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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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I can't believe there are people that still want this "half way house" that is licensing. It's not P&R and it's not franchising. It is killing the Super League. Clubs are in more trouble than ever financially. We haven't got a sponsor. Crowds are going down.

Can someone remind me what the point of licensing was again and whether it has achieved any of its goals over 5 years?!

 

Let's not forget that Rugby League doesn't have a planet of its own and is affected by outside factors like recessions.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Errr... what?

The rules are changed in favour of the top clubs? I'm pretty sure this argument is about opening up the SL, and this not in favour of the top clubs?

You think the RFL should have lost all its integrity by letting a club pay to change the rules? What an awful idea. What next? The RFL should have let him pay to be in the Grand Final? (Only the big clubs should be in the finals).

And what clubs are big clubs in a closed shop? Are the League Leaders part if this closed shop? Or should a bigger club be allowed to buy their place out?

Errmmm

 

Firstly Whelen openly said he would pay to remain in SL!

Secondly they overspent the cap (so did Barrow and they got punished far greater!)

Thirdly big clubs are the ones with the money, or potential for money....London have money so the stadia rules dont apply, wigan had money so the salary cap was loosly applied, Hunslet didnt get promoted on stadia the RFL went to town on Barrow.....

 

Its a closed shop weather we like it or not.....any new system will favour the big clubs, the rebellion is to make sure the big boys stay the big boys......

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It's very easy to blame the recession.  I'm not even sure there was one.  I've certainly not seen any evidence of one in my part of the world.

 

Tell that to the unemployed and people on 5 year wage freezes, or who have savings that are being reduced in value....

 

as for your place If its a place with no money then a reduction of money will do very little.............. If its a place with lots of money again you wont notice......

 

As usual its the squeezed middle thats mostly effected!

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It's very easy to blame the recession.  I'm not even sure there was one.  I've certainly not seen any evidence of one in my part of the world.

 

In your part of the world, your council workers at your district council have taken pay cuts to keep your council tax down.

 

Look harder.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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The aussies don't have P&R and ARE world champs...FACT,

Just one question. ...how much of the new talent would have got a chance if P&R been around?

The excuse from coaches before the licence process came in was they couldn't take the risk with blooding to many young players. That excuse will return with P & R.

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Errmmm

Firstly Whelen openly said he would pay to remain in SL!

Secondly they overspent the cap (so did Barrow and they got punished far greater!)

Thirdly big clubs are the ones with the money, or potential for money....London have money so the stadia rules dont apply, wigan had money so the salary cap was loosly applied, Hunslet didnt get promoted on stadia the RFL went to town on Barrow.....

Its a closed shop weather we like it or not.....any new system will favour the big clubs, the rebellion is to make sure the big boys stay the big boys......

If Whelan spent his money more wisely, he wouldn't need to but his place in SL.

SL is about the elite. If you've got money but spend it in the wrong places, you're not in the elite. You're just rich. The day SL becomes just about having money and not about how you spend it to be the best is the day I stop caring. It's not what elite sport is about.

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1. C’mon Parky, there are chairmen in all the clubs in the Pro/Semi Pro leagues and they know there place by the size of their bank balance, a person with interest in investing in a club who has only say a couple of million in collateral should never choose a SL club as an entry point in Chairmanship.I would assume that the richer one is the more ambition they have to get to the top, and that obviously means staying in SL.

 

2. You really surprise me with this statement, if a club loses it’s backing for whatever the reason and cannot pay it’s way and ends up in administration yes it will be sad, but not sad to the point of them being replaced by a club who at the time would be buoyant and deserving of their shot at the big league.

 

3. Seems like you are advocating a real Closed Shop and the member clubs of the first 8 should be protected financially whatever the situation they find themselves in, very much like some opinions I have read on here in another thread re a certain “Big City” club in West Yorkshire. 

