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The great EU Referendum poll (new question in poll!)

EU Referendum  

149 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      72
    • Leave the European Union
      66
    • Don't know?
      11
  2. 2. With two weeks to go, has your vote changed?

    • Yes, I was remain, now leave
      0
    • Yes, I was leave, now remain
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now leave
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now remain
      3
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to leave
      0
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to stay
      5
    • No, my intention is the same
      18


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Lose this referendum and all he'll ever be remembered for will be Britain's economic suicide and a catastrophic loss of sovereignty.

Or he'll be remembered as the PM who actually kept his promise and gave the people their chance to vote for what they wanted, unlike countless cowardly leaders before him.

If Britain leaves the EU it's because the majority of the people want it to happen. Unless of course your saying the politicians should ignore the will of the people?


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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The rules on non EU immigration are so strict because of the rate of EU immigration. With net immigration of a million every three years we can't really increase it without becoming overpopulated. I'd rather take the better Europeans and the better non Europeans as immigrants rather than the better Europeans and the less skilled Europeans

But any control over immigration is highly debatable, we may end up having to agree free to movement anyway depending on the sort of deal that will be done post brexit. Again the leave lot can't agree/don't know/won't tell us what exactly will happen. :dry:


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Or he'll be remembered as the PM who actually kept his promise and gave the people their chance to vote for what they wanted, unlike countless cowardly leaders before him.

If Britain leaves the EU it's because the majority of the people want it to happen. Unless of course your saying the politicians should ignore the will of the people?

But if it's such a bad idea and, in his words, a potential catastrophe for our economy why put us in that danger in the first place?

Politicians should make the decisions, right or wrong, it's their job and what we pay them not an insignificant amount of money to do. The idea of having a referendum every 40 or 50 years on one single issue and not on the hundreds of other issues that there have been in that time is highly anti-democratc.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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But if it's such a bad idea and, in his words, a potential catastrophe for our economy why put us in that danger in the first place?

Politicians should make the decisions, right or wrong, it's their job and what we pay them not an insignificant amount of money to do. The idea of having a referendum every 40 or 50 years on one single issue and not on the hundreds of other issues that there have been in that time is highly anti-democratc.

Just because you don't like referendums doesn't make them undemocratic.

Some issues are just so fundamental to how the whole of the country exists that they should be voted on by the people and not left to a few in Westminster.

How would you feel if it was the other way round and there was a majority of the public who were pro-europe but the 650 mp's in Westminster voted amongst themselves and decided to take us out?

Would you be happy to leave under the wishes of just a few, would you see that as democratic?


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Just because you don't like referendums doesn't make them undemocratic.

Some issues are just so fundamental to how the whole of the country exists that they should be voted on by the people and not left to a few in Westminster.

There have been dozens of issues as, if not more, important in the last 40 odd years. Why no referendum on those? Picking just one now and again is extremely undemocratic, it should be all or nothing.

How would you feel if it was the other way round and there was a majority of the public who were pro-europe but the 650 mp's in Westminster voted amongst themselves and decided to take us out?

Would you be happy to leave under the wishes of just a few, would you see that as democratic?

The same argument applies; there have been countless decisions made on my behalf by Westminster that I didn't agree with, but that's the democratic system we have. I vote for an MP whose views closest resemble my own and hope they have enough colleagues of a like mind to form a government.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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The rules on non EU immigration are so strict because of the rate of EU immigration. With net immigration of a million every three years we can't really increase it without becoming overpopulated. I'd rather take the better Europeans and the better non Europeans as immigrants rather than the better Europeans and the less skilled Europeans

I thought the rules had been tightened up because of the huge number of student and other visas that were being "fraudulently" issued in the immigrants home countries.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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I've absolutely no doubt that a referendum on capital punishment would produce reintroduction.  That, given our record of convicting the wrong man doesn't make it right.  From 1979, Thatcher promised a free vote regarding the reintroduction after every General Election win.  And every time it was voted down by the MP's.  In 1987, when it appeared that at last she'd get her way, it is reported she let it be known "through the usual channels" that she wouldn't be too upset if it failed again.  Prime Ministers espouse some policies because they know they're popular with the public.  IMO that's what Cameron was about with his referendum policy.  Now he is hoist with his own petard and fighting for his political life.  He needs Labour to come and rescue him, hence sharing a platform with Harriet Harman.  What if Labour did what he did and put party before country?  We'd then be up a certain creek without a paddle.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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There have been dozens of issues as, if not more, important in the last 40 odd years. Why no referendum on those? Picking just one now and again is extremely undemocratic, it should be all or nothing.

