The NHS Debate (Merged threads)

[ckn]

Who said it should have increased by 3% per annum? 

 

The NHS is still here today.  It survived Thatcher, who was apparently going to privatise it; it survived a LibDem/Tory coalition (and the Tory part of it was apparently going to privatise it) and now it is getting an increase in funds on an annual basis from this Tory government, which apparently is going to privatise it.

 

I long since closed my ears to the propoganda purported by the left.  It's nonsense. 

Are the government's own statistics bases left-wing propaganda outlets?  Just spend a bit of time on the HSCIC publications list and you'll see year after year and service after service degradation of care from 2010 onwards.  Waiting lists extending including this year the first persistent >1yr waiting lists since the 1990s.  Numbers of treatments reducing despite number of reported incidents increasing.  Bed availability dropping below winter emergency levels even in summer.  Bed numbers for specific illnesses dropping.  General bed numbers dropping. Mental health bed numbers dropping almost at the same rate as demand for acute inpatient need increasing.  Available ambulances dropping below emergency levels due to absolute numbers being reduced. 2nd-line health emergency service interventions increasing (police and fire) because no NHS resources available.  Private hospital beds being used by NHS increasing in double digit percentages per year with a cause of "no NHS bed available in England".  I could go on but I won't as I'm off to bed with a book and a whisky.

 

Don't like HSCIC because it's a DoH source?  What about the ONS?

 

Feel free.  Go through them.  Official government releases sanctioned by two different ministries.  Critique them if you must but please give workings to disprove the government's own figures.  No need for the "left" to add any commentary, the figures say enough in themselves.

[Alfie Taylor]

Funny really, if the NHS has always been this bad, how come satisfaction with it was at an all time high in 2010?

It seems the only people saying the NHS is "this bad" are the "we hate Tories" brigade.

Satisfaction ratings started in 1983. They reached their peak of 70% satisfied in 2010. In 2009 the satisfaction rating was 62%. In 2014, after 4 years of the Tories "dismantling" it, the satisfaction rating plummeted to 65% and in the same year the level of dissatisfaction with the NHS somehow fell to an all time low of 15%. I can't only assume those surveyed in 2014 were members of Jeremy Hunts family and friends.

[Alfie Taylor]

How come Cameron was anxious to neutralise Labour's electoral advantage on the NHS by (misleadingly) pledging to ring fence NHS spending? How come as soon as he got in he broke that pledge and said they were looking for £20b "savings" (cuts in other words)

On 16th June 2010 an article in the Guardian had several quotes from the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy "has anyone seen my spine" Burnham. One of them was this, "It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms..."

The article also said

"During the last general election Labour said it would increase spending on front line services in the NHS only in line with inflation. In addition, the Labour government proposed finding £15bn-£20bn in "efficiency savings" to try to relieve the extra pressure on the NHS.

[Trojan]

Who said it should have increased by 3% per annum? 

 

The NHS is still here today.  It survived Thatcher, who was apparently going to privatise it; it survived a LibDem/Tory coalition (and the Tory part of it was apparently going to privatise it) and now it is getting an increase in funds on an annual basis from this Tory government, which apparently is going to privatise it.

 

I long since closed my ears to the propoganda purported by the left.  It's nonsense. 

Well if you won't listen then you deserve all you get.  I'll quote you an example of something that happened under the Thatcher regime. My son was knocked down by a motorbike, he had a head and a leg injury.  Head injuries shouldn't be left, (as Natasha Richardson found out to her cost) we waited in A & E, three hours for a radiographer to come in a taxi from another hospital. As it happened my son was ok, but he could have been dead in that time.  That's how bad things were under Thatcher.   Emergency cases being moved from Stockport to Leeds, and Wetherby to Hull because there were no beds. You really do need to get out of this Saints "my team right or wrong" attitude when it comes to politics.  It has nothing to do with "left - right" arguments and everything to do with what's right for the majority of the people of this country.   Cameron and his gang really don't give a about the NHS, what they care about is staying in power so they can feather their own and their cronies' nests.  It's always been the case.  Shrinking the state means making more moolah available for the fat cats.  That's what it's all about really. Always has been

[Alfie Taylor]

General bed numbers dropping.

