14 Nov: 3rd Test - England v New Zealand (Wigan, KO 1pm) Match Thread

[Futtocks]

Well we won and there was strong defence on show , but my word we've an awful lot to improve to match it at the very top table . We were hanging on against a team shorn of key players , and our work with the ball is still far to stilted . We clambered over the line but it looks like we are fearful of grasping the moment and taking it on . I hope that sees the back of Big Mac and we get a coach to move us on again . Full strength nz and Oz teams would tear us apart

It looked a bit nervy in the last 5-8 minutes, but this time, we didn't throw it all away. That's a big tick in the self-belief book. Amazing what a trophy can do.

 

Yes, we and the Kiwis will have to be better in the 4 Nations, because I think Australia will be a more sorted team by then. But you can only beat the teams who choose to play.

[DavidM]

Indeed . I felt quite a few times the door was there for us to kick in , but we often look a bit tentative . When these sides really unleash with the ball it is more a struggle for us , and our offence looks more straight jacketed . Did a back score a try ? I'm relieved , but I do feel we need someone to freshen us up and give us another dimension . They were far from full strength in playmaking , and I think we have still a fair way to go in the bigger picture

[Futtocks]

Indeed . I felt quite a few times the door was there for us to kick in , but we often look a bit tentative . When these sides really unleash with the ball it is more a struggle for us , and our offence looks more straight jacketed . Did a back score a try ? I'm relieved , but I do feel we need someone to freshen us up and give us another dimension . They were far from full strength in playmaking , and I think we have still a fair way to go in the bigger picture

I don't think an English back scored a try in the series. The Widdop/Smith combination might have opened things up last Saturday, though.

 

Williams will be one of the younger halves who should come good in the near future, but he wasn't the answer this time.

 

Watkins is a good player who had a poor series, but shouldn't be written off. He'll be more disappointed with his handling errors than anyone.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

Thought Whitehead or Widdop should have got man of match award. 

How pants is Watkins these days?  Commentary continue to big him up on his form of two years ago!

[Scubby]

I don't think an English back scored a try in the series. The Widdop/Smith combination might have opened things up last Saturday, though.

 

Williams will be one of the younger halves who should come good in the near future, but he wasn't the answer this time.

 

We have to put things in perspective that a selection was made for a wet weather game in a series decider. I am concerned that in last year's 4N the try scorers in the backs were Shenton, Watkins x2, Sam Tomkins, Hall x3, Charnley. This series zilch tries from the backline!

[Marshman67]

As much as I would have liked Gale to play Smith was clearly the best half we've had this series and did have a top game. Probably the difference between the teams.

Our forwards certainly didn't look second best but we do look light in the centres.

Bateman, although always gives his best, is too small to be an international forward and not skillful enough to be a international back.

Watkins just had an off day today.

Macnamara got away with it by the skin of his teeth

[Scubby]

Mike Cooper has been fantastic. This lad has improved beyond all recognition.

[DavidM]

Fair points there chief . I just don't feel Big Mac is squeezing out as much as we can get

[Futtocks]

On the other side, Nikorima has taken his opportunity and looks very promising. I've hardly seen him play club Rugby at all, so I was looking forward to see what he could do. 

[DavidM]

Wayne Bennett is a huge fan of his . Certainly has that X factor doesn't he ?

[Guest]

Thought Whitehead or Widdop should have got man of match award. 

How pants is Watkins these days?  Commentary continue to big him up on his form of two years ago!

Watkins is a great player but for whatever reasons he had a very poor international series.

[DavidM]

I was wondering why Dave woods kept saying that if it was a draw we win the series . I understand retaining the trophy ... But winning this series ??

[EagleEyePie]

It was good to see England get the win as that's the most important thing for this series. It would be silly to get carried away and bang on about our achievements of beating the world champions because we know they were a shadow of the team they are when they don't have such injuries. The losses of Johnson and Foran were the key. Hiku and Nikorima (and Lolohea) are not international quality halves and it showed throughout the series, although Nikorima shows huge promise. New Zealand have two halves of top quality but not the depth that Australia has to cope with injuries. That is changing over time though. Ultimately though they couldn't cope with those two missing. I'm surprised Marshall wasn't called up as I think he would have been a more viable option that Lolohea was.

 

England were good in parts. The pack played well as it often does at this level and Hodgson and Roby worked well at hooker.

 

What's painfully obvious is that England still lacks quality in the halves. Widdop is considered some sort of saviour for England because he plays in the NRL but was the biggest disappointment by far. He lacked creativity, particularly with his passing. Williams is a great prospect but shouldn't never have been thrown in at the deep end. It was also a stupid decision to play him on the right when he's always played left side. Still, the only moments of influential creative passing from an England half came from Williams in the first test when he slipped a lovely short pass to Ferres and when he created a huge gap for Whitehead with a reverse flick pass in the build up to Hodgson's try.

