England team For France Match

[Exiled Wiganer]

I like the team as it gives us a chance to see Percival and Brown in action in their preferred positions. Widdop can play at 6 in attack during the game if we like. I genuinely think that Brown would be a better bet than Williams as when he is on his game he brings a sense of the unexpected and can still bring others into play. Glad that Taylor is getting a run he is pure class. Come on England!

[Scubby]

27 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

I wrote a squad out a few week ago..let me go find it

Found it..

Wrote that 2-3 week ago

It isn't that different really - I was expecting something more radical . I know you are a Matty Smith fan but Gale is getting a rough ride IMO. It is obvious he is being asked to play a certain way and wider out. It is really effecting his game (those kicks in the second half v Lebabon a prime example). But one scrum half on the trip is a waste (why did we take all those props FFS?)

In 2014, Roby was the main man at 9 and he provides quick ball. Hodgson has lost his way a bit - he is trying to do too much. The problem is we are again trying combinations on the job which England has done since as long as I can remember. We don't play enough and now we have squads split in different parts of the world. Widdop at full back may work this week but why are we doing this now?

[telliner]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Serously though is it Bennett, or is it something that is endemic with whatever group of players we put together, we all as fans have expectation at the onset of tours or tournaments and have done so for a very long time but all to often we seem to have that enthusiasm very soon eroded with underperforming where it really matters on the field of play.

I am not backing Bennett but it seems we have been playing the same tune for longer than I care to remember, we now have Bennett as the organ grinder but I also the recall the music being criticised whoever was turning the handle of the GB/England organ be it MacNamara, Smith, Noble, Waite, Goodway, Larder, Hanley, Reilly, Bamford, Myler, Ashton, Fox, Watkins, Challinor, back to Johnny Whitley in 1970 when he won the ashes down under, albeit he did have a second stint from '80 to '82 with not very good returns.

OK, we have won some series v NZ along the way, and for me the best period was under Mal Reilly, or did he have our best players together at that time, Don't forget at lot of the players from that period "guested" for Aussie clubs in our off season, and a good percentage of them were halfs and threequarters not just forwards as we find today, Widdop being the exception. 

So is the job of being the National coach of the RFL a poison chalis, is it that we have far to much expectation of player's who promise so much but simply are not quite good enough at the top level? 

Its not a poisoned Chalice,far from it but look at the way THE Rugby League has been run since post war in both finances and administration not exactly textbook.We had a Chalice and poisoned it.RL has always had this obsequious inferiority complex to its pompous stuffy twin.And when League was in a position where it actually bossed Yawnion,the admin was appallingly incompetant.So forgive my long winded-ness but how do you expect them to appoint a coach?organise finances?eres a good one,MARKET a sport or tournament?

In 1992 we were a John Devereux out of position missed tackle from a world cup win,NOT getting beat in a semi final.The 90's we were just getting the formula and........."oh lets do  the Oz style" Were about as close as the dark grim 70's.Tony Smith said it England need to get back to 60's off the cuff ,set plays,we had the wheel fixed then whats gone wrong?(ive got my own ideas)

[GeordieSaint]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not convinced thats the case tbh, I see them as quite different players - Williams more of a little jinking runner and Brown as a more traditional ball playing kicking half.

Opinions eh... ?  I’d worry about or organisation with both of those starting to together; not that we actually had any at the weekend though.

[East Coast Tiger]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Its makin non-neutral refs the norm so that when the Aussies make the final they can have little challenge to having an Aussie ref.

 

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Or even worse give us an English referee who instantly gets put under unnecessary pressure. Imagine Bentham or Thaler having to give the Whitehead strip penalty with 5 minutes to go with England leading 10-4 in the World Cup final. It would make me uncomfortable never mind the ref and players.

I felt bad when Thaler was giving England 50/50 calls and repeat sets against Lebanon. We just don't need this in the big games.

Hahahaha. You've got all the bases covered boys, as usual. 

What happens if Perenara gets it? Then we'll have the "but but he's an NRL ref" and "he's looking after his Aussies masters" lines.

 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, East Coast Tiger said:

 

Hahahaha. You've got all the bases covered boys, as usual. 

