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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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I support expansion but it has to be done properly and things done slowly building a foundation to work off. Its pure stupidity and madness throwing a club in SL within a couple of years and hoping it will work. For me expansion has to be done via a development officer(s) going into schools and working to strengthen or form amateur clubs within an area. Once you have that foundation then you can start looking at a pro club within the area that the foundation can support. Anybody that has worked with the development of the game knows how tough it is just at amateur level. Doing it at Pro level is even harder requiring extra money, extra effort and the need to see some success for the money and effort invested. Short term thinking and hoping things work is not the way to do things, especially running a Pro Sports Club. I would rather see clubs like Hemel Stags take many years to build something and become part of the community and be a success at a level they are comfortable. A club like London or Crusaders MK 1 playing and operating in SL when clearly they are not fit on and off the field at that level does the club nor the game any good for me. Expansion takes time and you cant cut corners if you want it to succeed. 

 

People are saying we have 8 clubs that are good for SL and can operate at that level. Sorry but we have one maybe 2 that can do that the rest rely on moneymen to help them at the higher level. Take the likes of Mcmanus, Moran, Koukash, Davy away at the clubs will soon be in big trouble and be not much if at all than the likes of Cas, Widnes, HKR. As I said the 8 x 3 concept addresses no issues that need sorting. The poor management of clubs will still continue and clubs will keep thinking short term and cut corners instead of looking long term. I have no confidence in either the RFL or the Clubs as both sides keep making dumb decisions which do nothing to help the game long term.

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They both went up but assuming it was purely based on tables, as they were both finalists in 2007 they both would have gone up anyway. (Based on the fact two teams were going up)

Crusaders at that time aren't a good example of good business,they broke every rule in the book to try and get were they and the rfl wanted them to be.

Werent they the scorpions at that time?

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Good evening America.

 

I don't think you have got the point yet.

 

When a club has a very rich man spending £Millions in a game lacking money he can take them anywhere.

 

To say P & R was responsible for Huddersfield's success, and ignore the reality that it was approximately a £10,000,000 gift from Davey wot did it, really does miss the point big time.

Huddersfield's elevation to SL was due to their being PROMOTED. Davy;s money contributed to that promotion. Huddersfield may have been granted a licence also due to Davy's money if there was no p and r but they would have had to wait three years and had a better application than other clubs. Under p and r they were guaranteed their SL place once they won the Championship as were Hull KR, Castleford and Wakefield.

Featherstone may win promotion this time and investor money might be the catalyst for that promotion but under licencing, there would be no such certainty if the won the Championship for 5 years straight.

I'm not missing the point. The money either is or isn't there but the SL place is won on the field and not subject to other subjective or arbitrary decisions whether of KPMG, old cronies clubs or plain jealousy or self interest from incumbent SL clubs.

The allegation of point missing is levelled because it's not YOUR point that is accepted or argued.

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Huddersfield's elevation to SL was due to their being PROMOTED. Davy;s money contributed to that promotion. Huddersfield may have been granted a licence also due to Davy's money if there was no p and r but they would have had to wait three years and had a better application than other clubs. Under p and r they were guaranteed their SL place once they won the Championship as were Hull KR, Castleford and Wakefield.

Featherstone may win promotion this time and investor money might be the catalyst for that promotion but under licencing, there would be no such certainty if the won the Championship for 5 years straight.

I'm not missing the point. The money either is or isn't there but the SL place is won on the field and not subject to other subjective or arbitrary decisions whether of KPMG, old cronies clubs or plain jealousy or self interest from incumbent SL clubs.

The allegation of point missing is levelled because it's not YOUR point that is accepted or argued.

I also doubt Davy would have invested in Huddersfield if they were in the second division AFTER P&R was abandonded. Hopefully the new structure will see additional investors take a punt with clubs outside SL given the new potential for taking a club from the second or third tier to SL by cast iron performances on the pitch

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Crusaders at that time aren't a good example of good business,they broke every rule in the book to try and get were they and the rfl wanted them to be.

Werent they the scorpions at that time?

I am not sure they broke any rules but I think the guy behind them may have been less than snow White. They were known as Celtic Crusaders then IIRC.
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Thanks to Mr. Hudgell gifting them £500,000 a year, but last year he said he could not go on doing this.

 

Let's take it to the extreme. Lets say Keighley found someone to give them £3,000,000 a year for 15 years.

 

And as a result of this they won the hub cap.

 

Would you then put this success down to Promotion and Relegation?

