"Jihadi Bride" story

[Dave T]

47 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

If there is evidence she has committed a crime then she should definitely stand trial.

However I don't see why should that trial be in Britain? Surely the trial should be held in the country where the (alleged) crime took place. 

Maybe the first question should be why they aren't putting her on trial?

[Niels]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Maybe the first question should be why they aren't putting her on trial?

The reasons are complicated and logistical and have nothing to do with her innocence. There were 3 options. 

She could be moved to Iraq but there she would face the death penalty which as you know is an issue with the UK Government. 

The Kurds are in talks with Syria about ceding some of their territory so potentially she could be handed over to the Syrian Government.

There was also an option of an international trial in Kurdish held Syrian territory however this would be difficult without cooperation from the Syrian Government. 

 

[Wiltshire Rhino]

37 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The thing I don’t understand is that it appears she was groomed for Jihad from a very young age by an extended British based family and network.

And yet we have heard nothing about them being prosecuted.

If that is the case then they should be prosecuted here as the crime was here. 

That doesn't answer my question of why she should be tried here. 

[gingerjon]

18 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

If that is the case then they should be prosecuted here as the crime was here. 

That doesn't answer my question of why she should be tried here. 

Because the legal process of stripping of her citizenship is apparently based on evidence presented here?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

The reasons are complicated and logistical and have nothing to do with her innocence. There were 3 options. 

She could be moved to Iraq but there she would face the death penalty which as you know is an issue with the UK Government. 

The Kurds are in talks with Syria about ceding some of their territory so potentially she could be handed over to the Syrian Government.

There was also an option of an international trial in Kurdish held Syrian territory however this would be difficult without cooperation from the Syrian Government. 

 

So this can probably be summarised as 'Syria is a bit of a mess' - to me that suggests we should take a bit of responsibility for our citizens. Feels like a responsible thing to do, doesn't it?

[Dave T]

On 02/06/2019 at 14:37, GUBRATS said:

And her answer to those accusations ? , " If I hadn't done it , they would have beheaded me " , tell me how any Lawyer answers that ?

I don't think we should deny her justice or due process simply because she may be able to mount a decent defence.

And this is one of the issues here. The reality is that she was a 15 year old British girl who was groomed to join a death cult. That should be looked at objectively, and would be in a court - maybe it is why some people don't want it to go to court.

And once she was there, we know that going there isn't like a fancy hotel where you can just check out and come home if you don't like it. We have read all sorts of stories about how these brides are treated. So I suspect she could mount a reasonable defence to any bad things she did as being forced into it. 

And then there is the issue of whether there is really any decent evidence. Remember the words from the UK government for a while were that if she was guilty of any crimes she would be charged on her return. Why did that suddenly become the wrong approach? If there was genuine evidence and not just newsaper allegations, maybe it would have been easy to just bring her back and lock her up.

Or maybe the evidence was weak/not present, and the defence possible due to the fact that she was a minor when she left. 

I am supportive of coming down hard on terrorist activity, I don't think washing our hands of suspected terrorists is doing that.

[southwalesrabbitoh]

15 is quite old, especially for a female, isn't it? 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

15 is quite old, especially for a female, isn't it? 

Eh?

[southwalesrabbitoh]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Eh?

People don't mature as quickly nowadays probably, but still, how close was she to being 16 when she went? I am by instinct quite soft on criminals, but this one feels different, it almost feels as if Britain's culture is as stake here, we can't be complacent. Some are gonna call me paranoid, Corbyn supporters would call me paranoid I'm sure.

[wilsontown]

3 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

it almost feels as if Britain's culture is as stake here

You can see this two ways - part of our culture is respect for due process and the rule of law.

[southwalesrabbitoh]

4 minutes ago, wilsontown said:

You can see this two ways - part of our culture is respect for due process and the rule of law.

Well obviously, but i'm by nature quite soft, and i sometimes feel, oh let her back in here, she's a young woman, give her some help, i'm sure sh'e a lovely girl, aren't all Bangladeshi origin girls lovely? 20 yrs ago i was fairly friendly with a Bengali born woman.

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

People don't mature as quickly nowadays probably, but still, how close was she to being 16 when she went? I am by instinct quite soft on criminals, but this one feels different, it almost feels as if Britain's culture is as stake here, we can't be complacent. Some are gonna call me paranoid, Corbyn supporters would call me paranoid I'm sure.

I'm not going to call you paranoid.

I think you're missing the point on an almost epic scale.

[Niels]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

So this can probably be summarised as 'Syria is a bit of a mess' - to me that suggests we should take a bit of responsibility for our citizens. Feels like a responsible thing to do, doesn't it?

Usually. However she was a member  of Hisbah, the morality police. The local women were scared of them as they issued beatings. 

