relegation

[superten]

Im not a Leigh fan , but I wouldn't relegate them . They were competitive through out season . They have a chairman who is investing in his team . They have a wonderful stadia and a reasonable support base .  I would start super league with 13 teams next season with no relegation for the next three years . In the Championship I wouldn't relegate Oldham and Bradford either yet still promote Toronto and the winners of Barrow v Whitehaven to have 13 teams in that league next season . So for three years there would be no relegation just promotions till we get a super league of 16 a championship of 16 and a league one of 16 with hopefully new teams wanting to join to take the total from  40 to 48 clubs . So teams going up in next few years would have a chance to establish themselves . Once we get 16 teams in each league them revert to one up one down throughout the leagues.   

[moorside roughyed]

1 hour ago, superten said:

Im not a Leigh fan , but I wouldn't relegate them . They were competitive through out season . They have a chairman who is investing in his team . They have a wonderful stadia and a reasonable support base .  I would start super league with 13 teams next season with no relegation for the next three years . In the Championship I wouldn't relegate Oldham and Bradford either yet still promote Toronto and the winners of Barrow v Whitehaven to have 13 teams in that league next season . So for three years there would be no relegation just promotions till we get a super league of 16 a championship of 16 and a league one of 16 with hopefully new teams wanting to join to take the total from  40 to 48 clubs . So teams going up in next few years would have a chance to establish themselves . Once we get 16 teams in each league them revert to one up one down throughout the leagues.   

Got to admit, I'd not thought of it like that.Don't think the RFL would go for it though. Although I think it could work.

[West Leeds Riviera]

3 hours ago, superten said:

Im not a Leigh fan , but I wouldn't relegate them . They were competitive through out season . They have a chairman who is investing in his team . They have a wonderful stadia and a reasonable support base .  I would start super league with 13 teams next season with no relegation for the next three years . In the Championship I wouldn't relegate Oldham and Bradford either yet still promote Toronto and the winners of Barrow v Whitehaven to have 13 teams in that league next season . So for three years there would be no relegation just promotions till we get a super league of 16 a championship of 16 and a league one of 16 with hopefully new teams wanting to join to take the total from  40 to 48 clubs . So teams going up in next few years would have a chance to establish themselves . Once we get 16 teams in each league them revert to one up one down throughout the leagues.   

Seems a good idea although a 13 team SL would make the Magic Weekend irrelevant. 

Theres enough teams to have a 16 team SL, Leigh, Toulouse, Toronto and London could easily make up the numbers. The only worry would be is there enough quality to go round 16 teams?

And 16 team SL would mean Championship would be mostly PT with only Bradford probably FT. So your still relegating FT teams into a PT league which means if your having one up one down you could end up with yoyo clubs unless you have 16th in SL play 1st in CH or 16th relegated 1st promoted and 15th V 2nd

 

[roughyedspud]

We don't have the talent to have a 16 team top league

[Padge]

9 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

We don't have the talent to have a 16 team top league

 

We don't have the talent for 12.

[Adeybull]

45 minutes ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

And 16 team SL would mean Championship would be mostly PT with only Bradford probably FT.

Bradford will now be substantially part-time, with a handful of full-timers.

The Gulf continues to widen.

The improved Sky monies saved clubs like Wakefield. The only way from the championship to SL is a rich owner prepared to bankroll a club over several seasons.

End result of the 8-8-8 system after three years: exactly the same clubs in SL as at the start.  Speaks volumes, I would say?

[BenGilesRL]

People keep wanting to get all the decent team stuff in a super League even if they don't cut it, seeing the Championship as a ###### competition no one wants to be in.

Doing this fulfills the prophecy.

they should allow the Championship to stengthen and with that increase the worth and challenge of qualifying for super league, and being in it for the clubs that are.

That way the whole sport progresses as more funding comes into the Championship and then teams won't fear relegation or worry about their mortgages through relegation, thus allowing drama to exist without perceived extreme consequences.

which by the way - if you're a professional sports person you have to treat as a reality. 

