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Bedford Roughyed

The great EU Referendum poll (new question in poll!)

EU Referendum  

149 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      72
    • Leave the European Union
      66
    • Don't know?
      11
  2. 2. With two weeks to go, has your vote changed?

    • Yes, I was remain, now leave
      0
    • Yes, I was leave, now remain
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now leave
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now remain
      3
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to leave
      0
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to stay
      5
    • No, my intention is the same
      18


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I don't disagree, but it's amazing what a bit of hype and well worded rhetoric can achieve these days in the age of the media soundbyte.

In these days of media soundbyte/internet/facebook/snapchat/twitter etc maybe the people in power do not like it . Due to the fact they have little control (for now)over it . At one time we would have to have facts and figures rolled out for us to take in , now people can pick holes/produce facts /tell lies/tell the truth and we can take bits we want and not bother with stuff we dont want .

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 take bits we want and not bother with stuff we don't want .

 

even if they are not true. The Europhobes are STILL trotting out the £350 million nonsensense despite being told by  UK Statistics that its a big big lie.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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I've finally retired at age 70. I have the UK state pension, a modest pension fund and a very small French occupational pension. If we vote leave, I stand to lose a lot of my income, and in that case I shall pursue Smith Fox etc so vigorously that they will regret their treason.

Me,Me,Me.

That's the Tory in you John

Edited by Bearman

Ron Banks

Bears and Barrow

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Ok...how s this, whether we leave or not, whatever happens to my income, I shall pursue Smith, Gove, Fox etc so vigorously that they will regret their treason.   :biggrin:  :biggrin:  :biggrin:


Four legs good - two legs bad

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 take bits we want and not bother with stuff we don't want .

 

even if they are not true. The Europhobes are STILL trotting out the £350 million nonsensense despite being told by  UK Statistics that its a big big lie.

Except it IS true.  We do pay that but we get some back in the rebate Thatcher negotiated for us. 

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I don't disagree, but it's amazing what a bit of hype and well worded rhetoric can achieve these days in the age of the media soundbyte.

The same applies for the remain side.  I've just had a look at the fact checker on the BBC website and some of that stuff Cameron 'negotiated' for us should we remain in the EU is actually already part of UK law.  Yet you wouldn't know this unless someone helpfully pointed it out.  The £4,300 per family hit that Osborne claimed would be a result of Brexit was spin too as was the forecast drop in house prices.

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Except it IS true.  We do pay that but we get some back in the rebate Thatcher negotiated for us. 

Except it isn't.

The rebate is taken off at source so we don't hand over £35 million and we never have.

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If a Brexit happened then the recruitment of nurses from Europe wouldn't change except that we would recruit them if and when needed rather than because they are from the EU.  Why anyone would think that we would stop recruiting from abroad I have no idea.  We did it before the EU was invented, before even the common market was invented, and we would do it again.  All countries do it.  A country doesn't have to be a member of the EU to recruit from countries which form the EU.

 

 

If we leave the EU the current visa/immigration rules would apply to nurses from the EU.  We don't recruit many from outside the EU anymore because those rules don't allow it.  

 

Therefore to maintain the number of nurses we need the first act of your plan will be to lower the immigration rules.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Except it isn't.

The rebate is taken off at source so we don't hand over £35 million and we never have.

What he said.

 

They can't give something back that they never actually receive.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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As always with these TV Q&A's it is about the performance rather than the substance of what they say. I'm not a fan of Gove by any means but it'd be churlish to suggest that he didn't perform well even if you disagree with the content. He came across as very polished, calm and assured and got his key phrases in several times. In particular the "lets take back control" message is one that will resonate with many people.

 

Yup he did perform well.  I disagree with him on numerous things.  Especially his view we should ignore experts and also go against the elite.

 

How have we got a situation where Gove, Johnson, Lamont, et al are claiming to be fighting the establishment?  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Except it isn't.

The rebate is taken off at source so we don't hand over £35 million and we never have.

Nope, you're wrong.  The EU bureaucrats, take the money from us, all £350m per week, that they insist is delivered in used notes by hand each week, they then turn it into worthless Euros, wipe their bottoms with a small bit of it and send it back to us before demanding we spend it on freebies for the EU Commissioners when they come to our country.  And nothing you, the government, the Treasury, all the economists, the OECD, IMF and other groups say will make me believe anything else, I heard it from both Boris and Nigel and they've never told a lie in their entire lives.  Oh, and the Office for National Statistics, they're just sticking up for Cameron, they're lying as well.

 

You're onto a loser there trying to convince her of pesky "facts".


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Except it isn't.

The rebate is taken off at source so we don't hand over £35 million and we never have.

Obviously we don't physically hand it over.  But in order to get a rebate the £350 million has to be paid otherwise it isn't a rebate is it?  Yet everyone knows and fully acknowledges we secured a rebate under Thatcher.

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You're onto a loser there trying to convince her of pesky "facts".

