Referees, technology and modern RL

[Lowdesert]

I was brought up, was coached and coached others to respect referees and to believe that referees never cost you the game. You have it in your hands to win. But, in recent times, I am becoming more frustrated.

Are referees just trying to ensure they go through a process to appease their boss? Or, do they rely on their judgement and descretion? From what I've seen its the former and it's slowing the game down too much. In addition, they seem to be making more basic mistakes - mistakes that fans, ex players and pundits see, but decisions stay the same.

Are we any better off with technology? Obviously. But would the game be better if the refereeing Team on the pitch worked together more, committed to decisions, were allowed to use descretion and stopped going to the video for what seems like everything?

[John Fisher]

Do you want them to stop going to the video referee or to stop making mistakes?

[Lowdesert]

Hah! Both.

Just frustrated with going to the video ref for everything. Seems they're afraid to commit, more often than not and its slowing the game down too much.

Look what happened with Thaler. Much of that he already knew, or should have. He needed confirmation as this is the process. No good. Make a decision, it's refereeing.

[C H Calthrop]

I was brought up, was coached and coached others to respect referees and to believe that referees never cost you the game. You have it in your hands to win. But, in recent times, I am becoming more frustrated.

Are referees just trying to ensure they go through a process to appease their boss? Or, do they rely on their judgement and descretion? From what I've seen its the former and it's slowing the game down too much. In addition, they seem to be making more basic mistakes - mistakes that fans, ex players and pundits see, but decisions stay the same.

Are we any better off with technology? Obviously. But would the game be better if the refereeing Team on the pitch worked together more, committed to decisions, were allowed to use descretion and stopped going to the video for what seems like everything?

 

It is very clear that since the refs went full time, sorry professional, they cover themselves in the face of scrutiny much more. Every time they go to the VR they are declaring what they haven't seen and are not sure of, which seems to be most things. They have certainly enhanced their position in the spotlight more than ever before which is why we now have them controlling the pace of the game and not just adjudicating. 

[Lowdesert]

It is very clear that since the refs went full time, sorry professional, they cover themselves in the face of scrutiny much more. Every time they go to the VR they are declaring what they haven't seen and are not sure of, which seems to be most things. They have certainly enhanced their position in the spotlight more than ever before which is why we now have them controlling the pace of the game and not just adjudicating.

Exactly. Should it not be the players who control the speed of the game?

If they are constantly going to the VR, are they really adjudicating?

[Futtocks]

I was brought up, was coached and coached others to respect referees and to believe that referees never cost you the game. 

Judging by some of the posts on here and @RLMeltdown, you are a very solitary voice in the wilderness, especially when it comes to the bit in bold.  

[Bearman]

I would do away with the Video Ref, after all its only there on televised games.

I would add the rider that SKY should not be allowed to rerun contentious decisions in slomo during the game. The referee has to call it in real time and mistakes would balance out over the season

One of the reasons refs are reluctant to make decisions is because it's SKY that hang them out to dry.

[Futtocks]

I would do away with the Video Ref, after all its only there on televised games.

I would add the rider that SKY should not be allowed to rerun contentious decisions in slomo during the game. The referee has to call it in real time and mistakes would balance out over the season

One of the reasons refs are reluctant to make decisions is because it's SKY that hang them out to dry.

Same with Cricket and, increasingly, Football. This direction is very unlikely to be reversed.

 

In an ideal world, we would be 100% confident in both our referees and our technology. But human beings are neither infallible nor omniscient, and technology isn't perfect.

 

But imagine the pent-up fury of a certain subset of fans, if they watched a match and every decision was not only completely fair, but was clearly demonstrated to be so... but their team still lost? It'd be like a scene from 'Scanners'! Heads exploding all along the M62.

[C H Calthrop]

Exactly. Should it not be the players who control the speed of the game?

If they are constantly going to the VR, are they really adjudicating?

I would go further and say that refs can now control the game  to the point where it provides a playing dynamic that is a convenience for them to referee. 

[Lowdesert]

Judging by some of the posts on here and @RLMeltdown, you are a very solitary voice in the wilderness, especially when it comes to the bit in bold.

Often told I was a lost cause. Strange that I never got lost though.