If you're good enough you will get paid enough, that has been and always will be the way. So you have to plan for the possibility you won't be good enough

[Adeybull]

36 minutes ago, BenGilesRL said:

they should allow the Championship to stengthen and with that increase the worth and challenge of qualifying for super league, and being in it for the clubs that are.

The only way that would happen, though, is by re-allocating a much bigger chuck of the central funding (i.e. the Sky monies) to the Championship?

I think I see a slight impediment to the prospects of such a change being voted through...?

Whether freeing the Championship from the Sky deal, which for the Championship has proved a total and utter scandal (Sky hold the rights but will not show the games - all they are doing is blocking any competitor RL broadcaster) would help would depend on whether the Championship could command a decent TV deal on its own.  I would not be hopeful, sadly.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, BenGilesRL said:

People keep wanting to get all the decent team stuff in a super League even if they don't cut it, seeing the Championship as a ###### competition no one wants to be in.

Doing this fulfills the prophecy.

they should allow the Championship to stengthen and with that increase the worth and challenge of qualifying for super league, and being in it for the clubs that are.

That way the whole sport progresses as more funding comes into the Championship and then teams won't fear relegation or worry about their mortgages through relegation, thus allowing drama to exist without perceived extreme consequences.

which by the way - if you're a professional sports person you have to treat as a reality. 

If you're good enough you will get paid enough, that has been and always will be the way. So you have to plan for the possibility you won't be good enough

Far too much sense in this post for it to be on here.

[Tongs ya bas]

1 hour ago, BenGilesRL said:

People keep wanting to get all the decent team stuff in a super League even if they don't cut it, seeing the Championship as a ###### competition no one wants to be in.

Doing this fulfills the prophecy.

they should allow the Championship to stengthen and with that increase the worth and challenge of qualifying for super league, and being in it for the clubs that are.

That way the whole sport progresses as more funding comes into the Championship and then teams won't fear relegation or worry about their mortgages through relegation, thus allowing drama to exist without perceived extreme consequences.

which by the way - if you're a professional sports person you have to treat as a reality. 

If you're good enough you will get paid enough, that has been and always will be the way. So you have to plan for the possibility you won't be good enough

No one?  I would say that Featherstone, Halifax, London, Leigh, Toronto and Toulouse don't want to be in it, maybe one other. Of those only two of them have a hope in bell of actually making any kind of contribution to it.

[superten]

think people are missing the point of building super league and championship up slowly don't just put teams I straight away . One team at a time with in three years with out threat of relegation giving team chance to build . Slowly building up to 16 team comps in each league . Allowing teams like Toulouse , Toronto or London a chance to go up and get established. Like teams in league one going up to championship giving team time to establish them selves with in the championship.   

[Trojan]

4 hours ago, Padge said:

 

We don't have the talent for 12.

Would that be one of the major achievements of Super League?

[Padge]

20 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Would that be one of the major achievements of Super League?

We have never had enough talent for 12 top teams, and I mean never ever.

[Trojan]

Just now, Padge said:

We have never had enough talent for 12 top teams, and I mean never ever.

But wasn't Super League supposed to remedy that fault.  I'm sure I can remember Mo saying that we'd now be able to take on the Aussies with a good chance of winning a series. Maybe I imagined it, maybe not.

[westlondonfan]

I think that they should aim for a 16 team SL as suggested. They may need a place available for Bradford and perhaps another for another North American team soon though.

Maybe the championship should be a part time competition .

[Padge]

42 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But wasn't Super League supposed to remedy that fault.  I'm sure I can remember Mo saying that we'd now be able to take on the Aussies with a good chance of winning a series. Maybe I imagined it, maybe not.

 

Well we went from 1 to 6, that's a pretty impressive increase.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

7 minutes ago, Padge said:

 

Well we went from 1 to 6, that's a pretty impressive increase.

