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Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

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16 minutes ago, shrek said:

I wish I'd been clever enough to argue prior to the referendum that there should have been a an agreed white paper on what the UK position would be in the event of a leave vote.  Take for example the 670 page SNP white paper that was published ahead of the Scottish referendum.

As it is the government does not have an agreed position that will get the backing of all within the party, let alone across government.

So you can leave experts and opinions to oneside, it'd be nice to have an agreed position, that the Government could sell to both the leave side and an element of the remain side in order to see it through.

As it is we appear to coasting towards no deal and being held to ransom under WTO rules to the likes of Moldova, let alone the big economies of the world!

Had that been the case, the result could never have unified the Conservative party.  Most referenda are the status quo versus a particular option, but a losing Leave campaign would have protested that the British public were not given an option that reflected what they wanted, i.e. that it was a rejection of that type of Leave rather than Leave per se.  Cameron, as a Remainer, wanted to exclude that danger.

38 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Absolutely.  Something that really gets up my nose. I've taken the time and effort (as have other remain leaning posters) to outline a sketch plan on here of how I'd have liked to have gone about at least attempting a successful brexit. This something that is never acknowledged by the leavers.

 

55 minutes ago, ckn said:

How is it due to Barnier & co?  If your precious Brexiteers had started grafting at full speed in 2016 then we MIGHT JUST be able to cope with a hard Brexit because we’d have at least the skeletons of bilateral treaties on all aspects of trade done by now. Instead they’ve indulged in political narcissism and point blank refused to address any problem. 

It’s irrelevant if two businesses want to trade, if there’s no government level agreements in place then they can’t. We are walking away from them all despite the clear promises of Brexiteers prior to the referendum that we wouldn’t. 

My first paragraph is where most Remainers differ from most Leavers. We have at least admitted that Brexit could be done but it would require hard and costly work, the Leavers have relied on a deus ex machina intervention to deliver their unicorns and rainbows. They’ve deluded themselves and people like you that the lack of progress is the EU’s fault rather than them doing nothing but having internal feuds and idiot elections. The EU published a clear set of terms right after the referendum, we still haven’t provided a public counter that the Tory party agrees on never mind one the country agrees on yet the EU27 are unanimously agreed. 

To give some defence, I think there was an approach worked out.  They were the weaker party with a united EU, so had to scare the individual Governments into disunifying.  To do this, the British Government adopted a seemingly suicidal approach to negotiation, suggesting they would not negotiate in their own best interests.  This made them far harder to negotiate with.  This would be enough to scare some of the EU Governments into negotiating separately.  

I am actually surprised by how unified the EU has been and I am not surprised that many people did not expect this.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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8 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

So you've picked one example to back your case and ignored the millions far more detrimental to it. Interestingly since the circumstances for the crash hadn't happened before the models didn't take those in to account. The fact that most economic forecasts turn out to be within 0.25% is amazing. Especially since they are essentially modelling a chaotic system. 10 years ago they missed something, the models now include that data.

Its like the hurricane that wasn't in the 80's. The weather forecasters missed it, but now they don't miss things like that.

Also are you willing to show where anyone said staying in the EU will stop unforeseen bad things happening? 

I think Johnoco's argument is that being in the EU is a bad thing in itself.  If the EU would forever safeguard us against any economic woes, it might be worth it, but as these things happen anyway this upside to being in the EU is minor.  

Apologies if I am mistaken.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Sh !t happens. Banking crashes, recessions, mass unemployment - these all happened whilst we were in the EU. But suddenly, these things would have been avoided in future by staying in.

Bob that is exactly what he said, so I'm not exactly misrepresenting what he said (even though he is misreading or ignoring the actual question posed)

Edited by RidingPie

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It’s difficult to know where reality ends and scaremongering begins . Looking in from the outside it’s a bit like climate change ... it’s always the worst case scenario and lots of ‘ this could happen ‘ ‘ this may happen ‘ . Looking into an unknown you can fill it in with whatever you want 

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Whilst channel hopping, on one of the money/business channels on Sky (Bloomberg?) a reporter was talking about Brexit and what the future might hold for big tech companies, and he said something along the line of  'did you know' that in the last 2 years the UK  have created more ‘unicorns’  - $1bn tech companies, than France, Germany, Sweden & Holland combined and that  30% of all worldwide 'unicorns' are in the UK with another 54 potentially currently valued just under $1bn.  No matter what your view on Brexit, that's pretty good going for the UK.

 

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5 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It’s difficult to know where reality ends and scaremongering begins . Looking in from the outside it’s a bit like climate change ... it’s always the worst case scenario and lots of ‘ this could happen ‘ ‘ this may happen ‘ . Looking into an unknown you can fill it in with whatever you want 

Thing is though, if 98% of climate scientists tell you somethings going to be pretty bad, and all their early predictions have come true (like stronger hurricanes etc) you'd be a moron to ignore them.

