Harry Smith (Wigan) and Tom Dearden (Broncos)

[Colin James]

8 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Can you expand on how that works please.  Will he train exclusively with Wigan or Wigan and Swinton alternately because Swinton are part time and so train less often?  If it is the former, it cannot be ideal for a team (Swinton) to only have access to have access to a half back for game day when he is such an integral part of the game plan.

Wigan are full time. They train in the day when Swinton players are at work. The Lions train a few hours in an evening twice a week and on a Saturday morning.

Wigan won't just allow Smith to become part time and only train a few hours a week because he's out on loan. He'll train with both sides.

[Rupert Prince]

Hello Johnny Plath...

Yes all you say is broadly true. The Aussie 2nd tier and lower are all proud teams in their right.  As indeed are lower tiers in UK. 

But for all that pride and aspiration (and there are as you say a few, very few, Aussie lower teams how might desire to rise to the top table), for all of that, there are vanishingly few UK clubs that could ever rise up to be viable top tier teams. 

On the immediate issue we were discussing (zero relegation), DL in the NRL makes perfect sense and is on top of a structured tier of junior football.  The RLF's structure once again confounds itself and it seems to me it will strangle itself without drastic reform

Pride is one thing, but does it mean anything without fulfilment?  There is nothing wrong in having dignity, honour and self worth, even if one is a lower tier club. Achievement comes in many guises.

[Dunbar]

17 hours ago, johnny plath said:

Brisbane started the trend by playing its reserve players in the Toowoomba team in the Qld State league in the late 1990s, although the extent of the current feeder arrangements took a number of years to evolve into what it is now. 

The Brisbane situation was very unique though. They were founded in 1988 and once created they essentially sat above the Brisbane comp in the wider national league. As such, they didn't have the decades of rivalry that UK teams do and could create relationships with the Queensland comp team.

I'm not criticizing your post at all because I agree with it, just pointing out this interesting situation.

[Dunbar]

So, since the last time we updated this thread in February, Tom Dearden has gone on to play in the last 4 NRL games for the Broncos. His coach has made it known that he sees Dearden as his long term number 7 and has backed him to succeed. 

Harry Smith comprehensively outplayed Dearden in the Academy series and I would love to see him as the Wigan number 7. I have been looking out for him but I don't think he has made his first team debut yet (happy to be corrected).

I know some people say he has to learn his trade and Swinton is the place to do that but surely the Australian attitude of putting the best youngsters into their teams and developing their game while playing with and against the elite players is demonstrated as successful.

I want Smith playing in Super League and developing his game as he does it.

[Wigan Riversider]

40 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

So, since the last time we updated this thread in February, Tom Dearden has gone on to play in the last 4 NRL games for the Broncos. His coach has made it known that he sees Dearden as his long term number 7 and has backed him to succeed. 

Harry Smith comprehensively outplayed Dearden in the Academy series and I would love to see him as the Wigan number 7. I have been looking out for him but I don't think he has made his first team debut yet (happy to be corrected).

I know some people say he has to learn his trade and Swinton is the place to do that but surely the Australian attitude of putting the best youngsters into their teams and developing their game while playing with and against the elite players is demonstrated as successful.

I want Smith playing in Super League and developing his game as he does it.

Amen to every single word of the above!

Did you read my thread on Harry Smith from a few weeks ago?

Thanks again

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Amen to every single word of the above!

Did you read my thread on Harry Smith from a few weeks ago?

Thanks again

Sorry, no I didn't, I haven't been able to get onto here as often in the last couple of months.

 Apologies, I would have contributed to that thread rather than dig this old one up... but an fascinated by watching the careers of Dearden and Smith develop as Smith was outstanding in the junior series and it would be a travesty of Dearden out shone him in the long run.

[Moove]

Interesting thread reading back.

What I find odd actually is that with so many of our coaches being from down under and their familiarity with the success the Australian system has had with the transition from U19 to first team, how little influence there seems to have been on the systems over here.

It's probably the reason I was pleased with Saints appointing Holbrook with his experience with the Junior Kangaroos. Jack Welsby at 18 has managed to get half a dozen games under his belt this season which is great to see, but it's dipping in and out of the first team in various positions. Maybe at that age it doesn't really matter where you're playing as long as you're getting experience on the field. I suppose it's easier to drip feed into a winning team as well.

It's taken longer for the likes of Lees, Costello and Smith to get game time with the first team, they're 21/22 now with the latter in particular still only having played a handful of games for Saints. If he's expected to take over from Roby, he'll likely be doing so at 24 with something like 20-25 first team games to his name. That's a lot of pressure and a lot of development time missed.