Not convinced we have 6, but I'll give you the benefit. Anyway, so we've gained 5 in 22 seasons, hardly that impressive is it really? And we'll only have to wait till 2043 before we have 12!

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Trojan said:

But wasn't Super League supposed to remedy that fault.  I'm sure I can remember Mo saying that we'd now be able to take on the Aussies with a good chance of winning a series. Maybe I imagined it, maybe not.

Admittedly without it we'd be much further away.

[Captain Survival]

9 hours ago, superten said:

Im not a Leigh fan , but I wouldn't relegate them . They were competitive through out season . They have a chairman who is investing in his team . They have a wonderful stadia and a reasonable support base .  I would start super league with 13 teams next season with no relegation for the next three years . In the Championship I wouldn't relegate Oldham and Bradford either yet still promote Toronto and the winners of Barrow v Whitehaven to have 13 teams in that league next season . So for three years there would be no relegation just promotions till we get a super league of 16 a championship of 16 and a league one of 16 with hopefully new teams wanting to join to take the total from  40 to 48 clubs . So teams going up in next few years would have a chance to establish themselves . Once we get 16 teams in each league them revert to one up one down throughout the leagues.   

I think this is a very interesting proposal although regretfully it has no chance.  I wonder however if the league is thinking about something mirroring this post 2018 - was their not to be a big meeting last week about post 2018 by the big oompahs?

I suspect potential North American investors for new franchises will want to know the lay of the land before they belly up to the table - I would were I in their shoes.  Nor will any significant tv money from North America commit for the same reasons.

On the talent issue - if RL gains a significant foothold in NA your talent worries are over.  The pool of quality athletes is so huge that I can easily imagine some quality athletes giving RL rugby serious consideration.  TWP already have one Canadian and 1 American on roster and the latter was a switchover from our style of football who made the transition in only 3 yrs.   I know its hard for UK based fans to get a handle on how deep the athletic talent pool is over here, but I assure you as  former competitive athlete it is immense.  If RL catches the public fancy the floodgates will open and it will take less time then you think for more to progress to a competitive level. However, I have discussed this before and I mention this only as an aside to the main point made Superten.

[Magic XIII]

Respect to Leigh, see you at Broncos next year. 

I have always said the optimum league structure for rugby league, a game that needs to harness its roots but at the same time recognise it needs to grow to survive, has now to expand the elite level, maintain the dream for clubs outside the top level, facilitate the best crowds (derbies), revenue, attractiveness to sponsorship.

The only way is by 2 largely ‘geographic’ conferences of 8 teams. Teams play their own conference home and away, the other conference home or away, one of which is Magic. Conferences play offs and a GF. Bottom of each conf play off to play top of Championship for promo/releg. 21 games, play offs, leaves for restructured Challenge Cup (final in May) and Conference ‘State’ of Origin. The first conferences formed at the end of next season, 12 SL teams plus top 4 in Championship (invited).

No salary cap, no overseas limit. Minimum criteria to be reviewed.

The conferences could look like 1) Leigh Wigan Warrington St Helens Widnes Salford Toulouse Catalans 2) Leeds Hull Hull KR Castleford Wakefield Huddersfield Toronto London (or Fax or Fev or Barrow, .......)

What’s not to like?

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Tongs ya bas said:

No one?  I would say that Featherstone, Halifax, London, Leigh, Toronto and Toulouse don't want to be in it, maybe one other. Of those only two of them have a hope in bell of actually making any kind of contribution to it.

I think thats a bit of a harsh assessment. The very nature of second divisions in any sport is that most of the teams at the top of said division ultimately don't want to be there. This is true of all lower divisions in fact. But also true is that for a lot of teams the championship is a great achievement. That doesn't stop it being an exciting competition in itself it just means its not the absolute pinnacle and thus has to be sold differently. 