 

Smith's inclusion was a smart one, but we can't rely on it to rain every time we play a test and if Wigan fans have learned anything about Smith this season it's that he only seems to play well when it's wet and he can use he only real weapon, his kicking game (see the Challenge Cup final win over Hull as evidence of Smith's last 'quality' performance. When conditions are good he's exposed for having no running game and nothing in the way of creative passing ability. Last year Widdop and Smith were criticised for being too similar because neither were willing to take the line on. Nothing has changed. In good weather we'd be back to the same situation.

 

McGillvary had a good debut. His strength and aggression really suited the conditions. I can understand Burgess being picked given the qualities that he brings. He's a better all round player than McGillvary (he has fantastic handling ability) but his form has been poor since getting injured around August this year. At the end of the year Manfredi and McGillvary were the form wingers, Burgess was off the pace. McGillvary is great to watch and a real handful. 

 

Hardaker was good but didn't offer as much as Tomkins has done in attack, which many predicted, but he did put in some good tackles in defence and was solid at the back. He's a good option and hopefully they will battle it out for the number 1 shirt next season.

 

The back row is still lacking in real quality but I thought Whitehead, Farrell and Ferres all performed as well as can be expected. I thought Whitehead in particular had good game in particular. Not sure any of them are top quality but Whitehead and Farrell have time on their side and Bateman and Currie have huge potential, so there's no immediate worry.

 

The 'middles' were strong but Cooper deserves particular praise. He's come on leaps and bounds since he's moved to the NRL. O'Loughlin showed his value throughout the tournament but we need to find a player to replace him soon. There aren't many who could replace him like for like although maybe Joe Westerman's move to Wire will help him fulfil his potential.

 

All in all, England were quite good, New Zealand battled well and improvised a decent game plan since they were lacking two quality halves. There's still a lot of work to do for England but I do think the team is getting better.

[Futtocks]

I was wondering why Dave woods kept saying that if it was a draw we win the series . I understand retaining the trophy ... But winning this series ??

Aggregate points? We had a bigger win in Hull than they did in London. Only a guess - he may have just mixed up what he meant to say.

[amm]

7 hours -  5 travelling - I kid ye not - all in the rain, but great to say 'I was there'

 

Wigan is an awful place to get in to, not as bad getting out, just heard Lizzie as we entered the ground and caught the end of the Haka taking my seat. Lee had nipped to the gents, and then AWOL...10 mins later I phone him and he's right at the top with the band. Thought we were row JJ not J.....couldn't see the big screen for the decisions as were were just behind and to the right of it ...but all in all really pleased to have been.

 

Ifs, buts and maybes about the performance eg Jerry being robbed of two try opportunities by his centre, man of series eh? , one up rugby, flat attacks, all matters not, we played what was in front of us and we won the series. I look forward to watching it back.

[Bearman]

It was good to see England get the win as that's the most important thing for this series. It would be silly to get carried away and bang on about our achievements of beating the world champions because we know they were a shadow of the team they are when they don't have such injuries. The losses of Johnson and Foran were the key. Hiku and Nikorima (and Lolohea) are not international quality halves and it showed throughout the series, although Nikorima shows huge promise. New Zealand have two halves of top quality but not the depth that Australia has to cope with injuries. That is changing over time though. Ultimately though they couldn't cope with those two missing. I'm surprised Marshall wasn't called up as I think he would have been a more viable option that Lolohea was.

 

England were good in parts. The pack played well as it often does at this level and Hodgson and Roby worked well at hooker.

 

What's painfully obvious is that England still lacks quality in the halves. Widdop is considered some sort of saviour for England because he plays in the NRL but was the biggest disappointment by far. He lacked creativity, particularly with his passing. Williams is a great prospect but shouldn't never have been thrown in at the deep end. It was also a stupid decision to play him on the right when he's always played left side. Still, the only moments of influential creative passing from an England half came from Williams in the first test when he slipped a lovely short pass to Ferres and when he created a huge gap for Whitehead with a reverse flick pass in the build up to Hodgson's try.

 

Smith's inclusion was a smart one, but we can't rely on it to rain every time we play a test and if Wigan fans have learned anything about Smith this season it's that he only seems to play well when it's wet and he can use he only real weapon, his kicking game (see the Challenge Cup final win over Hull as evidence of Smith's last 'quality' performance. When conditions are good he's exposed for having no running game and nothing in the way of creative passing ability. Last year Widdop and Smith were criticised for being too similar because neither were willing to take the line on. Nothing has changed. In good weather we'd be back to the same situation.