Sorry, not got the time to go through all that but bed numbers seems to be your bete noire.

Bed numbers have been falling for decades. You recently linked to an article in the Independent claiming the NHS was collapsing around our ears or something, in it, as you well know having read it, it shows how bed numbers have been falling across all countries bar Greece and one other state.

Unfortunately, it's all down to our pesky habit of improving healthcare so we don't actually need as many beds as we once did, operations that could keep you in for a couple of days can now be done and have you home in a few hours.

"Ambulatory care" is another one, not actually sure what it means but a radiologist at the Christie told me it when I asked her about bed numbers.

Plus, we really, really don't want huge buildings full of sick people.

Still, we could always make it party political.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/

In 1997 there was 200,000 available beds, by 2010 this had dropped to 158,000. The number now sits at 130,000. So it's fair to say if someone voted Labour from 97 - 10 they really are in no position to be claiming some sort of moral high ground.

[Griff9of13]

Sorry, not got the time to go through all that but bed numbers seems to be your bete noire.

Bed numbers have been falling for decades. You recently linked to an article in the Independent claiming the NHS was collapsing around our ears or something, in it, as you well know having read it, it shows how bed numbers have been falling across all countries bar Greece and one other state.

Unfortunately, it's all down to our pesky habit of improving healthcare so we don't actually need as many beds as we once did, operations that could keep you in for a couple of days can now be done and have you home in a few hours.

"Ambulatory care" is another one, not actually sure what it means but a radiologist at the Christie told me it when I asked her about bed numbers.

Plus, we really, really don't want huge buildings full of sick people.

Still, we could always make it party political.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/

In 1997 there was 200,000 available beds, by 2010 this had dropped to 158,000. The number now sits at 130,000. So it's fair to say if someone voted Labour from 97 - 10 they really are in no position to be claiming some sort of moral high ground.

 

You are right, hospitals are bad for you and the best outcomes are achieved with the shortest possible stay and would be a good argument if there hadn't been such savage cuts in social care resulting in huge numbers of elderly patients not being discharged when no longer in need of hospital care. I've been working in the NHS recently and lack of beds really is an issue, especially in winter time. 

[gingerjon]

Their salaries are just fine given that they are in fact trainees, and trainees should never earn what experienced people earn, especially in a profession which requires the breadth of knowledge and skills as that of a doctor.

 

I can only assume you're talking about junior doctors here which covers every level of post up to consultant.  The majority of those are qualified doctors.

 

One of the key issues with the Hunt's proposed contract is that it penalises 'trainees' who actively seek out that breadth and knowledge.

[gingerjon]

According to leftwingers the NHS is always 'going to hell in a handcart', except of course when Labour is in power!

 

It's good that you ignored the other points in the post pointing out that the pre-election lying about the NHS fits an established pattern of the Osborne government lying to the electorate.

 

We'll see today what more is going to get squeezed.  Presumably, in order to keep the Tory-voting client-state grey-heads from not dying between now and 2020 their bits of the NHS will be further protected but things like - oh, I don't know - the rare cancer drug fund will continue to be cut.

 

The NHS here have pared back their children's services to - essentially - only providing support for the most immediately behaviourally challenging.  Everybody else gets a photocopied sheet with recommendations.

[Griff9of13]

Oh yes, it's all going swimmingly in the NHS at the moment: Leeds cancer patient told to pay £1,400 chemotherapy bill - or go elsewhere for treatment

[Alfie Taylor]

Oh yes, it's all going swimmingly in the NHS at the moment: Leeds cancer patient told to pay £1,400 chemotherapy bill - or go elsewhere for treatment

A true Yorkshireman. Dig your heels in, never mind the damn thing will kill you, but for the sake of 20 miles and not having to pay £1400 you take the moral high ground.

The mis diagnosis is the issue here, the treatment is available just not where he was born.

If I produce a press cutting that shows someone who had a great time in hospital, will that mean you acknowledge the NHS is in fact doing exceptionally well with no issues whatsoever?