What happens if Perenara gets it? Then we'll have the "but but he's an NRL ref" and "he's looking after his Aussies masters" lines.

 

It won't change the fact that we are playing games right through the tournament without neutral refs.

You can see that the English don't want English refs can't you - yet you obviously want Aussie refs. Other sports moved away from this model years ago, yet we have moved TO this model.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, East Coast Tiger said:

 

Hahahaha. You've got all the bases covered boys, as usual. 

What happens if Perenara gets it? Then we'll have the "but but he's an NRL ref" and "he's looking after his Aussies masters" lines.

 

I just want to stop talking about it. When England are playing in a World Cup I do not expect to hear the voice of Ben Thaler with a whistle in his hand and Phil Bentham in the VR ref box. I don't want to see that - full stop!

Similarly when England are playing in the World Cup I do not want to hear the voice of a referee from the same country as their opponents - either on the field or in the VR box. It cannot be simpler than that.

 

[Scubby]

20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not convinced thats the case tbh, I see them as quite different players - Williams more of a little jinking runner and Brown as a more traditional ball playing kicking half.

I think they could complement each other nicely.

So you want another combination tried - I don't blame you lol. Reflecting on all this, we would probably have worked better with Widdop and Danny McGuire for this comeptition. Both are used to high pressure games and would not be phased. McGuire has developed a very tidy kicking game since he slowed down.

Gale had to go on the plane and we are right to play him - it made perfect sense. The problem I suppose at the very highest level is that a late bloomer just hasn't got the miles on the clock in big games. The argument is if you stick with Gale for a couple of years we may get the product we are all hoping for. Have we got that patience though?

[East Coast Tiger]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It won't change the fact that we are playing games right through the tournament without neutral refs.

You can see that the English don't want English refs can't you - yet you obviously want Aussie refs. Other sports moved away from this model years ago, yet we have moved TO this model.

And then when you get them you'll come up with increasingly ridiculous conspiracy theories as to why England lost. Just like every other time Perenara and others have reffed and England has lost. I hope they do give it to him and we can put it to the test. Only problem is, England won't make it and the excuses will come a week early when an evil Australian ref cheats poor old England in the semis. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Scubby said:

So you want another combination tried - I don't blame you lol. Reflecting on all this, we would probably have worked better with Widdop and Danny McGuire for this comeptition. Both are used to high pressure games and would not be phased. McGuire has developed a very tidy kicking game since he slowed down.

Gale had to go on the plane and we are right to play him - it made perfect sense. The problem I suppose at the very highest level is that a late bloomer just hasn't got the miles on the clock in big games. The argument is if you stick with Gale for a couple of years we may get the product we are all hoping for. Have we got that patience though?

No I want us to stick with Gale and Widdopp if we feel they are the best players, and this year one has been MoS and the other has been Dally M number 6. 

The complexity comes in when Lomax is injured and McGivallray could be banned. We will have to make changes and that may need to come in the form of Widdop to fullback as he doesn't seem to rate Ratchford enough.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, telliner said:

Its not a poisoned Chalice,far from it but look at the way THE Rugby League has been run since post war in both finances and administration not exactly textbook.We had a Chalice and poisoned it.RL has always had this obsequious inferiority complex to its pompous stuffy twin.And when League was in a position where it actually bossed Yawnion,the admin was appallingly incompetant.So forgive my long winded-ness but how do you expect them to appoint a coach?organise finances?eres a good one,MARKET a sport or tournament?

In 1992 we were a John Devereux out of position missed tackle from a world cup win,NOT getting beat in a semi final.The 90's we were just getting the formula and........."oh lets do  the Oz style" Were about as close as the dark grim 70's.Tony Smith said it England need to get back to 60's off the cuff ,set plays,we had the wheel fixed then whats gone wrong?(ive got my own ideas)

Thank you for your reply Telliner, firstly I well remember seeing Steve Renaufs backside going in the distance towards our try line after passing Devereux from my seat in the stand, you also may recall that was in the Mal Reilly era I enthused about, when again from my vantage point in the stand a few months earlier I watched Martin Offiah do exactly the same when passing Andrew Ettingshousen.