I do think reserves will help a little. It'll give an opportunity for the best of the youngsters to mix it with more seasoned pros whilst staying within their club structures. But as it's not likely to be particularly competitive I can't see it really bridging the gap when it comes to developing depth at top international level.

[Dunbar]

The thing is I don't think there is anything complicated here.

Dearden is training and playing with the Broncos first team. He is being developed as an NRL player by a coach who has put his trust in him. He isn't the finished article by a long way but he will develop quickly by being exposed to this level.

Harry Smith was at least as good as Dearden last year (I thought better) but he isn't going to progress as quickly playing in a lower division with poorer coaching and surrounded by lesser players. This is not meant as a slight to those at Swinton but merely factual.

This may only be a disparity for a few months but if it turns into a season or two then we only have ourselves to blame if Dearden is a better player than Smith when they hit 24/25.

[Davo5]

8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The thing is I don't think there is anything complicated here.

Dearden is training and playing with the Broncos first team. He is being developed as an NRL player by a coach who has put his trust in him. He isn't the finished article by a long way but he will develop quickly by being exposed to this level.

Harry Smith was at least as good as Dearden last year (I thought better) but he isn't going to progress as quickly playing in a lower division with poorer coaching and surrounded by lesser players. This is not meant as a slight to those at Swinton but merely factual.

This may only be a disparity for a few months but if it turns into a season or two then we only have ourselves to blame if Dearden is a better player than Smith when they hit 24/25.

Surprised with Smith's lack of opportunities given Lam's coaching background,let's face it bringing Smith into the halves and moving Leuluai back to 9 in place of Powell isn't going to weaken Wigan.

[Rupert Prince]

Wigan have brought in a number of players from the academy this season because of injuries.  It's not easy for a young forward to get established against the big boys, but Smithies is getting in regularly.  So Wigan are indeed bringing on young players. 

I do not know enough about Smith.  But he will we must I'm sure get his chance.  Wigan are disrupted enough so I for one will be patient.

[DoubleD]

40 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The thing is I don't think there is anything complicated here.

Dearden is training and playing with the Broncos first team. He is being developed as an NRL player by a coach who has put his trust in him. He isn't the finished article by a long way but he will develop quickly by being exposed to this level.

Harry Smith was at least as good as Dearden last year (I thought better) but he isn't going to progress as quickly playing in a lower division with poorer coaching and surrounded by lesser players. This is not meant as a slight to those at Swinton but merely factual.

This may only be a disparity for a few months but if it turns into a season or two then we only have ourselves to blame if Dearden is a better player than Smith when they hit 24/25.

In fairness, Deardon probably wouldn’t have got a game this year if Nikorima hadn’t wanted to leave to go to the Warriors

[Lowdesert]

24 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Surprised with Smith's lack of opportunities given Lam's coaching background,let's face it bringing Smith into the halves and moving Leuluai back to 9 in place of Powell isn't going to weaken Wigan.

I’ve read a few reports on the Swinton games and Smith has been starting at half back.  Given its a brutal league and Swinton are up against it, he won’t have had it easy.  Playing in a side a league up, that is organised, everyone does their job etc would be probably easier, apart from the speed of the game.

imo, finish the season at Swinton and he’ll be ready to go at Wigan.

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

In fairness, Deardon probably wouldn’t have got a game this year if Nikorima hadn’t wanted to leave to go to the Warriors

That's fair. But equally the Broncos may bit have been so flexible in letting Nikorima leave if they didn't have faith in Dearden stepping up.

[Wigan Riversider]

On 09/06/2019 at 17:22, Dunbar said:

Sorry, no I didn't, I haven't been able to get onto here as often in the last couple of months.

 Apologies, I would have contributed to that thread rather than dig this old one up... but an fascinated by watching the careers of Dearden and Smith develop as Smith was outstanding in the junior series and it would be a travesty of Dearden out shone him in the long run.

Believe Harry Smith is now at London Skolars.

Unbelievable or is it just me?

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Believe Harry Smith is now at London Skolars.

Unbelievable or is it just me?

Not just you, I find it incredible.

Against the Australian Schoolboys Smith put in the most dominant display by a British halfback I have seen in a junior team.  His tactical kicking and his defense were outstanding.

I know that people say that you go on loan to 'learn your trade' but at this stage in his career, Smith should be surrounded by Super League quality players and coaches.... just as his opposite in the tests, Tom Dearden, is immersed in the coaching and culture of the NRL at the Brisbane Broncos.