No, the success would have been due mostly to the money but also due to success on the field generated by that money. The progression to their winning the hubcap would have been facilitated by the p and r system in place as it was for the Giants and HKR. How could that be deemed to make p and r unsuccessful which was your initial foray. Under licencing there would be no guarantee that Keighley would be elevated to SL, three million a year or not. They would have ahd to contend with the Toulouse's, Crusaders, Widnes's of the game and might have lost those battles. P and r guarantees your SL place, IF you win it on the field and back it up with the money. Liencing does no such thing. For me p and r was a success.

The only serious failure was Leigh and the mega successes were Huddersfield with moderate success at Hull KR, Wakefield and Castleford. The p and r in place during the SL era was a success. It was a mechanism for getting clubs in SL. That money was commensurate with that is irrelevant. Money was equally important when applying for a licence under that failed format.

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I am not sure they broke any rules but I think the guy behind them may have been less than snow White. They were known as Celtic Crusaders then IIRC.

Celtic Crusaders sounds right,thanks.

Didn't a large number of there players end up not having the right visas to work in this country and were concequently chucked out after?

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Celtic Crusaders sounds right,thanks.

Didn't a large number of there players end up not having the right visas to work in this country and were concequently chucked out after?

Yeah it was a terrible set up but it was not known at the time.
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I also doubt Davy would have invested in Huddersfield if they were in the second division AFTER P&R was abandonded. Hopefully the new structure will see additional investors take a punt with clubs outside SL given the new potential for taking a club from the second or third tier to SL by cast iron performances on the pitch

[/quote

Promotion is possible under the 3 x 8 but it's unlikely. The deck I too stacked against the championship clubs both on monies allocated to them and playing battle tested SL clubs with Championship level teams on a continuing fixtures league format rather than a knockout one and done playoff system.

A guaranteed promotion format would have been much better.

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As I recall, Mr Hudgell entered the Hull KR picture when they were in CC1 on sub 2,000 crowds. Craven park was dire, the pitch was a bog, the ends were empty and administration was only just exited.

Today they are in SL, have replaced the pitch, built a brand new end stand and draw north of 7,000 and have a junior set up. This last season they made the eight. Yes, Mr Hudgell has reservations about his continuing investment but standing still does not seem to be where Hull KR are at given their CC1 start. Compared to the quagmire they were drowning in, I think the ground now is nicely solidifying beneath them. If they continue their progress they might just kick Hull FC out of the eight next season.

Whilst I agree with everything there can I point out that if hull kr finished in the 8 it is impossible for them to kick them out of the 8! Long term hull kr are a better prospect than hull due to them owning their own stadia. ..additionally the arguement that if hull kr dropped out the league hull fc would prosper is logically reversed if hull fc dropped out the league. ..... I will state though that long term it would be best just to have 1 hull club in SL......for now the fight is interesting......

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No they didn't. They lost to Salford in the Championship grand final and both went in on a licence. I think it was when they expanded SL to 14 maybe.

correct and got in on merit if they were promoting 2 for the expansion so both of you are correct!
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I support expansion but it has to be done properly and things done slowly building a foundation to work off. Its pure stupidity and madness throwing a club in SL within a couple of years and hoping it will work. For me expansion has to be done via a development officer(s) going into schools and working to strengthen or form amateur clubs within an area. Once you have that foundation then you can start looking at a pro club within the area that the foundation can support. Anybody that has worked with the development of the game knows how tough it is just at amateur level. Doing it at Pro level is even harder requiring extra money, extra effort and the need to see some success for the money and effort invested. Short term thinking and hoping things work is not the way to do things, especially running a Pro Sports Club. I would rather see clubs like Hemel Stags take many years to build something and become part of the community and be a success at a level they are comfortable. A club like London or Crusaders MK 1 playing and operating in SL when clearly they are not fit on and off the field at that level does the club nor the game any good for me. Expansion takes time and you cant cut corners if you want it to succeed.

People are saying we have 8 clubs that are good for SL and can operate at that level. Sorry but we have one maybe 2 that can do that the rest rely on moneymen to help them at the higher level. Take the likes of Mcmanus, Moran, Koukash, Davy away at the clubs will soon be in big trouble and be not much if at all than the likes of Cas, Widnes, HKR. As I said the 8 x 3 concept addresses no issues that need sorting. The poor management of clubs will still continue and clubs will keep thinking short term and cut corners instead of looking long term. I have no confidence in either the RFL or the Clubs as both sides keep making dumb decisions which do nothing to help the game long term.

so how much does mcmanus put in? Not a lot, also warrington make a profit, they only made a loss as they invested 2mill on the stadia which should lead to long term profit. .. there are 8 clubs who can operate at the required level and the facilities and structures are in place because of licensing!