Also agree with you re playing our own brand of football not the Aussie style,  but what chance have we had in the last 15 years or so with Waite, Smith to a certain degree and now Bennett who for the last 30 years has been one of the main architect's of the Aussie style of play.

But realistically we have had another 25 years in the period I quote when our trophy cabinet has been quite barren, my question was "is it all down to the coaches we have employed or are we simply not as good as we would like to think we are"?

It seems to me that you consider that our game has been held back through years of bad management and through that not produced enough players of the right quality while all the while we have been going backwards the antipodes have been going forward creating a bigger gulf, I would not disagree with that, do you consider that we can still turn it around?

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, East Coast Tiger said:

And then when you get them you'll come up with increasingly ridiculous conspiracy theories as to why England lost. Just like every other time Perenara and others have reffed and England has lost. I hope they do give it to him and we can put it to the test. Only problem is, England won't make it and the excuses will come a week early when an evil Australian ref cheats poor old England in the semis. 

You are guilty of judging others by Aussie standards. Or you just can't really read and understand things.

England fans are well aware that we are 3rd favourites, and are likely to get knocked out in the semi finals. A final appearance would be progress on the last few tournaments. We know that the Aussies are the best team in the world and are better than England.

There are no excuses as to why we lose.

But having an Aussie ref, refereeing Australia v England, in Australia - when that ref hasn't been refereeing games on his own, is bizarre to say the least.

Once again, you have popped up simply to have a go at fans, you should try discussing the actual Rugby or the World Cup - it is enjoyable.

Talk about persecution complex.

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No I want us to stick with Gale and Widdopp if we feel they are the best players, and this year one has been MoS and the other has been Dally M number 6. 

The complexity comes in when Lomax is injured and McGivallray could be banned. We will have to make changes and that may need to come in the form of Widdop to fullback as he doesn't seem to rate Ratchford enough.

I will be watching this one closely to see how Widdop is used in the game. Brown will probably have a blinder like he did against Samoa just to make things more complicated.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Scubby said:

So you want another combination tried - I don't blame you lol. Reflecting on all this, we would probably have worked better with Widdop and Danny McGuire for this comeptition. Both are used to high pressure games and would not be phased. McGuire has developed a very tidy kicking game since he slowed down.

Gale had to go on the plane and we are right to play him - it made perfect sense. The problem I suppose at the very highest level is that a late bloomer just hasn't got the miles on the clock in big games. The argument is if you stick with Gale for a couple of years we may get the product we are all hoping for. Have we got that patience though?

We have in the past with underperformers on the International stage who have been good at domestic level, why should it be any different now?

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No I want us to stick with Gale and Widdopp if we feel they are the best players, and this year one has been MoS and the other has been Dally M number 6. 

The complexity comes in when Lomax is injured and McGivallray could be banned. We will have to make changes and that may need to come in the form of Widdop to fullback as he doesn't seem to rate Ratchford enough.

Be perfectly honest, how many actually do rate Ratchford enough, he will retire with the gong of being an England International when there have been so many so much better not to recieve the accolade,  in my opinion probably the second worst Full Back I have seen in an England shirt since Paul Atcheson.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Be perfectly honest, how many actually do rate Ratchford enough, he will retire with the gong of being an England International when there have been so many so much better not to recieve the accolade,  in my opinion probably the second worst Full Back I have seen in an England shirt since Paul Atcheson.

I clearly rate him higher than you, but not much, you don't need to discuss Rathford's shortcomings with me!

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We have in the past with underperformers on the International stage who have been good at domestic level, why should it be any different now?

We just don't play enough rep games to find out. By November each year exactly who is in or out of form? Gale looks overawed and we either stick with him and tell him he is the man for the next couple of years or bin him. If we bin him he will still be outshining all the other half backs on a weekly basis. The well is almost dry for quality spine players in SL unfortunately. 

[andyscoot]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

Both are natural stand offs.

Didn't Williams play all his junior rugby at 7?