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2 minutes ago, Jasper said:

Whilst channel hopping, on one of the money/business channels on Sky (Bloomberg?) a reporter was talking about Brexit and what the future might hold for big tech companies, and he said something along the line of  'did you know' that in the last 2 years the UK  have created more ‘unicorns’  - $1bn tech companies, than France, Germany, Sweden & Holland combined and that  30% of all worldwide 'unicorns' are in the UK with another 54 potentially currently valued just under $1bn.  No matter what your view on Brexit, that's pretty good going for the UK.

 

we're still in the EU at the moment.

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4 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

Thing is though, if 98% of climate scientists tell you somethings going to be pretty bad, and all their early predictions have come true (like stronger hurricanes etc) you'd be a moron to ignore them.

I don’t think 98% of ‘experts’ agree on much , certainly not brexit . This is what sends people’s heads spinning . And eventually they’ve had enough of all of them . Whatever you’re perspective is you’ll often see it through that prism . Reports on this , think tanks on that . No one really knows do they

Edited by DavidM

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2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I don’t think 98% of ‘experts’ agree on much , certainly not brexit . This is what sends people’s heads spinning . And eventually they’ve had enough of all of them . Whatever you’re perspective is you’ll often see it through that prism . Reports on this , think tanks on that . No one really knows do they

98% is the current scientific consensus on climate change, I was merely answering your point on your own example.

Edited by RidingPie

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9 minutes ago, Jasper said:

Whilst channel hopping, on one of the money/business channels on Sky (Bloomberg?) a reporter was talking about Brexit and what the future might hold for big tech companies, and he said something along the line of  'did you know' that in the last 2 years the UK  have created more ‘unicorns’  - $1bn tech companies, than France, Germany, Sweden & Holland combined and that  30% of all worldwide 'unicorns' are in the UK with another 54 potentially currently valued just under $1bn.  No matter what your view on Brexit, that's pretty good going for the UK.

 

Great stuff. So why kick away the framework in which that has been possible?

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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8 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

we're still in the EU at the moment.

 

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Great stuff. So why kick away the framework in which that has been possible?

I wasn't being pro or con here, just stating something I heard that was a very good reflection on the UK.  I'm sure the remainers will say 'It will all collapse when we leave', whilst the leavers will say 'We will do even better when we have left."  Who knows.?

 

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22 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It’s difficult to know where reality ends and scaremongering begins . Looking in from the outside it’s a bit like climate change ... it’s always the worst case scenario and lots of ‘ this could happen ‘ ‘ this may happen ‘ . Looking into an unknown you can fill it in with whatever you want 

The 'its happened in the past, so it can't be anything to do with X' one is rolled out there too.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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40 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Had that been the case, the result could never have unified the Conservative party.  Most referenda are the status quo versus a particular option, but a losing Leave campaign would have protested that the British public were not given an option that reflected what they wanted, i.e. that it was a rejection of that type of Leave rather than Leave per se.  Cameron, as a Remainer, wanted to exclude that danger.

The cleverer, more articulate 2016 me, with much better foresight would have argued that the Conservative party needed to have a united front for both a remain and leave outcome ahead of a referendum!

As it is we are in a position were I don't see how the country gets united here, there isn't a single scenario I can see that doesn't lead to ongoing division, across the country, never mind the Conservative party.

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2 hours ago, M j M said:

I know in quite a bit of detail about importing goods because my previous company imported about £150m each year. And I know in a lot of detail about cross channel ferry traffic to the degree that I'm a bit of an expert I'm afraid.

And all I can see is absolute chaos in both these fields because people who know what they are talking about are ignored or derided and people who don't know what they are talking about are bullsh!tting or making rubbish up about muddling through.

You can't muddle through just in time deliveries. You can't muddle through if multi billion pound transport infrastructure needs fundamentally redesigning. You can't muddle through when businesses can't plan years in advance.

These are all real consequences of any hard exit and just denying they don't exist is no longer good enough.

Was this your previous company that has already gone bang? Perhaps they were doing something wrong, so perhaps what you know is not infallible?

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8 minutes ago, Jasper said:

 

I wasn't being pro or con here, just stating something I heard that was a very good reflection on the UK.  I'm sure the remainers will say 'It will all collapse when we leave', whilst the leavers will say 'We will do even better when we have left."  Who knows.?

 

Actually its not what we're saying. What we're saying is that it will make the trading environment more difficult and not that it will collapse, which is in line with many of the models.

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13 minutes ago, Jasper said:

 

I wasn't being pro or con here, just stating something I heard that was a very good reflection on the UK.  I'm sure the remainers will say 'It will all collapse when we leave', whilst the leavers will say 'We will do even better when we have left."  Who knows.?

 

Fair enough. There are certainly plenty of unicorns in the Leave prospectus.


I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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Anyway guys, I've already had enough of this thread, again. I forgot how obsessed and quite agressive with differing opinions people are on this thread.

Enjoy.

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Just now, Johnoco said:

Anyway guys, I've already had enough of this thread, again. I forgot how obsessed and quite agressive with differing opinions people are on this thread.

Enjoy.

No-one is being aggressive. A few people have asked for clarifications on things, and now you are flouncing out.

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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13 minutes ago, Jasper said:

 

I wasn't being pro or con here, just stating something I heard that was a very good reflection on the UK.  I'm sure the remainers will say 'It will all collapse when we leave', whilst the leavers will say 'We will do even better when we have left."  Who knows.?