If in 5 years time Dearden is in the Kangaroo team and Smith has faded away then I can see why it has happened (p.s. this is not me wanting it to happen, I would be delighted if Smith succeeded, but I don't see this as the right path for him).

[deluded pom?]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Not just you, I find it incredible.

Against the Australian Schoolboys Smith put in the most dominant display by a British halfback I have seen in a junior team.  His tactical kicking and his defense were outstanding.

I know that people say that you go on loan to 'learn your trade' but at this stage in his career, Smith should be surrounded by Super League quality players and coaches.... just as his opposite in the tests, Tom Dearden, is immersed in the coaching and culture of the NRL at the Brisbane Broncos.

If in 5 years time Dearden is in the Kangaroo team and Smith has faded away then I can see why it has happened (p.s. this is not me wanting it to happen, I would be delighted if Smith succeeded, but I don't see this as the right path for him).

And we'll sit wondering why the Kangaroos continue to keep producing class half backs and we don't.

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

And we'll sit wondering why the Kangaroos continue to keep producing class half backs and we don't.

Indeed. 

Someone on here mentioned that when Smith was at loan at Swinton he would still be training with the Wigan squad.

Would this still be the case now at Skolars because I don't see how he can train mid-week with Wigan and play in London at the weekend... it is surely a poor outcome for both clubs and the player.  He must be based in London full time at the moment.

Look, this is no disrespect to the Skolars, they are a terrific club who have done a great job establishing themselves in London, but our very best young talent must play with and be coached by the best in order to reach their potential.

[dkw]

It's beyond me how he has been given no game time this season by Wigan considering there lack of creativity at half back, Smith will likely end up at a different SL club while Wigan replace Williams with an import. 

[Rupert Prince]

27 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Believe Harry Smith is now at London Skolars.

Unbelievable or is it just me?

Dearden got an ankle injury and an operation. 5 to 10 weeks.  Maybe Smith is better off being at Skolars.

[Rupert Prince]

1 minute ago, dkw said:

It's beyond me how he has been given no game time this season by Wigan considering there lack of creativity at half back, Smith will likely end up at a different SL club while Wigan replace Williams with an import. 

Williams is a 6. Smith is a 7. 

[Wigan Riversider]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Williams is a 6. Smith is a 7. 

Possibly wrong but didn't Wayne Bennett pick Williams for England at 7?

Shaun Edwards played 6 for several years in his career but played his best for club and country at 7.

[Rupert Prince]

5 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Possibly wrong but didn't Wayne Bennett pick Williams for England at 7?

Shaun Edwards played 6 for several years in his career but played his best for club and country at 7.

We can always be wrong but I thought Williams played 6.  But to be fair at some times these days 6 and 7 just operate on left and right.  Williams is at the moment switching to the right edge on occasion, but mostly on the left.  The question is whether Hastings plays rather on one edge or the other.

Obviously with Gregory in the side, Edwards fitted in at 6.  

[dkw]

38 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

We can always be wrong but I thought Williams played 6.  But to be fair at some times these days 6 and 7 just operate on left and right.  Williams is at the moment switching to the right edge on occasion, but mostly on the left.  The question is whether Hastings plays rather on one edge or the other.

Obviously with Gregory in the side, Edwards fitted in at 6.  

Theres not really a 6 and 7 anymore, other than feeding a scrum. Both halfs are first receivers, both halfs swap duties, most teams now often split the halfs across the the 2 sides of the pitch. I`m amazed Smith cant get in the Wigan team somewhere though, Truman at Cas got game time at Full back, others on the wing etc. Smith is a fantastic talent, I would hate to see him wasted and lost to Wigan.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

I`m amazed Smith cant get in the Wigan team somewhere though, Truman at Cas got game time at Full back, others on the wing etc. Smith is a fantastic talent, I would hate to see him wasted and lost to Wigan.

I think this is an interesting point.  From what I saw of Smith in the Academy tests his strength is his organisation and tactical kicking rather than athleticism... in other works more of a classic half back (his defense was very strong though so no weakness there).  This may to his downfall though as a coach may not want to trust his team management to a younger player.  Players like Truman have the running game to fit in at full back.

[dkw]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think this is an interesting point.  From what I saw of Smith in the Academy tests his strength is his organisation and tactical kicking rather than athleticism... in other works more of a classic half back (his defense was very strong though so no weakness there).  This may to his downfall though as a coach may not want to trust his team management to a younger player.  Players like Truman have the running game to fit in at full back.

Yeah I would agree with that, though Truman has taken on a more controlling role since Gale got injured. Smith being an organiser would work well with Williams who really needs that kind of player alongside him.