Your patronising posts are dull but predictable.  Accounts are accounts and to obtain a rebate a payment first has to be shown as being made. 

Edited by Saintslass

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If we leave the EU the current visa/immigration rules would apply to nurses from the EU.  We don't recruit many from outside the EU anymore because those rules don't allow it.  

 

Therefore to maintain the number of nurses we need the first act of your plan will be to lower the immigration rules.  

It costs a fortune to get in non-EU skilled workers and takes ages having to go through the sponsorship rules.

 

Plus, there's a thriving market in exploiting non-EU workers in the UK.  What happens is, say, a large telecoms company famous for being cheap (in multiple meanings of the word) needs some IT workers, they advertise a lot of highly skilled jobs requiring extensive experience at minimum wage, they get zero credible applicants, they then use this to complain to UKBA that there's a skill shortage and they desperately need worker visas.  They then turn a very blind eye to friendly recruitment agencies who bring in hopeful and highly skilled people from, say, India who want to emigrate here, the company "sponsors" them using the visa allotment they have, the agency pays the workers the minimum wage but insists that they have to stay in tied full-board housing with all their other fellow workers, paying the agency for the privilege an amount that's conveniently a few pounds short of their weekly wage.  When the worker has been here long enough to JUST ABOUT be able to ask for rights to remain on their own without sponsorship, the agency pulls the sponsorship citing some difficulty and the worker is deported for having no visa.  Coincidentally, the role then becomes available again for the next hopeful to be brought over with promises of help in securing residence.

 

Compare that with an EU equivalent worker, they come here and get a job because they can.  The company can't exploit them for really low and unsecured wages, the agencies don't get a hefty profit from exploiting hard working people and there's a mutually beneficial deal for all sides.

 

And, no, no siree, am I suggesting that there are NHS bank nursing schemes that do similar.  Nope, never happen, it'd never be allowed and I'm not saying that in the slightest.  Never.  No-one would ever turn a blind eye to that at senior levels.  Nope, just ridiculous to even think that.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Your patronising posts are dull but predictable.  Accounts are accounts and to obtain a rebate a payment first has to be shown as being made. 

I get a rebate every year from the government, it's called my personal allowance.  I don't have to pay the government this for them to rebate it.  It's just nonsense to suggest that you have to give money for it to be reduced from the amount you have to pay.  Same with every sale you see in a shop, you don't pay the full price then they refund the sale price to you.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Obviously we don't physically hand it over.  But in order to get a rebate the £350 million has to be paid otherwise it isn't a rebate is it?  Yet everyone knows and fully acknowledges we secured a rebate under Thatcher.

 

 

Thats because it isn't actually a rebate.  Everyone calls it a rebate but its actually an abatement, exemption, discount.  We don't pay it, never have paid it, it doesn't leave the treasury.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Just on the point of the £350m per week, it's both true and untrue depending on what context you use. It is true that we don't contribute that much in terms of the EU central budget which seems to be the context it is generally being used for. However, according to the ONS pink book, we actually pay a further ~£100m a week to what are termed as "Other EU Institutions". So we don't pay £350m per week to the EU budget, but overall we do pay that much to all EU related institutions. It's no wonder people are confused.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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"British opinion is where it is on Europe because it is paying the price of past and present bad political habits. What goes around comes around. Partly it is payback time because since James Callaghan there has been no British prime minister, not even Tony Blair, who thought of Europe as “us” rather than “them”.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/03/our-bad-habits-britain-brink-brexit-leave-remain-failures-culture-politics-media

 

That's the problem, always has been.  That's why we are where we are today. On the cusp of taking a disastrous decision for our country.  We have no idea what Brexit will really mean, but large numbers of us seem prepared to vote for it.  And IMO it goes back to regarding Europe as "them" not "us."


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Watched the Gove thing... he called for us to vote to sack the "unelected, unaccountable elites".  None of the options allows me to get rid of the House of Lords though and they have a bigger impact on the laws that affect me.  I wonder if he'd commit to putting replacing the HoL in the next Tory manifesto if he became leader, or alternatively voting for any MP's bill that put that forward.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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I think the Mail isn't being subtle about hedging its bets now (the Mail's headline story on the overnight slot)


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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I think the Mail isn't being subtle about hedging its bets now (the Mail's headline story on the overnight slot)

 

 

Wondering if its a Mail Vs the Mail on Sunday thing?  Same owner but different editors (who Private Eye say don't get on?).


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Just on the point of the £350m per week, it's both true and untrue depending on what context you use. It is true that we don't contribute that much in terms of the EU central budget which seems to be the context it is generally being used for. However, according to the ONS pink book, we actually pay a further ~£100m a week to what are termed as "Other EU Institutions". So we don't pay £350m per week to the EU budget, but overall we do pay that much to all EU related institutions. It's no wonder people are confused.

 

Does it say what those other institutions are?


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Please label all Project Fear stories accordingly.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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