Seriously. Do we want the game slowed down to the speed of NFL or RU? Would be interesting to know average stoppage time comparison, year on year since VR introduced. Bet it's increasing.

[Old Frightful]

I would suggest that going to the VR to get things right where possible is the way to continue.

 

The only group to complain about it as far as I can see would be people who need to be somewhere by a certain time after the game.

 

It doesn't happen too often and, in spite of what you might believe, officials get most of the stuff right without the aid of technology.

 

I bet, even with the VR being called upon several times during an 80 minute game of RL, there's still far fewer stoppages in our game than that other code.

 

Perhaps we should also take the use of technology one step further.

 

Wouldn't it have been fascinating if, at half time during the recent Wigan v Huddersfield game, John Bateman was able to use John Wells' touch screen monitor to explain to Joe Cobb how he wanted the game to be refereed in the 2nd half.

 

Sky could have even used subtitles for when Bateman spoke.

[Just Browny]

I must admit I was a bit perplexed that, not once but twice, Bentham admitted he had got decisions wrong against Warrington (having glanced at the screen) but couldn't reverse them because 'them's the rules'. If there is a way of getting the decisions right, we would do our referees a big favour.

[Lowdesert]

I must admit I was a bit perplexed that, not once but twice, Bentham admitted he had got decisions wrong against Warrington (having glanced at the screen) but couldn't reverse them because 'them's the rules'. If there is a way of getting the decisions right, we would do our referees a big favour.

I feel for the referees. Remember the Thaler incident at Cats?

[Oxford]

Exactly. Should it not be the players who control the speed of the game?

If they are constantly going to the VR, are they really adjudicating?

Should it not be players who control the speed of the ruck????

 

No cos every tackle would take about 4 minutes!

 

If they are constantly going to the VR, are they really adjudicating?

 

No, but the VR is not the problem; it's the scrutinisaion and following trial by anger that makes them go there! People are unable to accept that decisions against them are correct or given in good faith!

[Lowdesert]

 

No, but the VR is not the problem; it's the scrutinisaion and following trial by anger that makes them go there! People are unable to accept that decisions against them are correct or given in good faith!

There is no 'good faith' in the pro game. Rules have been made and coaches will exploit them.

[Oxford]

There is no 'good faith' in the pro game. Rules have been made and coaches will exploit them.

Agreed, but refs make them with that in mind!

[redjonn]

Often told I was a lost cause. Strange that I never got lost though.

Seriously. Do we want the game slowed down to the speed of NFL or RU? Would be interesting to know average stoppage time comparison, year on year since VR introduced. Bet it's increasing.

 

I get your point but what about the amount of time wasted nowadays in:

 

Kicks from between the post (seem more a chance to get breath sorted by many teams)

Getting ready for the Scrum

Conversions/kicks for goal

Penalties when play is brought back after the free play

Quick Penalties being brought back, because ref isn't ready most times

Taking water on the hot days

 

No doubt others can add, but it does seem to me that their are plenty of situations that seem to drag on.  I chuckle at Union but then wonder where our game is going....

 

on yep not forgetting that more players in the tackle, the longer it takes for each to get off the tackled player... i.e. 4 in the tackle is often the norm....lying on top of each so slowing play to a walk...

 

I and we may joke about Union but they are trying to speed up their game... we seem to be slowing ours down... I do wonder if we will pass at some point in about 10 years re:speed of play.

[Farmduck]

Drop outs - 35 seconds

scrums - 35 secs

kicks for goal - time off after 90 secs

Penalties when play is brought back after the free play - dunno, what's a free play?

Quick Penalties being brought back, because ref isn't ready most times - less than 10-12 secs

Taking water on the hot days - zero. Water carriers only allowed on when team is in possession.

[Bearman]

Drop outs - 35 seconds

scrums - 35 secs

kicks for goal - time off after 90 secs

Penalties when play is brought back after the free play - dunno, what's a free play?

Quick Penalties being brought back, because ref isn't ready most times - less than 10-12 secs

Taking water on the hot days - zero. Water carriers only allowed on when team is in possession.

Water carriers allowed on at anytime here and we also have a free play rule

ie following a knock on an opposition player has one tackle to take advantage of that knock on. No advantage gained and play is brought back for the scrum.

I didn't like the rule when it came in last year, but it's grown on me. It's not allowed under international rules.