[Saintslass]

Oh yes, it's all going swimmingly in the NHS at the moment: Leeds cancer patient told to pay £1,400 chemotherapy bill - or go elsewhere for treatment

That story is about a Leeds hospital not informing a patient that the treatment they were offering to him is one that is not routinely funded by the NHS at present because it's very new.  So the hospital apologised and all is now well.  He will simply have other treatment instead.  Mismanagement by a local hospital, how surprising!

[Trojan]

That story is about a Leeds hospital not informing a patient that the treatment they were offering to him is one that is not routinely funded by the NHS at present because it's very new.  So the hospital apologised and all is now well.  He will simply have other treatment instead.  Mismanagement by a local hospital, how surprising!

Except of course St James (Jimmy's) is not a "local hospital" It's a major teaching hospital for the North of England.

[Saintslass]

Except of course St James (Jimmy's) is not a "local hospital" It's a major teaching hospital for the North of England.

It's local to Leeds and the patient lived in Leeds, in fact was born in the very hospital.  I'm not sure what part of 'local' criteria the hospital does not meet?  Being a teaching hospital doesn't stop it from making mistakes, and clearly on this occasion it made a mistake.  Hardly news.  'Hospital makes mistake'.  You could write that headline every day all over the country!

[gingerjon]

There are a lot of gaps in that story.

[Scubby]

I can only assume you're talking about junior doctors here which covers every level of post up to consultant.  The majority of those are qualified doctors.

 

One of the key issues with the Hunt's proposed contract is that it penalises 'trainees' who actively seek out that breadth and knowledge.

 

This is a really popular misconception. Many think they are talking about F1s and F2s when mentioning Junior doctors. My daughter is 3 years into a six year medical degree and could still be a junior doctor in 2028 - when she would be 33.

[Griff9of13]

Troubled by embarrassing statistics? No problem, just change the statistics so they no longer look so bad. 

 

"From 11 December A&E waiting times, ambulance delays outside hospitals, last-minute cancellation of operations and the number of patients left on trolleys for longer than four hours will be removed from updates.

The announcements will also be made monthly, rather than every week as they have been in the past.

Meanwhile, the Government has shortened the period it counts as 'winter' by a month, meaning statistics for the season will be more difficult to compare with previous years."

Not all bad I suppose; many will be happy that winter is now officially a month shorter.

[gazza77]

Troubled by embarrassing statistics? No problem, just change the statistics so they no longer look so bad.

"From 11 December A&E waiting times, ambulance delays outside hospitals, last-minute cancellation of operations and the number of patients left on trolleys for longer than four hours will be removed from updates.

The announcements will also be made monthly, rather than every week as they have been in the past.

Meanwhile, the Government has shortened the period it counts as 'winter' by a month, meaning statistics for the season will be more difficult to compare with previous years."

Not all bad I suppose; many will be happy that winter is now officially a month shorter.

Strange how winter is officially a month shorter. If you asked most acute providers, I suspect that it would be nearer 12 months long.

[gingerjon]

many will be happy that winter is now officially a month shorter.

 

Always sunshine in Cameron's Britain.

[Just Browny]

Always sunshine in Cameron's Britain.

Gives Gideon more time to mend the roof.

[Bob8]

Who said it should have increased by 3% per annum? 

 

The NHS is still here today.  It survived Thatcher, who was apparently going to privatise it; it survived a LibDem/Tory coalition (and the Tory part of it was apparently going to privatise it) and now it is getting an increase in funds on an annual basis from this Tory government, which apparently is going to privatise it.

 

I long since closed my ears to the propoganda purported by the left.  It's nonsense. 

Well, you have long since closed off your ears certainly.  A number of nurses in my family certainly had the contrary impression, and said that it was not obvious from the outside the extent to which the increase in funding under Blair made a difference.  You can not maintain things properly for ten years and get away with it.  After twenty, things would have fallen to bits very badly.

[Robin Evans]

The nhs of thatch and the nhs of today are two very different places. Almost every facet of the nhs was operated under public ownership.

Slice by slice, bit by bit, the nhs has been sold off. Canteens, restaurants, transport, training depts & walk-in centres. Some whole trusts are now operated privately. The tories have been going about privatising the nhs on the quiet for 30 years....

From a personal perspective, things improved under Blair, particularly in nurse education and development and the service in the LD field.

These last 5 years have been horrible.