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No, the success would have been due mostly to the money but also due to success on the field generated by that money. The progression to their winning the hubcap would have been facilitated by the p and r system in place as it was for the Giants and HKR. How could that be deemed to make p and r unsuccessful which was your initial foray. Under licencing there would be no guarantee that Keighley would be elevated to SL, three million a year or not. They would have ahd to contend with the Toulouse's, Crusaders, Widnes's of the game and might have lost those battles. P and r guarantees your SL place, IF you win it on the field and back it up with the money. Liencing does no such thing. For me p and r was a success.

The only serious failure was Leigh and the mega successes were Huddersfield with moderate success at Hull KR, Wakefield and Castleford. The p and r in place during the SL era was a success. It was a mechanism for getting clubs in SL. That money was commensurate with that is irrelevant. Money was equally important when applying for a licence under that failed format.

Huddersfield have started winning under licencing they were always bottom before that you are missing that the guarantee of top flight helped them assemble a mostly homegrown squad and plan long term.....

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Yeah it was a terrible set up but it was not known at the time.

I have it on a very good authority that the likes of Nigel Wood and others at the RFL knew very well that there was issues with the Visa and that people was owed money before Crusaders got in to SL. The RFL were desperate to have Crusaders in SL at any price and ignored some of the things going on hoping things would be OK. Nigel Wood verbally gave his word that John Dixon and co would be given the money they was owed-needless to say this never happened and his left many players and businesses out of pocket by a few thousand. 

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Huddersfield have started winning under licencing they were always bottom before that you are missing that the guarantee of top flight helped them assemble a mostly homegrown squad and plan long term.....

They were always bottom because they were spared relegation due to the Championship winners being denied promotion. Once they actually were relegated, they got their act together, won promotion and kicked on from there. On their promotion initially there was no three year exemption from promotion. The club could have been relegated the following season.

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I have it on a very good authority that the likes of Nigel Wood and others at the RFL knew very well that there was issues with the Visa and that people was owed money before Crusaders got in to SL. The RFL were desperate to have Crusaders in SL at any price and ignored some of the things going on hoping things would be OK. Nigel Wood verbally gave his word that John Dixon and co would be given the money they was owed-needless to say this never happened and his left many players and businesses out of pocket by a few thousand.

But the Crusaders were given a licence anyway. Says it all about the skulduggery involved in licence allocation.

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I have it on a very good authority that the likes of Nigel Wood and others at the RFL knew very well that there was issues with the Visa and that people was owed money before Crusaders got in to SL. The RFL were desperate to have Crusaders in SL at any price and ignored some of the things going on hoping things would be OK. Nigel Wood verbally gave his word that John Dixon and co would be given the money they was owed-needless to say this never happened and his left many players and businesses out of pocket by a few thousand. 

You might well be right but if it is true, it certainly wasn't common knowledge at the time- and that's all most people can base their views on. It could have possibly been a calculated risk (they happen every day in business) and had it paid off everyone would be hailing them as smart guys. As it was, Samuel was less than relaible...the rest etc etc

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so how much does mcmanus put in? Not a lot, also warrington make a profit, they only made a loss as they invested 2mill on the stadia which should lead to long term profit. .. there are 8 clubs who can operate at the required level and the facilities and structures are in place because of licensing

It was Mcmanus who got the Langtree Stadium built. Without his influence and input it would probably never have been built. And he himself has said it has saved the clubs future. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyleague/article-2094515/St-Helens-new-stadium-secures-club-future-says-chief-Eamonn-McManus.html

 

Licensing had a small part to play in the clubs reaching a level to compete. Tthe likes of Huddersfield, St.Helens, Wigan and Leeds would have had the stadium and structures anyway with or without the licensing system which was an absolute joke by the end anyway

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Huddersfield have started winning under licencing they were always bottom before that you are missing that the guarantee of top flight helped them assemble a mostly homegrown squad and plan long term.....

Your right Ken Davy has started to win trophies and that is brilliant.

The problem is we have clubs who are jockying to play huddersfield in the playoffs because they know its the easiest way to the next round.Its not right is it?

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Personally, I think licensing has worked in one respect: it has given the opportunity for young players to be brought into first teams throughout the league in a number that would not have been seen had promotion and relegation been retained.  Three years is a great spell to know that you're safe and can take risks with young players. 

 

The whole of the licensing project would have worked far better had it actually been implemented as originally stated (or as reported as being stated anyway!).  But it never was.

Same applies to the original strategy back in 95 re the allocation of funding. That was never upheld so how could we realistically expect the terms of the licensing project to be honoured?

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They were always bottom because they were spared relegation due to the Championship winners being denied promotion. Once they actually were relegated, they got their act together, won promotion and kicked on from there. On their promotion initially there was no three year exemption from promotion. The club could have been relegated the following season.

so under P&R they were saved from relegation several times hmmmm sounds like licensing to me......

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