The same argument applies; there have been countless decisions made on my behalf by Westminster that I didn't agree with, but that's the democratic system we have. I vote for an MP whose views closest resemble my own and hope they have enough colleagues of a like mind to form a government.

How many of those decisions made that you don't agree with couldn't be overturned by the next government ? None I'd hazard a guess

 

This decision is so fundamental to the entire countries future and its final and binding. Future governments can't overturn it once the decision is made so its right that its the people that decide not just a few in Westminster.

 

We joined the EEC through back-door deals made largely by unelected civil servants with the people being kept mostly in the dark about the true nature of the EU project. Everyone thought they were just joining a free trade common market, not an institution who's ultimate goal was always full political and monetary union, so it wasn't exactly democratic in how we were taken into Europe in the first place.

Its probably why so many people who were around 1st time are now so keen to vote leave this time because they feel cheated by the politicians.

 

Under our current voting system most people just don't bother voting because they feel their vote just doesn't matter, but with this referendum it does matter because every vote directly affects the outcome.

My father hasn't voted for over 50 years but he's voting in this referendum, same with my father in-law who's never voted, and my wife who hasn't voted for over 20 years - and they're all voting to leave by the way


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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How many of those decisions made that you don't agree with couldn't be overturned by the next government ? None I'd hazard a guess

 

This decision is so fundamental to the entire countries future and its final and binding. Future governments can't overturn it once the decision is made so its right that its the people that decide not just a few in Westminster.

 

We joined the EEC through back-door deals made largely by unelected civil servants with the people being kept mostly in the dark about the true nature of the EU project. Everyone thought they were just joining a free trade common market, not an institution who's ultimate goal was always full political and monetary union, so it wasn't exactly democratic in how we were taken into Europe in the first place.

Its probably why so many people who were around 1st time are now so keen to vote leave this time because they feel cheated by the politicians.

 

Under our current voting system most people just don't bother voting because they feel their vote just doesn't matter, but with this referendum it does matter because every vote directly affects the outcome.

My father hasn't voted for over 50 years but he's voting in this referendum, same with my father in-law who's never voted, and my wife who hasn't voted for over 20 years - and they're all voting to leave by the way

 

And potentially screw up the lives of their children and grandchildren. How noble of them. :dry: 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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And potentially screw up the lives of their children and grandchildren. How noble of them. :dry:

You sound like a dictator with some sort of superiority complex - how dare they make decisions for their children and grand children

 

This referendum is 1 person 1 vote (dodgy duplicate voting slips aside) so their vote and opinion is every bit as valid as yours. If we vote to leave its because the majority want to leave. You might not like it but tough, that's what living in a democracy is about, your wishes carry no more weight than anyone else's.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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It's okay if we vote to leave because Boris has told us all it just means we can strengthen our terms of membership.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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You sound like a dictator with some sort of superiority complex - how dare they make decisions for their children and grand children

 

 

 

Lol! I think you need to be a bit more self-aware pal. Comparing the tone of your contributions and Griff's post it's clear which one of you sounds like the dictator.

 

By the way, "most people" do bother to vote in General Elections (66% in 2015). Your family's failure to vote is shameful and I'm betting they're the sort that wear lack of civic engagement on their sleeve like some badge of nihilistic honour.

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You sound like a dictator with some sort of superiority complex - how dare they make decisions for their children and grand children

This referendum is 1 person 1 vote (dodgy duplicate voting slips aside) so their vote and opinion is every bit as valid as yours. If we vote to leave its because the majority want to leave. You might not like it but tough, that's what living in a democracy is about, your wishes carry no more weight than anyone else's.