 

McGillvary had a good debut. His strength and aggression really suited the conditions. I can understand Burgess being picked given the qualities that he brings. He's a better all round player than McGillvary (he has fantastic handling ability) but his form has been poor since getting injured around August this year. At the end of the year Manfredi and McGillvary were the form wingers, Burgess was off the pace. McGillvary is great to watch and a real handful. 

 

Hardaker was good but didn't offer as much as Tomkins has done in attack, which many predicted, but he did put in some good tackles in defence and was solid at the back. He's a good option and hopefully they will battle it out for the number 1 shirt next season.

 

The back row is still lacking in real quality but I thought Whitehead, Farrell and Ferres all performed as well as can be expected. I thought Whitehead in particular had good game in particular. Not sure any of them are top quality but Whitehead and Farrell have time on their side and Bateman and Currie have huge potential, so there's no immediate worry.

 

The 'middles' were strong but Cooper deserves particular praise. He's come on leaps and bounds since he's moved to the NRL. O'Loughlin showed his value throughout the tournament but we need to find a player to replace him soon. There aren't many who could replace him like for like although maybe Joe Westerman's move to Wire will help him fulfil his potential.

 

All in all, England were quite good, New Zealand battled well and improvised a decent game plan since they were lacking two quality halves. There's still a lot of work to do for England but I do think the team is getting better.

What a great post. Exactly right.

[RSN]

What I gathered from the game:

McGilvary is world class. His ball returns were massive. The Kiwis adjusted their game plan kicking to him in the second half, the best 3/4 on the pitch by a distance.

Hardaker is a superb all round full back. Defencively he is superb.

Watkins is world class but off form. 2 or 3 times today he walked past his opposite number but lacked the composure to turn it into points.

Matty Smith proved doubters wrong which I was one of.

Bateman played like an excellent second rower playing centre. He needs to be playing second row he is obviously class.

Farrell is too lightweight for international level.

We have way to many options at prop. With G Burgess and Walmsley missing and Savelio growing next year we are going to have luxuries at prop forward.

Roby is arguably the best hooker in the world.

This series was brilliant to watch. People hating against it are basically trolls. Can't wait for next year.

[Futtocks]

Can't remember if I posted this before, but while Farrell didn't find attacking space, he was one of our best at wrapping up the Kiwis' ball-carrying arms and prevented a lot of offloads down his side. He didn't always bring down his man one-on-one, but you ended up seeing most attacks being directed to the other side of the field.

[dkw]

Fully agree with all that rsn, the prop situation is going to be great when those 2 are fit, and now with cooper impressing so much too.

Farrell just has so little impact in international games, OK defence, OK yards but nothing else, he shouldn't be there, Bateman and Whitehead to start with ferres of the bench will be ideal.

[mt smart]

Good result for England well done.

Back to the drawing board for Kiwi fans, oh well it was always going to be hard playing England at home.

[DavidM]

I agree about Farrell . Him and Bateman on one side is to lightweight . You look at their big fringe forwards and the impact they bring , he is just to small and ineffective in the problems he offers the opposition .With all the props we may look at using one in the second row . Whatever the standard , it's always engrossing to watch . I was still on the edge of my seat twitching like Jack Douglas !!

[Guest]

I don't get why so many people think Farrell is too small for international rugby and would have thought after this series he has shown many people why he was included. I thought he had a great series, was reliable as usual and was a tackling machine. Each to there own i suppose.

[Futtocks]

Good result for England well done.

Back to the drawing board for Kiwi fans, oh well it was always going to be hard playing England at home.

For the Kiwis, the pack's still powerful, skilful and mobile and mostly with lots of prime years ahead of them. Nightingale and SKD may be getting on a bit, but so often put in a big performance at international level. There are plenty of big powerful speedsters coming through the ranks, I'm sure.

 

Nikorima, wherever he ends up (hooker or half), is a real find. And he's being developed as a player by none other than Wayne Bennett. All good, nothing bad there.

 

Tuimoala Lolohea is in the same position as George Williams - not quite ready this time, but maybe one for the future. However, RTS and Issac Luke will be teaming up with, and teaching, him at the Warriors, as well as others like Johnson, Vatuvei and Hurrell. That can't hurt his prospects.

[DavidM]

You've gotta love Isaac Luke . Absolute Trojan , quality player and total leader by example . Really impressive throughout the series

[Brigg Rover]

I agree about Farrell . Him and Bateman on one side is to lightweight . You look at their big fringe forwards and the impact they bring , he is just to small and ineffective in the problems he offers the opposition .With all the props we may look at using one in the second row . Whatever the standard , it's always engrossing to watch . I was still on the edge of my seat twitching like Jack Douglas !!

Think the reason Farrell gets in is because he can play 80 minutes so that allows the coach to use his subs elsewhere. Not that I agree with that because you are right he doesn't offer enough in attack. He was very poor at the KC with some terrible options taken.