I don't think it's because as SSL suggests tongue in cheek it's in Mr. Sadler's personal interests.

 

He has set out how hard it is for a club to jump the £multi- million gap between CC and SL in just one year, and how damaging it is to any club that either drops straight back down after promotion or drops out after several seasons. He quoted Cas as in danger of going out of business as would Salford have done, as may London.

 

What he has said many times is IMVHO absolutely spot on but is totally ignored by the other side of this debate that claims P & R will grow the game and grow it's attendances. Someone is not living in the real world, but as they say sport is about dreams......

 

Mr. Sadlers plan applied to 2009-2011 would have seen Barrow, Halifax and Fev play off to see who goes up, and Crusaders Catalans and Crusaders again play off to see who goes down.

 

How exciting that would have been I dunno. Cats would not have got to play Crusaders because by 2011 they had collapsed. Equally by 2011 Barrow were bottom of CC and heading for CC1. What an odd play off series that would have been??

 

Mr. Sadlers plan applied to 20012-2014 would probably see Sheffield, Sheffield and maybe even Sheffield again play off to see who goes up, and Salford, Widnes and probably London play off to see who goes down. maybe this would have worked with  a club with no money, no decent ground, and no fans replacing a club with no money, no decent ground and no fans.

 

Another embarrassing oddity??

 

Is this really the solution?

[Griff]

No, I can understand that view, however at the moment, halfway through a season many teams realise that they are not going to do anything, so I'm not sure this makes anything worse.

 

What this structure does do is give every team some hope at the start of the season.

 

I see the third tier as a Uefa Cup or RU Eurpoean Challenge Cup. Hardly Grand as they are secondary comps, but can be fun for the teams in it.

 

A fair view. 

[The Parksider]

The very top won't change much.  The rest is anticlimactic to me. 

 

Just my opinion - others may think differently.

 

I agree, to remove 2 SL clubs this coming season and another four SL clubs in a year and a half to play outside of the Elite could not be more "anticlimatic" but apparently attendances will go through the roof and all RL clubs across the land will "grow".

 

No evidence at all for any of that, so the question remains posed "I still honestly don't see why the RFL are pushing so hard for 3x8". If one can't see the answer amongst all the press releases and joyous up front opinions amongst the P & R brigade then maybe something is going on in the background?

 

Again SL is in debt by tens of £Millions, again most owners of clubs in the bottom half of SL do not want to be cash cows and are complaining about the glass ceiling that wastes their money and licensing that demands they spend more than just "on the first team".

 

The Championship isn't as widely reported but we have seen a season of crowds dropping at Fax, Leigh and Sheffield as their fixtures are reduced to mainly games against SL "A" teams, ruining the integrity of the competition I think Aston was reported as saying in strong terms.

 

But the real Superleague clubs offer little compromise if any.

 

So what fits keeping the top SL clubs happy, whilst allowing the Bottom SL clubs to spend less and be happy, whilst rescuing Sheffield Halifax and Fev from games against fast fading clubs reduced to being dependant on SL dual reg so they are happy???

 

Probably 2x12 = 2x8 (who does care for anything beyond that?) is Nigel Wood's key to keeping the 18 most important clubs happy and his job intact

[The Parksider]

You start the SL season aiming to make the top 8 playoff and win the thing.

 

Now though, if you miss the playoffs it isn't season over, you have to fight for your life to avoid relegation.

 

Mr. Sadler suggests "The proposal will see full time squads against part time squads in the middle tier of eight. It will be amazing if we see any genuine movement of clubs in those circumstances".

 

I don't see anyone fighting for their life, I see a structural change that creates a new 8 club Championship and ejects all the dual registration 600 crowd clubs to a third tier.

 

Sure there may be a club that manages to make the top four (Fev) and get in the Superleague for the opening part of the consequent Superleague season, but will they then make the top 8? I think not.

 

Many say that P & R is needed to refresh the top division. That is the top eight and given HKR were bottom of that and Bradford top last year of the next 6 that principle will  apply. Clubs will be able to gain year on year promotion to the eight club Superleague and maybe stay there.

 

It's just that this principle will mainly apply to existing SL clubs refreshing the new eight club SL.

 

2x12=2x8 will not IMVHO enable existing championship clubs any real permanent access to Superleague, it will however keep the wolf from the door