Of course they are perfectly entitled to vote. I was just making the point that they won't be the ones to suffer should this all go mammaries up in the future. It's a huge risk to take with your children and grandchildren's lives, one I'm not prepared to take when the brexit lot are unprepared or unable to tell us what they have planned.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Of course they are perfectly entitled to vote. I was just making the point that they won't be the ones to suffer should this all go mammaries up in the future. It's a huge risk to take with your children and grandchildren's lives, one I'm not prepared to take when the brexit lot are unprepared or unable to tell us what they have planned.

Heath & Co never told the people what was planned when they took us into the EEC - in fact they deliberately kept it from the people as they knew the backlash they would receive.

They took us in not knowing what would happen and it was every bit as much a risk to take us in. We can debate forever and a day whether the EEC / EU has been good for us or not (and everyone has their own opinion), but it was still a risk. Any number of votes and decisions taken in Brussels could have been different over the decades and each one could have fundamentally altered our way of life in the UK, with many of those early years decisions not being under our control to opt-out or veto.  

 

There's a risk to change, of course there is, but there's also a risk to staying in an institution to which we disagree with their ultimate goal of full political & monetary union.

The question for people now is whether they want to take the risk now to leave and set our own path, or to stay in the EU and see what happens and potentially hold another referendum in the future should Brussels achieve its ultimate goal (or get close to achieving it).

 

You obviously feel its too risky to leave now where as I'm of the opinion that the risk is worth taking so we don't have to go through all this again in the future.

For all the predictions of doom & gloom on both sides (and they're both as bad as each other), nobody knows for sure what will happen either way.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Lol! I think you need to be a bit more self-aware pal. Comparing the tone of your contributions and Griff's post it's clear which one of you sounds like the dictator.

 

By the way, "most people" do bother to vote in General Elections (66% in 2015). Your family's failure to vote is shameful and I'm betting they're the sort that wear lack of civic engagement on their sleeve like some badge of nihilistic honour.

Aaaaand banned.  Far too many warnings for a returned previously banned troll.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Watching Cameron on TV just now, if he said all of the things he is saying on a general election platform and made them core policies then he truly would be the "heir to Blair".  He talked about protecting all the things that a centrist and centre-left politician would prioritise from manufacturing jobs to social reform.

 

Interesting to hear his stage directed response about the Tory MPs on the leave side with their "untruths".  Now, David, that's a doubleplusungood way of saying they're lying.  Then to go on and simply say they're speaking "untruths" because they don't know any better is to not just call them liars but to call them ignorant liars who can't be bothered to find out the truth.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Of course they are perfectly entitled to vote. I was just making the point that they won't be the ones to suffer should this all go mammaries up in the future. It's a huge risk to take with your children and grandchildren's lives, one I'm not prepared to take when the brexit lot are unprepared or unable to tell us what they have planned.

 

The problem is that "the Brexit lot" are in no position to tell us what they have planned, if only for the fact that they are not the government. All they can do is tell us what they would do, or what could be done, they would be totally unable to make any promises as to what will be done. As things stand, only Cameron, Osborne and co can make any concrete promises as they are the only ones in a position to deliver them. It'd be a great help if the government came out and told us what their plans are if the vote is to leave. I mean its all well and good them pointing out the negatives as part of their remain campaign but if it goes against them, which is a reasonable possibility, then it'd be useful to know what they would do to deal with that scenario.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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The problem is that "the Brexit lot" are in no position to tell us what they have planned, if only for the fact that they are not the government. All they can do is tell us what they would do, or what could be done, they would be totally unable to make any promises as to what will be done. As things stand, only Cameron, Osborne and co can make any concrete promises as they are the only ones in a position to deliver them. It'd be a great help if the government came out and told us what their plans are if the vote is to leave. I mean its all well and good them pointing out the negatives as part of their remain campaign but if it goes against them, which is a reasonable possibility, then it'd be useful to know what they would do to deal with that scenario.

