The NHS Debate (Merged threads)

[Saintslass]

But the "ringfenced" budget has not been growing at the rate it should have done to keep up with demand and with health inflation.

At what rate should funding for the NHS grow?  5%? 10%? 50%?  The NHS will spend whatever you throw at it but that doesn't mean you should throw everything at it. 

 

 

You can say what you like, under Labour health spending, rightly or wrongly increased and the service got better - immeasurably better,

I beg to differ.

[Saintslass]

Yes.  The GP contract has immunisation written into it, it has had this for a long time.  As a passive service.  GPs can remove patients from their list who won't give their children innoculations.  That completely misses the point of having a proactive service that goes into all the little community groups, drives peer pressure, drives the GPs to get their patients served rather than abandoned.  It's what has the herd immunity of the country at the level it is and this will fail.

I think the proposed system needs to be given time.  I'm not sure anyone can say for certain that something will fail before it has even begun.

[Just Browny]

Isn't that the same principle the government is trying to operate under by bringing down the deficit? Surely that is simply good financial management, to operate a surplus so that you have something in the kitty for when the going gets tough?

What I'd like to know, the fact and not the political propoganda I mean, is why all of a sudden, when the cuts have been going since 2010, but the NHS has been a ringfenced budget throughout (acknowledged by all but keyboard warriors of a certain political persuasion) almost all NHS trusts are apparently now running massive deficits? I find it strange that these claims of deficits have coincided with the first Tory government in 20 years AND when that same Tory government has just lobbed in yet another multiple million pound boost to help the behemoth through the winter.

I smell a rat, personally, and I'd very much like to see some impartial, objective and accurate figures. I'd also like to know more about how Trusts and individual hospitals are managed because I suspect it is in the management where the problems mainly lie - like in the wholesale use of ridiculously expensive agencies to cover gaps in service provision when the much cheaper old fashioned approach of bank staff would have been a far wiser means of covering shortfalls (and now that there is a cap on agency spend that should assist in bringing one area of ridiculous spending under control - just a pity the government had to intercede).

I think there is a fair bit of mismanagement inside hospitals, and a fair amount could be saved by better procurement and staffing etc. The agency point is an important one, but the main reason for that is the lack of supply of nurses versus the demand. Still, even if you fixed those elements you wouldn't bridge a £22bn funding gap.

The main reasons for the rising pressures, despite a ring-fenced NHS budget, are probably two-fold. Firstly, demand for services has risen and is rising at a hell of a rate. Yes, because of an ageing population, and indeed because of a rise in diabetes etc, but also because the old-fashioned GP-hospital system doesn't work anymore and because the social and community care sectors are a disaster. That means that far too many people are lying in hospital beds when they don't really need acute care (which costs £££££).

[Trojan]

At what rate should funding for the NHS grow?  5%? 10%? 50%?  The NHS will spend whatever you throw at it but that doesn't mean you should throw everything at it. 

 

I beg to differ.

Well you'd be on your own then.

[JohnM]

no she wouldn't.

[Phil]

no she wouldn't.

You are Saintslass and I claim my £5 (worth about 1.78 factoring in all the ######)

[JohnM]

####### is what makes plants grow. It develops strong roots, vigorous growth, healthy foliage and fecundity. .

whereas the glyphosate of anarchism and the paraquat of socialaism kiils enterprse and sours the soil for future generations

[Phil]

####### is what makes plants grow. It develops strong roots, vigorous growth, healthy foliage and fecundity. .

whereas the glyphosate of anarchism and the paraquat of socialaism kiils enterprse and sours the soil for future generations

[Robin Evans]

####### is what makes plants grow. It develops strong roots, vigorous growth, healthy foliage and fecundity. .

whereas the glyphosate of anarchism and the paraquat of socialaism kiils enterprse and sours the soil for future generations

Jesus H Arkwright

[Phil]

Jesus H Arkwright

Indeed

[Saintslass]

####### is what makes plants grow. It develops strong roots, vigorous growth, healthy foliage and fecundity. .

whereas the glyphosate of anarchism and the paraquat of socialaism kiils enterprse and sours the soil for future generations

[Trojan]

Indeed

Presumably they actually believe that stuff.

[JohnM]

Thats the problem the left has with democracy...its fine if the voters were ever to agree with them, but when they don't, blame the voters.

[Griff9of13]

Thats the problem the left has with democracy...its fine if the voters were ever to agree with them, but when they don't, blame the voters.

 

Eh?

 

Don't you think it's a bit early to be hitting the hard stuff?

[Trojan]

Thats the problem the left has with democracy...its fine if the voters were ever to agree with them, but when they don't, blame the voters.

Isn't that what Nigel was doing last week?  I'd hardly describe him as a man of the left.

[Trojan]

To get back to the original subject of this thread, I can only speak from personal experience.  During the eighties the NHS deteriorated really badly, in the early naughties things got unbelievably better.  And now we appear to be back to the eighties standards.

[GeordieSaint]

To get back to the original subject of this thread, I can only speak from personal experience.  During the eighties the NHS deteriorated really badly, in the early naughties things got unbelievably better.  And now we appear to be back to the eighties standards.