 

Indeed . I’m not dogmatic either but that’s how it seems . One side says this , one side says that and most folk in the middle get fed up lost and admit they don’t have a clue . Models and forecasts etc have hardly proven infallible and both sides throw out all sorts to prove their point . We just don’t know . Some people find that petrifying , some exhilarating in its opportunity and most in the middle just wait n see !

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Just now, Just Browny said:

No-one is being aggressive. A few people have asked for clarifications on things, and now you are flouncing out.

See, finding a load of people agreeing with each other for almost 2 1/2  years, totally boring is not flouncing. It's being bored shatless by it and realising why you stopped in the first place.

Of course, that may be your opinion but it's nothing more than a nonsensical straw man opinion - deffo.

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4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Anyway guys, I've already had enough of this thread, again. I forgot how obsessed and quite agressive with differing opinions people are on this thread.

Enjoy.

There is absolutely zero aggression. You made one or two statements, other people countered those statements in a very matter of fact and courteous way. You'd have to search the internet very hard to find a more polite exchange. 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

How is it due to Barnier & co?  If your precious Brexiteers had started grafting at full speed in 2016 then we MIGHT JUST be able to cope with a hard Brexit because we’d have at least the skeletons of bilateral treaties on all aspects of trade done by now. Instead they’ve indulged in political narcissism and point blank refused to address any problem. 

It’s irrelevant if two businesses want to trade, if there’s no government level agreements in place then they can’t. We are walking away from them all despite the clear promises of Brexiteers prior to the referendum that we wouldn’t. 

My first paragraph is where most Remainers differ from most Leavers. We have at least admitted that Brexit could be done but it would require hard and costly work, the Leavers have relied on a deus ex machina intervention to deliver their unicorns and rainbows. They’ve deluded themselves and people like you that the lack of progress is the EU’s fault rather than them doing nothing but having internal feuds and idiot elections. The EU published a clear set of terms right after the referendum, we still haven’t provided a public counter that the Tory party agrees on never mind one the country agrees on yet the EU27 are unanimously agreed. 

So in the time honoured political sense you have side stepped the question I posed, again, what do you think the reaction of those "big businesses" of the EU will be if there is an impasse and they are no longer able to function in a market that is ready and willing to carry on doing buisness with them, as the UK will no doubt still be willing to procure their commodities, they cannot make representation to complain about losing profit to the UK Goverment, do you honestly believe they will just accept it or will they kick up a fuss with firstly their own governments and in turn the decision makers of the EU.

Another thought accured to me as I was writing this reply to your good self, with respect to the picture you painted re pharma's becoming unavailable should a no deal happen. The consequences of that happening could be catastrophic for some, considering that, do you believe that special dispensation should be afforded for these products, and if it was blocked by the EU, do you really want to be associated with the people who would allow this to happen?

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18 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

There is absolutely zero aggression. You made one or two statements, other people countered those statements in a very matter of fact and courteous way. You'd have to search the internet very hard to find a more polite exchange. 

Look at the replies in general Griff. Morons, nonsense, straw men etc etc thrown about - all of course if you don't agree Brexit will kill us all as we'll have no medicine.

It's boring anyway but I don't want this labelling just for having a different opinion. I'll struggle on ignoring it all and it won't make a blind bit of difference. And you know why? Cos they're all bent as 9 Bob notes - even the hallowed voices that urge remain are only after lining their pockets.

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4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Look at the replies in general Griff. Morons, nonsense, straw men etc etc thrown about - all of course if you don't agree Brexit will kill us all as we'll have no medicine.

Just to clear up the term strawman, which I used. This is a logical fallacy not a name calling

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

what I was referring was that I said "We rely on these model all the time in all areas of life" and you replied "Banking crashes, recessions, mass unemployment - these all happened whilst we were in the EU. But suddenly, these things would have been avoided in future by staying in."

So I'd put a statement of one thing out and instead of answering that point you chose to bring up an unrelated point that didn't really have any bearing on it.

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1 hour ago, DavidM said:

It’s difficult to know where reality ends and scaremongering begins .

It isn't really Dave ... if the house was burning down because of Brexit and Saintslass was doing a passable impression of Jeanne D'Arc they would still be denying it, or admitting anything's wrong.

35 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

....... chose to bring up an unrelated point that didn't really have any bearing on it.

In which case he'd never be lonely on here, would he?

It's all very easy to understand when you see things like this ....

"EU Parliament CHAOS: 'You IDIOT!' Tory MEP sparks FURY after claiming Hitler was left-wing"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1035671/EU-news-Nigel-Farage-Hitler-Nazi-Syed-Kamall-video-live-Conservative-Party-European-Union

“It is a strain of socialism. Let’s not pretend, it is a left-wing ideology, they want the same things as you, let’s be quite clear.”

Yes let's be very clear about the Nazi's part in the communist plot that is the EU!

Watch out though for those who will now say he doesn't represent the Teflons when he says this, and it becomes hard to tell which end of the stick to hold, the  one covered in feces  or the one with dung on it? Brexit lives down to its reputation yet again.


 

 

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