Therefore we can't see her as a victim of ISIS because she was responsible for other ordinary women being victims. 

 

[southwalesrabbitoh]

1 minute ago, Niels said:

Usually. However she was a member  of Hisbah, the morality police. The local women were scared of them as they issued beatings. 

Therefore we can't see her as a victim of ISIS because she was responsible for other ordinary women being victims. 

 

Ah, i see, okay, i assume this is accurate.

[southwalesrabbitoh]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'm not going to call you paranoid.

I think you're missing the point on an almost epic scale.

I haven't studied this much, that's probably why you said that.

[Niels]

7 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

Ah, i see, okay, i assume this is accurate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/shamima-begum-isis-syria-morality-police-suicide-belts-a8869016.html?amp

This is a link from The Independent. 

[ckn]

5 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

If there is evidence she has committed a crime then she should definitely stand trial.

However I don't see why should that trial be in Britain? Surely the trial should be held in the country where the (alleged) crime took place. 

She’s being punished by the British government without a trial.  The Syrians don’t want her and don’t want to prosecute her therefore she’s ours as a British citizen.  We simply cannot have the government deciding that someone who is wholly British is no longer British to suit the Home Secretary’s leadership ambitions.  We cannot allow the government to break international law by making someone stateless for political gain.  That way fascism lies.

[Niels]

Just now, ckn said:

She’s being punished by the British government without a trial.  The Syrians don’t want her and don’t want to prosecute her therefore she’s ours as a British citizen.  We simply cannot have the government deciding that someone who is wholly British is no longer British to suit the Home Secretary’s leadership ambitions.  We cannot allow the government to break international law by making someone stateless for political gain.  That way fascism lies.

When you say Syrians who do you mean?  The Syrian government, the Syrian Kurdish rulers of their autonomous region? The now Iraqui Government where the crimes were committed.  

If you read my post above you will see that it is not that the Syrians don't want her, and that it's far more complex than that.

I know you said you block my posts so in fairness you might not have seen it. However this is the danger of blocking people because then you are arguing without the full story.

[Kayakman]

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

. That ISIS are terrible is obvious.

 

They have their supporters...they are many in number ant totally committed to their cause of hate and death.

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

ISIS also managed to get support from regimes.

 

These regimes are no friends of ours...pressure must be applied.

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

And gained credibility with some people in western countries, and often educated people. It is okay to dismiss this as unimportant (see that was me playing the trick of making a virtue out of an opinion). The question is how do we undermine the credibility of ISIS among such potential targets.

 

Can't fix stupid or the mind of any religious zealot.  The way you undermine ISIS is the same as it has always been with such people; tell the truth.  The truth will undermine them and, by doing so, is a virtuous act in itself.  Truth Bob, that is always the way forward.

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The answer seems to be clear from western nations experience in these matters. Treat it as a legal matter, and turn your enemies into friends.  That is not nice, there is no catharsis, but it is effective. Many on this thread are happier with ISIS being stronger as long as they get catharsis- then the horror does not matter for them. Personally, I think the terror should be tackled.

They must be engaged on the battlefield and killed....this has largely been accomplished.  Their supporters need to be hunted down and locked up to contain the spread of the contamination...this is the current stage we are at.  An international court could, in the future, be established and charges laid.  We are not currently at that stage yet...it is a work in progress.

[Steve May]

1 hour ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

15 is quite old, especially for a female, isn't it? 

Not a defence you’d want to rely on in a court of law, I suspect.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Steve May said:

Not a defence you’d want to rely on in a court of law, I suspect.

She was with ISIS in their self declared government....she is considered as an adult in that society at that age.  So are males.

[southwalesrabbitoh]

6 minutes ago, Steve May said:

Not a defence you’d want to rely on in a court of law, I suspect.

But sh'e well within age for criminal charges to be brought against her in England. 

[Shadow]

15 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

She was with ISIS in their self declared government....she is considered as an adult in that society at that age.  So are males.

I don't see the relevance.

Under our laws she was / is a minor. 

[Steve May]

36 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

She was with ISIS in their self declared government....she is considered as an adult in that society at that age.  So are males.

It was a jailbait joke...

[Kayakman]

41 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I don't see the relevance.

Under our laws she was / is a minor. 

 

16 minutes ago, Steve May said:

It was a jailbait joke...

I don't think it was.   She has to answer for her crimes with the Kurds first, then the Syrians and then the Iraqis, the Kurds currently they have her person in custody.   The UK is at the bottom of a very long pecking order...but after they have tried her over there and, if convicted,  she has served her full sentence(s) then she can come to the UK and face charges there if she wishes.  She is a free person and seems capable of making her own decisions..