I guess everyone's experiences are different; I suffer from a blood disorder which if not treated probably would kill me in the long term. The service since 2011 at Hillingdon Hospital near Uxbridge has always been good and continues to be so. Don't get me wrong, they are busy people with lots of cancer patients needing their service as well as frauds like me. I have never heard any patients visiting the service complain about any issues regarding the service or waiting times. The staff are always incredibly accommodating and helpful. Clearly this isn't the case everywhere but sort of highlights my first sentence.

[Moose]

To get back to the original subject of this thread, I can only speak from personal experience.  During the eighties the NHS deteriorated really badly, in the early naughties things got unbelievably better.  And now we appear to be back to the eighties standards.

I too must disagree with you. I also speak from personal experience in my numerous visits to both my doctor's surgery and Pinderfields Hospital and have at all times been seen and treated on time and at my convenience. In the last two years I have been successfully treated for skin cancer and heart problems, both times at Pinderfields and paid numerous visits to my doctors for blood tests, flu jab, an aorta scan etc.

Fortunately my opinion is not soured or blinded by political dogma, I realised at an early age after being brought up in politically divided household that neither my mother ( a Conservative voter) nor my father ( a committed Socialist) could both be right about everything at the same time.

[Trojan]

I too must disagree with you. I also speak from personal experience in my numerous visits to both my doctor's surgery and Pinderfields Hospital and have at all times been seen and treated on time and at my convenience. In the last two years I have been successfully treated for skin cancer and heart problems, both times at Pinderfields and paid numerous visits to my doctors for blood tests, flu jab, an aorta scan etc.

Fortunately my opinion is not soured or blinded by political dogma, I realised at an early age after being brought up in politically divided household that neither my mother ( a Conservative voter) nor my father ( a committed Socialist) could both be right about everything at the same time.

My treatment for pressure in the eye is not life threatening, but if not monitored I could go blind, not an appealing prospect, but up until 2011 the treatment was exemplary. Since the standard of care had rapidly declined.  Last year I had to get my MP to intervene to secure me what up until then had been a routine appointment.  In May 2015 I was informed the pressure was increasing and the consultant said he wanted to see me in 6 months.  I'm still waiting.

[WearyRhino]

I realised at an early age after being brought up in politically divided household that neither my mother ( a Conservative voter) nor my father ( a committed Socialist) could both be right about everything at the same time.

You've created a false dichotomy. You're Dad was right all of the time.

[Moose]

You've created a false dichotomy. You're Dad was right all of the time.

You obviously didn't know my mother.

[Saintslass]

My treatment for pressure in the eye is not life threatening, but if not monitored I could go blind, not an appealing prospect, but up until 2011 the treatment was exemplary. Since the standard of care had rapidly declined.  Last year I had to get my MP to intervene to secure me what up until then had been a routine appointment.  In May 2015 I was informed the pressure was increasing and the consultant said he wanted to see me in 6 months.  I'm still waiting.

Whereas my Dad was taken to hospital in 2007 with his first ever nosebleed.  Big chunks of the stuff were coming from his nose and it just wouldn't stop.  He was stuck on a trolley in a corridor for almost 7 hours - 7 hours - hooked up to something or other so he couldn't just get off the trolley to go to the loo and at no time during that time did a nurse query how he was or even offer him a drink. He was in his early 70s at the time and he wasn't the only one on a trolley in A&E with nobody asking after them either.  I know because me and Mum left him there for the night and returned in the morning and the same people were still on trollies in the corridor.

 

Contrast that to his skin cancer treatment during the last five years and the two experiences couldn't have been more different.  But then the hospitals were different and that, IMO, is the key.

[tonyXIII]

My treatment for pressure in the eye is not life threatening, but if not monitored I could go blind, not an appealing prospect, but up until 2011 the treatment was exemplary. Since the standard of care had rapidly declined.  Last year I had to get my MP to intervene to secure me what up until then had been a routine appointment.  In May 2015 I was informed the pressure was increasing and the consultant said he wanted to see me in 6 months.  I'm still waiting.

 

The six months are up. Time to get proactive. Phone up, drop in, write to them. In many such situations, those who bellyache the most get seen first. It shouldn't work like that, but it often does. At the very least you need to speak to someone for reassurance.

[Trojan]

The six months are up. Time to get proactive. Phone up, drop in, write to them. In many such situations, those who bellyache the most get seen first. It shouldn't work like that, but it often does. At the very least you need to speak to someone for reassurance.

You're right of course and that's what I intend to do.  But as you say it shouldn't be like that, and my point is that it wasn't like that up to 2011.

[Trojan]

Whereas my Dad was taken to hospital in 2007 with his first ever nosebleed.  Big chunks of the stuff were coming from his nose and it just wouldn't stop.  He was stuck on a trolley in a corridor for almost 7 hours - 7 hours - hooked up to something or other so he couldn't just get off the trolley to go to the loo and at no time during that time did a nurse query how he was or even offer him a drink. He was in his early 70s at the time and he wasn't the only one on a trolley in A&E with nobody asking after them either.  I know because me and Mum left him there for the night and returned in the morning and the same people were still on trollies in the corridor.

 

Contrast that to his skin cancer treatment during the last five years and the two experiences couldn't have been more different.  But then the hospitals were different and that, IMO, is the key.

Well it sounds like your dad had a bad time. But the fact remains that when this government came to power in 2010 satisfaction with the NHS was at an all time high, and waiting times on trolleys or otherwise were at an all time low.  The reverse is now generally the case.