[telliner]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thank you for your reply Telliner, firstly I well remember seeing Steve Renaufs backside going in the distance towards our try line after passing Devereux from my seat in the stand, you also may recall that was in the Mal Reilly era I enthused about, when again from my vantage point in the stand a few months earlier I watched Martin Offiah do exactly the same when passing Andrew Ettingshousen.

Also agree with you re playing our own brand of football not the Aussie style,  but what chance have we had in the last 15 years or so with Waite, Smith to a certain degree and now Bennett who for the last 30 years has been one of the main architect's of the Aussie style of play.

But realistically we have had another 25 years in the period I quote when our trophy cabinet has been quite barren, my question was "is it all down to the coaches we have employed or are we simply not as good as we would like to think we are"?

It seems to me that you consider that our game has been held back through years of bad management and through that not produced enough players of the right quality while all the while we have been going backwards the antipodes have been going forward creating a bigger gulf, I would not disagree with that, do you consider that we can still turn it around?

Thanks for erudite response.In answer to your question/s "Is it down to the coaches we appoint and are we not as good as we like to think we are"?

Harry tbh i think it requires a Lord Scarman RL enquiry its quite a complex enigma 'RL and its failure'.so many facets to bring into question.Thats why i alluded to the horrible mismanagement of a sport in its pomp ,in the post war years.It seems RL has this uncanny ability to appoint charlatans anybody with clear vision is run down with a brand of northern pragmatism only RL can muster.Example Toront Wolfpack owner and entrepaneur Perez.A dreamer?,unrealistic? no niether hes not restricted by Rls self inflating straight jacket.

Harry youve heard the term ' beaten before they entered the ring?England have adopted this sort of sporting Stockholm syndrome.Its time to inculcate a little disrespect for Oz into the England psyche to eliminate the ' curse'.

Its a bit of both our players overall not as good but we are competative .The coaches we appointvare have been oz robots atpart from Malcolm Rielly,I think Elery might have done it too.our king arthur is gonna be Darryl Powall no doubts at all.Back to drawing board rip up the ozzy software and get BRITISH oh to see the sublime ball playing of a Harry Pinner off load or an Alex Murphy ripping holes and totally getting in thier heads.

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Scubby said:

We just don't play enough rep games to find out. By November each year exactly who is in or out of form? Gale looks overawed and we either stick with him and tell him he is the man for the next couple of years or bin him. If we bin him he will still be outshining all the other half backs on a weekly basis. The well is almost dry for quality spine players in SL unfortunately. 

Agree with that Scubby, albeit that November selection thingy was thrown out of the window in the last WC when the halfs were named in February of that season irrespective of form, for that reason we lost our most influential player that season in Danny Brough, who knows if he wpuld have made any difference.

So, you consider that he could well be the best creative player for the next couple of years, what should that tell us, do we select player's around the tactics of any particular coach, or should we be formulating a team based on qualities of the player's and tge system they play under.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, andyscoot said:

Didn't Williams play all his junior rugby at 7?

May well have done, but I bet he was one of the bigger faster lads, to me he is much better left alone to play his own game than to have tge responsibilities of calling and promoting team plays.

[Southstander13]

Roby at hooker will help Gale, he gets early ball off the ground from the play the ball and gets more time to make the plays. Hodgson likes to pick it up take a few steps and then pass, and by that point the defensive line is already up in the face of Gale. Hodgson is a great player and I really rate him, but he does hinder Gale and reduces the time Gale has to get the kicks in. 

[Southstander13]

I have to agree with the mention of Darryl Powell as the next England coach. I feel like with him we would play the way we all want to play. He could do the job and stay as Cas coach, I wouldn't have an issue with that!

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Southstander13 said:

I have to agree with the mention of Darryl Powell as the next England coach. I feel like with him we would play the way we all want to play. He could do the job and stay as Cas coach, I wouldn't have an issue with that!

Powell has resurrected the style of play that he was so familiar with, the game he played himself in his era of the 80's early 90's, people say that the methods of defences are to good today to play that kind of expansive football, well he has certainly dispelled that theory.

[Old Frightful]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

getting our spine working like a well oiled machine.

This somewhat radical approach doesn't seem to have done the Scottish squad much good.