 

1. I'm not sure what point your making here Gary but some shall we say "moderately" rich men have had SL ambitions and come and gone over the years. John Wilkinson spent a heck of a lot and walked away. Salford were then destined to fold completely but struck lucky. For me dumbing down Superleague is to try to get some of them to stay.

 

2. Had Wakefield Bradford and London folded these would have been massive blows to the game. had three Championship clubs without money replaced them they too would have faced financial difficulties. Sad all round.

 

It's hard to find buoyant clubs in the lower reaches of the Superleague or the Championship. Certainly Fev have been buoyed up by Mr. Nahaboos promises though so that would not be so bad agreed. If he delivers though.

 

3. The only closed chop I advocate is one that centrally plans the finances of Superleague and attempts to bring together as many of the people involved in the game into SL as possible. However all SL is after 17 years is IMHO a continuation of the old first division and on that basis, and on the basis of a failure of licensing I certainly do not want to see a closed shop.

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It's very easy to blame the recession.  I'm not even sure there was one.  I've certainly not seen any evidence of one in my part of the world.

What's the weather like in brunei?

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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If Whelan spent his money more wisely, he wouldn't need to but his place in SL.

SL is about the elite. If you've got money but spend it in the wrong places, you're not in the elite. You're just rich. The day SL becomes just about having money and not about how you spend it to be the best is the day I stop caring. It's not what elite sport is about.

 

From this I take it you dont care about any elite sport then?

 

Salford are splashing the cash to employ the best players they can, that is the same for any elite sport (man city, chelsea etc...)

 

If the Dr had bought any other club it would be them in Salfords position......Hull KR would be lower league nobody's without Hudgells bucks......

 

Wigan dominated as they bought all the best players.......

 

Elite team sport is all about money.....don't kid yourself!

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From this I take it you dont care about any elite sport then?

Salford are splashing the cash to employ the best players they can, that is the same for any elite sport (man city, chelsea etc...)

If the Dr had bought any other club it would be them in Salfords position......Hull KR would be lower league nobody's without Hudgells bucks......

Wigan dominated as they bought all the best players.......

Elite team sport is all about money.....don't kid yourself!

Again, you've misread what I've put. Elite sport I'm massively in to. It was part of my degree. Elite sport is not just about having money. It's about what you do with it. The day it is just about having money regardless of how you do on the field is the day we don't have an elite competition.

There's a reason why Wigan didn't do so well when everyone else had money as well. They didn't know how to spend it properly.

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Again, you've misread what I've put. Elite sport I'm massively in to. It was part of my degree. Elite sport is not just about having money. It's about what you do with it. The day it is just about having money regardless of how you do on the field is the day we don't have an elite competition.

There's a reason why Wigan didn't do so well when everyone else had money as well. They didn't know how to spend it properly.

 

There is a lot more to running a Elite club than just buying players, It Takes somewhere  around 3 million a year, and as you say it has to be spent wisely. One thing is certain that kind of money sorts out the men from the boys.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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There is a lot more to running a Elite club than just buying players, It Takes somewhere  around 3 million a year, and as you say it has to be spent wisely. One thing is certain that kind of money sorts out the men from the boys.

 

Just a reminder that CKN states it takes a bare minimum of £3,200,000 to run a professional Superleague club and some are spending near double that which most likely accounts for how top SL clubs are so far in front of bottom ones, how CC clubs are miles behind, and what massive sums new directors face to bridge that funding gap.

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The last thing we want is the lower half of SL and the top championship teams spending money they haven.t got.Thats why its imperative that we get the re-structuring right.

My own thougts are 4 divisions of 10 teams (SL1,SL2,Championship northern and Championship Southern. Realistically this is too big a move at present and my second choice is the 2 x 12 and then the 3 x 8 split.

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1. The last thing we want is the lower half of SL and the top championship teams spending money they haven.t got.