Which is why this has all got so messy.

 

I don't for one minute believe that the Government haven't already had the civil service working on plans for what will happen if we do leave, but they're choosing not to make these public because Cam & Co want us to remain.

 

If its a leave vote, I can't see them all sat around the cabinet table on the 24th going "right chaps, we're leaving, better come up with a new plan quickly"

Edited by Saint Toppy

Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Yes that explains how we go about leaving etc but I mean the more fundamental issues closer to home. For example, are we going to have an all party steering committee to oversee any transition or will it be left to Whitehall ? Will it be solely down to the incumbent government or will there be a consensus approach ?

Edited by Derwent

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Heath & Co never told the people what was planned when they took us into the EEC - in fact they deliberately kept it from the people as they knew the backlash they would receive.

They took us in not knowing what would happen and it was every bit as much a risk to take us in. We can debate forever and a day whether the EEC / EU has been good for us or not (and everyone has their own opinion), but it was still a risk. Any number of votes and decisions taken in Brussels could have been different over the decades and each one could have fundamentally altered our way of life in the UK, with many of those early years decisions not being under our control to opt-out or veto.  

 

There's a risk to change, of course there is, but there's also a risk to staying in an institution to which we disagree with their ultimate goal of full political & monetary union.

The question for people now is whether they want to take the risk now to leave and set our own path, or to stay in the EU and see what happens and potentially hold another referendum in the future should Brussels achieve its ultimate goal (or get close to achieving it).

 

You obviously feel its too risky to leave now where as I'm of the opinion that the risk is worth taking so we don't have to go through all this again in the future.

For all the predictions of doom & gloom on both sides (and they're both as bad as each other), nobody knows for sure what will happen either way.

This just isn't true.  You only had to listen to Heath, and especially Jenkins what they wanted from EEC membership


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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I see there are a few 'stories' being leaked about what the EU have planned if we stay in the EU,

 

This one from the Express about TTIP talks between the US and EU and the end of the NHS-

 

"Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online. They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled. The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain. But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” or interfere with the private market. One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector. "

 

Full story =

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

 

And this one from the Telegraph -

 

MOTORISTS who display the Union Flag on their vehicle number plates from this autumn can be stopped by the police and prosecuted under regulations approved yesterday by MPs.  However, it will be legal to carry the European Union symbol of 12 yellow stars on a blue background.

Story = http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1317286/Union-Flag-banned-on-car-number-plates.html

Scaremongering?  I certainly hope so.


Jam Eater  1.(noun. jam eeter) A Resident of Whitehaven or Workington. Offensive.  It is now a term of abuse that both towns of West Cumbria use for each other especially at Workington/Whitehaven rugby league derby matches.

St Albans Centurions Website 

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I see there are a few 'stories' being leaked about what the EU have planned if we stay in the EU,

 

This one from the Express about TTIP talks between the US and EU and the end of the NHS-

 

"Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online. They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled. The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain. But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” or interfere with the private market. One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector. "

 

Full story =

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

 

And this one from the Telegraph -

 

MOTORISTS who display the Union Flag on their vehicle number plates from this autumn can be stopped by the police and prosecuted under regulations approved yesterday by MPs.  However, it will be legal to carry the European Union symbol of 12 yellow stars on a blue background.

Story = http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1317286/Union-Flag-banned-on-car-number-plates.html

Scaremongering?  I certainly hope so.

 

 

The second story appears to be 15 years old?


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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The second story appears to be 15 years old?

 

 

Leaking these stories 15 years ago shows how devious the establishment elites are...


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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So it does.  Todays date on the article threw me - Never trust a mate who is trying to convince you to vote 'Leave' by sending you 'current' stories. The one about the NHS is current isn't it?, (4 weeks ago) or I will just remove the whole article.

Edited by Exiled Townie

Jam Eater  1.(noun. jam eeter) A Resident of Whitehaven or Workington. Offensive.  It is now a term of abuse that both towns of West Cumbria use for each other especially at Workington/Whitehaven rugby league derby matches.

St Albans Centurions Website 

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