On Friday my wife leaves her clinical lead role in community nursing. After 37 years she's seen lots of changes but has concluded that the last 5 or so years has seen patient care eroded so much and capacity on nursing increased to beyond safe deliverable standards, that it's time to say enough.

I plough on.... cos I have to. The huge enjoyment of work I experienced has gone now.

[Alfie Taylor]

Some whole trusts are now operated privately. The tories have been going about privatising the nhs on the quiet for 30 years...

Except, for 13 of those years we had a Labour government who carried on the work of Thatcher, and went further.

We all remember Newsnight when Burnham was confronted with the fact that Labour had flogged off more of the NHS than the Tories ever had.

And now Labour MPs and voters hope people don't remember this, but we do, and the sheer hypocrisy is laughable.

If you've voted Labour from 97 onwards you've voted to sell it off, dismantle it or whatever words you use when talking about the Tories. So please don't whine about the Tories doing exactly what you've been voting for for years.

According to the Kings Fund from 19th March this year.

"About 10% of NHS spend on health services is no non NHS providers which includes for profit, local authorities, social enterprises, charities and community interest companies.

There has been growth in non NHS provision of care, but THERE HAS BEEN NO WHOLESALE PRIVATISATION OF THE NHS"

[Trojan]

Except, for 13 of those years we had a Labour government who carried on the work of Thatcher, and went further.

We all remember Newsnight when Burnham was confronted with the fact that Labour had flogged off more of the NHS than the Tories ever had.

And now Labour MPs and voters hope people don't remember this, but we do, and the sheer hypocrisy is laughable.

If you've voted Labour from 97 onwards you've voted to sell it off, dismantle it or whatever words you use when talking about the Tories. So please don't whine about the Tories doing exactly what you've been voting for for years.

According to the Kings Fund from 19th March this year.

"About 10% of NHS spend on health services is no non NHS providers which includes for profit, local authorities, social enterprises, charities and community interest companies.

There has been growth in non NHS provision of care, but THERE HAS BEEN NO WHOLESALE PRIVATISATION OF THE NHS"

Do you only read the bits of posts that you agree with?  The NHS was in recovery under Blair/Brown, now it's back in the ICU.  You lot really are deaf and blind aren't you?  The NHS is in a mess and will rapidly be back where it was in 1997, a basket case.   Gideon may be fixing the roof but it's the foundations that are crumbling.

[Griff9of13]

The nhs of thatch and the nhs of today are two very different places. Almost every facet of the nhs was operated under public ownership.

Slice by slice, bit by bit, the nhs has been sold off. Canteens, restaurants, transport, training depts & walk-in centres. Some whole trusts are now operated privately. The tories have been going about privatising the nhs on the quiet for 30 years....

From a personal perspective, things improved under Blair, particularly in nurse education and development and the service in the LD field.

These last 5 years have been horrible.

On Friday my wife leaves her clinical lead role in community nursing. After 37 years she's seen lots of changes but has concluded that the last 5 or so years has seen patient care eroded so much and capacity on nursing increased to beyond safe deliverable standards, that it's time to say enough.

I plough on.... cos I have to. The huge enjoyment of work I experienced has gone now.

 

I was about to post "someone will be along shortly to tell you that, despite you and your wife's lifetime of experience working in the NHS, you don't know what you're talking about." But I had to nip out for a few minutes before I got the chance and it seems I've been beaten to it. ^^

[Alfie Taylor]

Do you only read the bits of posts that you agree with? The NHS was in recovery under Blair/Brown, now it's back in the ICU. You lot really are deaf and blind aren't you? The NHS is in a mess and will rapidly be back where it was in 1997, a basket case. Gideon may be fixing the roof but it's the foundations that are crumbling.

The problem is we're not deaf and blind, we know. We can read and see perfectly well, so we can read and see the lies from Labour and it's voters.

Who to believe, the Kings Fund who will do proper research, have actual figures to hand etc or a you. It's a tough one.

Here's another, Sweden, that bastion of social goodness has flogged off 15% (maybe more now) of its health service to private providers. We should really be aiming for that.

If you voted Labour, you've voted to flog off the NHS to millionaire friends of the Tories, still I'm sure you can square that circle.