[Lowdesert]

I get your point but what about the amount of time wasted nowadays in:

 

Kicks from between the post (seem more a chance to get breath sorted by many teams)

Getting ready for the Scrum

Conversions/kicks for goal

Penalties when play is brought back after the free play

Quick Penalties being brought back, because ref isn't ready most times

Taking water on the hot days

 

No doubt others can add, but it does seem to me that their are plenty of situations that seem to drag on.  I chuckle at Union but then wonder where our game is going....

 

on yep not forgetting that more players in the tackle, the longer it takes for each to get off the tackled player... i.e. 4 in the tackle is often the norm....lying on top of each so slowing play to a walk...

 

I and we may joke about Union but they are trying to speed up their game... we seem to be slowing ours down... I do wonder if we will pass at some point in about 10 years re:speed of play.

Name of the game with gang tackling John. Good if your defending, not so if attacking.

For any kind of strong tackle where a headshot 'might' have been? Players are staying down and at the next stoppage screaming at the ref to go to the VR. Player power and refs pass it on to the VR guy. Now it's out of the refs hands! Momentum is being taken away from the game.

Why are we getting conflicting information (Thaler at Cats, Bentham at Wire) with all this technology? Have the VR's got the necessary skills or have the refs become robots who have to satisfy their bosses?

[Lowdesert]

Water carriers allowed on at anytime here and we also have a free play rule

ie following a knock on an opposition player has one tackle to take advantage of that knock on. No advantage gained and play is brought back for the scrum.

I didn't like the rule when it came in last year, but it's grown on me. It's not allowed under international rules.

You raise a good point with the water carriers Ron. Teams are missing a trick......but not all.

Get a former top class attacking half back and provide with Water Carrier shirt. Leave said WC on field for all attacking plays.

Get former top class defence organiser and provide with WC shirt..............

[redjonn]

Name of the game with gang tackling John. Good if your defending, not so if attacking.

For any kind of strong tackle where a headshot 'might' have been? Players are staying down and at the next stoppage screaming at the ref to go to the VR. Player power and refs pass it on to the VR guy. Now it's out of the refs hands! Momentum is being taken away from the game.

Why are we getting conflicting information (Thaler at Cats, Bentham at Wire) with all this technology? Have the VR's got the necessary skills or have the refs become robots who have to satisfy their bosses?

 

Yep I tend to agree with you,

 

I don't like the VR and in particular don't like ref having to make a decision as to try or not try before going to VR...  Thus in going to VR the VR official has to be absolutely certain to overrule the ref when the ref has gone to the VR because he isn't sure.... seems daft logic to me.

[M j M]

I disagree with the whole premise of this thread - referees "seem to be making more basic mistakes"? Really? My recollection of the '80s and '90s is of repeated controversy about the ineptitude of referees - and that was before we could see their cockups immediately on the screen. 

 

They're not perfect and a couple of them infuriate me because of the way they interpret the game and try, and fail, to manage the players (and like any fan I have deep suspicions that one or two of them harbour deep seated grudges against my club. Silverwood.)

 

But the reality in my view is that their levels of basic fitness, competence, knowledge of the rules and play-to-play decision-making is better than ever. The problem is the scrutiny is higher than ever as well. With RL requiring referees to make, or not make, thousands of decisions covering every single play in each game there is a limitless well of decisions or none-decisions to pore over. But, broadly, they do a decent job.

 

As for the video ref - occasionally they get things wrong and the present setup of refereeing sending it up with a decision attached is an abomination. But I'd never dream of getting rid of it. Just imagine the first grand final decided on an incorrect decision.

[redjonn]

Mind you sometime the VR gets it wrong... or at least see's it different that the pundits, commentators and fans, including the ex ref expert on Sky.

 

I mean many would say that Leeds scored a try in grand final against Wigan last season that was dubious.

 

I guess the VR reduces the number of key decision errors.

 

Personally I just wish we would recapture the time when we stuck to what was taught... ref is doing his best, generally gets most decisions correct - certainly more that any commentator, pundit, fan or Denis Betts.... so stop complaining as its getting like soccer. That came about because of Sky too, in that they have to ensure controversy is the talking point. 

[Bearman]

Yes

To the two comments above