2. My own thougts are 4 divisions of 10 teams and my second choice is the 2 x 12 and then the 3 x 8 split.

 

1. Spot on for me. That's probably why two SL clubs are being set adrift and another four will only be required to compete with Championship clubs for promotion whilst the top eight get on with being the Elite. Club chairmen have already backed off trying to catch the big clubs at London, HKR, Widnes, Bradford, Wakefield, Castleford so they won't be sending themselves skint.

 

2. Two leagues of 10 with each playing each other 3 times?? I'd ask you to list who will end up at the bottom of the Elite 10, and who would be at the top of the second tier, and what the financial gap would be between the two leagues.......I think the principle of P & R being unworkable and damaging when one league is so far in front of another may come in here even bigger than now?

Edited by The Parksider
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2. Two leagues of 10 with each playing each other 3 times?? I'd ask you to list who will end up at the bottom of the Elite 10, and who would be at the top of the second tier, and what the financial gap would be between the two leagues.......I think the principle of P & R being unworkable and damaging when one league is so far in front of another may come in here even bigger than now?

Who would be at the bottom and who at the top?Maybe Castleford and Widnes or Hull KR or Bradford.Either way it would bring in more interest than at present.

as you stated when one league is so far in front of another this creates the problem of P and R.Rather than ignore the problem try and solve it.

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2. Two leagues of 10 with each playing each other 3 times?? I'd ask you to list who will end up at the bottom of the Elite 10, and who would be at the top of the second tier, and what the financial gap would be between the two leagues.......I think the principle of P & R being unworkable and damaging when one league is so far in front of another may come in here even bigger than now?

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here? Why would 2x10 lead to bigger gaps between 1st and 2nd tier than 2x12?

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Not sure I understand what you're getting at here? Why would 2x10 lead to bigger gaps between 1st and 2nd tier than 2x12?

We know which clubs are well financed, successful and turning over up to £6,000,000 and more.

Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Saints, Wires, Fartown, Catalans with Salford to add to that list, Featherstone with a promise of annual riches and full cap, maybe even Toulouse with local mega-riches promised..........

We know the clubs that just can't keep up. Bradford were in administration, Wakefield were in Adminsitration, London collapsed almost completely, Chairmen pulling out their continuing private funding at HKR, Widnes, and Castleford. These are not well off clubs, nor are Sheffield, Halifax and Leigh well off.

The unmanageable debt of superleague is mainly with the bottom clubs. these are the clubs who need to sell any players the top clubs will deign to buy, clubs who have to make heavy cost cutting measures, clubs who have talked about the glass ceiling in Superleague that they cannot afford to get above.

IMVHO The glass ceiling isn't between SL and CC anymore it's in Superleague. The have's and the have not's aren't SL clubs and CC clubs anymore. Featherstone who have neven been in SL have far more than Bradford who couldn't stop winning it.

We can't find 14 teams to compete evenly in SL, there isn't the resources. just because they are cutting two doesn't mean two more won't be struggling badly next year.

And so by looking at events and realities and who has what, said what, and who is doing what, then all I observe is a huge gap appearing between the top ten clubs and the rest.

Similarly if you want an immense gap make SL 16 clubs.

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Rather than ignore the problem try and solve it.

Absolutely. I have tried sugesting that the SKY contract is shared 37 ways but that wasn't enough to solve it.

I have suggested giving the clubs at the bottom of the RFL tens of thousands of pounds of SKY money and giving nothing to the top clubs who don't need it and paying the rest on a sliding scale. i.e. The worst you do the more SKY money you get.

SKY won't allow it.

At least I was inclusive.

Mo Lynday was semi inclusive when he suggested trying to cram all the clubs and fans as possible into one elite league. IIRC he managed to plan for 17 clubs to be crammed into 10 places alongside Paris and London.

But finding a solution for 37 clubs from those with 15,000 crowds and 15 internationals to those with 150 crowds and nobody of note on their playing registers seems to be beyond everyone in the game?