As an aside I think we have to reach a stage where professional RL in the Northern Hemisphere isn't ideologically connected to being in SL. The more professional sides below the SL the better for the game overall as it reduces the stresses of relegation and offers more employment opportunities. NA expansion as well as repeated rumours of a 3rd French club will probably be the short term way this is achieved, but ultimately to be considered a big deal the championship needs some big British clubs playing in it. In Bradford and Hull KR they've had that, what it needs is more. Take football, the Championship currently contains a handful of the largest clubs in England and almost all of the League have been in the PL at some point. By comparison our championship has now only got Leigh, Halifax, back from the dead Sheffield and an unrecogniseable London Broncos who have tasted the top flight in the past 22 years. 

Fundamentally this is what needs to change from the perspective of improving the prospects of the championship imo. Though this doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for SL in the short term also. How it happens in a financially sustainable way is also a difficult question.

[Tongs ya bas]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I think thats a bit of a harsh assessment. The very nature of second divisions in any sport is that most of the teams at the top of said division ultimately don't want to be there. This is true of all lower divisions in fact. But also true is that for a lot of teams the championship is a great achievement. That doesn't stop it being an exciting competition in itself it just means its not the absolute pinnacle and thus has to be sold differently. 

As an aside I think we have to reach a stage where professional RL in the Northern Hemisphere isn't ideologically connected to being in SL. The more professional sides below the SL the better for the game overall as it reduces the stresses of relegation and offers more employment opportunities. NA expansion as well as repeated rumours of a 3rd French club will probably be the short term way this is achieved, but ultimately to be considered a big deal the championship needs some big British clubs playing in it. In Bradford and Hull KR they've had that, what it needs is more. Take football, the Championship currently contains a handful of the largest clubs in England and almost all of the League have been in the PL at some point. By comparison our championship has now only got Leigh, Halifax, back from the dead Sheffield and an unrecogniseable London Broncos who have tasted the top flight in the past 22 years. 

Fundamentally this is what needs to change from the perspective of improving the prospects of the championship imo. Though this doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for SL in the short term also. How it happens in a financially sustainable way is also a difficult question.

Your first paragraph is what I'm actually saying Tommy. There are those for whom being in the championship is an achievement. There are those , like Batley who are happy to be competitive within it. The person I was replying to said that 'no one' wanted to be in the championship.

Your subsequent comments have a great deal going for them

[Tongs ya bas]

1 hour ago, Trojan said:

But wasn't Super League supposed to remedy that fault.  I'm sure I can remember Mo saying that we'd now be able to take on the Aussies with a good chance of winning a series. Maybe I imagined it, maybe not.

We were within an ace of reaching the last world cup final

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Magic XIII said:

Respect to Leigh, see you at Broncos next year. 

I have always said the optimum league structure for rugby league, a game that needs to harness its roots but at the same time recognise it needs to grow to survive, has now to expand the elite level, maintain the dream for clubs outside the top level, facilitate the best crowds (derbies), revenue, attractiveness to sponsorship.

The only way is by 2 largely ‘geographic’ conferences of 8 teams. Teams play their own conference home and away, the other conference home or away, one of which is Magic. Conferences play offs and a GF. Bottom of each conf play off to play top of Championship for promo/releg. 21 games, play offs, leaves for restructured Challenge Cup (final in May) and Conference ‘State’ of Origin. The first conferences formed at the end of next season, 12 SL teams plus top 4 in Championship (invited).

No salary cap, no overseas limit. Minimum criteria to be reviewed.

The conferences could look like 1) Leigh Wigan Warrington St Helens Widnes Salford Toulouse Catalans 2) Leeds Hull Hull KR Castleford Wakefield Huddersfield Toronto London (or Fax or Fev or Barrow, .......)

What’s not to like?

Those divisions are unbalanced geographically, so they don't make sense.  To have geographic divisions, you would need the same numbers of top teams in Europe and over here in America, then you could have a European Division and an American Division.

[Trojan]

3 hours ago, Tongs ya bas said:

We were within an ace of reaching the last world cup final

But we didn't reach it, neither did we reach the one in 2008 nor the one in 2000. The last one we reached was 1995 before the SL era.