Any suggestion?

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We know which clubs are well financed, successful and turning over up to £6,000,000 and more.

Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Saints, Wires, Fartown, Catalans with Salford to add to that list, Featherstone with a promise of annual riches and full cap, maybe even Toulouse with local mega-riches promised..........

We know the clubs that just can't keep up. Bradford were in administration, Wakefield were in Adminsitration, London collapsed almost completely, Chairmen pulling out their continuing private funding at HKR, Widnes, and Castleford. These are not well off clubs, nor are Sheffield, Halifax and Leigh well off.

The unmanageable debt of superleague is mainly with the bottom clubs. these are the clubs who need to sell any players the top clubs will deign to buy, clubs who have to make heavy cost cutting measures, clubs who have talked about the glass ceiling in Superleague that they cannot afford to get above.

IMVHO The glass ceiling isn't between SL and CC anymore it's in Superleague. The have's and the have not's aren't SL clubs and CC clubs anymore. Featherstone who have neven been in SL have far more than Bradford who couldn't stop winning it.

We can't find 14 teams to compete evenly in SL, there isn't the resources. just because they are cutting two doesn't mean two more won't be struggling badly next year.

And so by looking at events and realities and who has what, said what, and who is doing what, then all I observe is a huge gap appearing between the top ten clubs and the rest.

Similarly if you want an immense gap make SL 16 clubs.

But those clubs aren't fixed though. That's the thing. People keep making out that these power clubs are in a closed shop, when in reality clubs are joining them and clubs are leaving.

The financially struggling clubs aren't always the same.

Were Hull, Warrington, Catalans and Huddersfield a part of this "power club" closed shop 10 years ago?

Were Bradford in the doldrums?

London have been up and down faster than a fiddler's elbow.

Salford have gone from the very bottom of financial crisis to the very top with the power makers in the space of less than a season.

Is it Super League that is causing this? Or is it just sport at this level? Some clubs have it, some don't. Isn't that part of sport anyway? Why can't we let clubs find their own level rather than artificially placing them and protecting them? How do we know if we're protecting the right clubs and not just propping up failure?

If you make the league smaller, there will always be someone struggling. That's sport! Why we feel the need to take this competitive part of sport away I don't know. There are winners and losers. Get on with it!

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Its a shambles.

What the format is will decide this games future in a few years time.

 

All of the combinations look like desperate stuff to try and appease everyone..

What happened to the last plan? Clubs given guarantees to not be relegated and build their juniors and set some foundations.

It did not work out?

 

What England does next year will set the game in the Northern Hemisphere for years if not decades, I worry about it, still there is always SOO :-)

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What England does next year will set the game in the Northern Hemisphere for years if not decades, I worry about it

You mean like it did last time? And the time before that? And the time before that?

I think some people just want the game to die so that they were right that they thought the game was going to die!

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Its a shambles. What the format is will decide this games future in a few years time.

All of the combinations look like desperate stuff to try and appease everyone..

What happened to the last plan? Clubs given guarantees to not be relegated and build their Juniors and set some foundations.It did not work out?

It didn't work out did it.

The right format for the future of the game has to be IMVHO one that suits the Superleague contract which in turn is the foundation of the game. It's the contract that decides the basic format and at the moment SKY seem to be allowing a variance of the contract down to 12 clubs receiving big money evenly, and up to four clubs being allowed to lose their SL places each year

The SL format has never been a fixed number of certain clubs and some like my good friend Mr. Keighley keep perpetrating the myth that SL is such. As long as there are rich men capable of coming in with their clubs and a need to let those clubs who collapse out, then of course there must be a mechanism for this. Who said otherwise?

All the P & R/licensing stuff seems to be down to the RFL & the clubs to muck about with. As It stands SKY seem to be happy to ensure a few elite clubs remain to deliver the contract, but as another poster set out in fine detail unhappy to pay our game any more money.

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