Independent Group

[RidingPie]

Just now, LeeF said:

The 7th has a small majority so if she stands Labour could well lose a seat 

You could read that the other way though and say if Labour stand they both lose!

[bazzzz65]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We'll start the by elections in Sheffield Hallam and go from there.

How was Jared O'Mara ever selected as a Labour candidate? 

[LeeF]

Just now, bazzzz65 said:

How was Jared O'Mara ever selected as a Labour candidate? 

Is a question many have asked but nobody has ever answered 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, bazzzz65 said:

How was Jared O'Mara ever selected as a Labour candidate? 

It's a very good question.

Mind you, I was asking the same about fox hunting Democratic Unionist, Kate Hoey, earlier ...

[ckn]

Just now, LeeF said:

Is a question many have asked but nobody has ever answered 

Theresa May's snap election forced unvetted wannabes to get seat nominations.  Same as with the SNP in 2015, a couple of candidates who were there as stand-ins and expected to lose gained their seat then were found to be thoroughly wanting and quickly had their whip removed.

[bazzzz65]

7 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

I thought we elected people not a party list? If we did you'd have an excellent point but constitutionally they certainly don't have to.

Interestingly I've always felt a change of PM should trigger a General Election regardless of which side does it.

I know we elect individuals not from a party list but on the ballot paper all candidates have their party quoted.

Morally they should have to face a by-election but then morality isn't high on many MPs list!

[RidingPie]

2 minutes ago, bazzzz65 said:

I know we elect individuals not from a party list but on the ballot paper all candidates have their party quoted.

Morally they should have to face a by-election but then morality isn't high on many MPs list!

To part quote Babylon 5 "morality has nothing to do with politics" (the actual quote is intelligence has nothing to do with politics)

[ckn]

2 minutes ago, bazzzz65 said:

I know we elect individuals not from a party list but on the ballot paper all candidates have their party quoted.

Morally they should have to face a by-election but then morality isn't high on many MPs list!

If it's OK to change PMs without a mandatory election, it's OK for MPs to change party of choice.  If May had lost the recent confidence vote, she'd have been replaced by another who would have gained confidence and kept going as if nothing had changed.

[Private Baldrick]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

Looking like she's about to jump ship then

No great loss to the Tory party if Soubry goes. Hope she takes Grieve, Woolaston and Allen with her.

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, RidingPie said:

I thought we elected people not a party list? If we did you'd have an excellent point but constitutionally they certainly don't have to.

Interestingly I've always felt a change of PM should trigger a General Election regardless of which side does it.

For about the tenth time today I feel the need to point out our system is an antiquated mess. We pretend that people don't vote for leaders when we all know they do. 

[Maximus Decimus]

When I saw the 7 I was surprised to see Umunna, because he is such a big name. Who knows, if he'd not pulled out he might be the Labour party leader or even PM right now. 

The reality is that those 7 know that they've very likely given up their political careers. 

[ckn]

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

For about the tenth time today I feel the need to point out our system is an antiquated mess. We pretend that people don't vote for leaders when we all know they do. 

2017 saw that expressed at its worst as Theresa May's Conservatives. Yet no-one would bat an eyelid if she were replaced by another Tory.

The system is a proper mess but it won't change anytime soon.  Until it changes, what's good for one is good for another.

[RidingPie]

11 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

For about the tenth time today I feel the need to point out our system is an antiquated mess. We pretend that people don't vote for leaders when we all know they do. 

Oh I agree. I've said we need a new electoral system et al for many years

[Maximus Decimus]

Just now, RidingPie said:

Oh I agree. I've said we need a new electoral system et al for many years

I did a speech on it at a public speaking competition in sixth-form. 

The previous referendum made me realise that it'll never happen in my lifetime. The idea that people vote logically was also crushed then also.

[Graham]

10 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

When I saw the 7 I was surprised to see Umunna, because he is such a big name. Who knows, if he'd not pulled out he might be the Labour party leader or even PM right now. 

The reality is that those 7 know that they've very likely given up their political careers. 

He’s an enigma alright. He could have played the long game and hit the heights. 

Seems he’s made another error.

[Private Baldrick]

2 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

Oh I agree. I've said we need a new electoral system et al for many years

Absolutely! There are only about 100 'swing' seats that matter in this country. In my neck of the woods a lot of people's votes are worthless.

[RidingPie]

1 minute ago, Private Baldrick said:

Absolutely! There are only about 100 'swing' seats that matter in this country. In my neck of the woods a lot of people's votes are worthless.

I would hope a more proportional system might make us look at the candidates more as well, particularly with regards second choices (were we to go to a stv sort of system)

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, Graham said:

He’s an enigma alright. He could have played the long game and hit the heights. 

Seems he’s made another error.

I actually think he's a genuine person who's probably calculated that he'll end up with a career out of politics. 

[Private Baldrick]

2 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

I would hope a more proportional system might make us look at the candidates more as well, particularly with regards second choices (were we to go to a stv sort of system)

It would be interesting to see what proportional system could be made to work though. Using rough figures from 2015 was it something like 600K SNP votes earned 56 seats and 4 million UKIP and 1 million Green votes got them 1 MP each? Do you weigh the proportional element at a national or more local level?

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, RidingPie said:

I would hope a more proportional system might make us look at the candidates more as well, particularly with regards second choices (were we to go to a stv sort of system)

We would be able to much easier see what the public really want.

Nothing annoys me more than the whole manifesto pledge argument. For instance how often do we hear that 85% voted for parties that had Brexit in their manifesto as evidence that 85% want Brexit to happen? 

The reality is of course that for nearly everyone it is a binary choice and it is about picking who they prefer.

[Maximus Decimus]

Just now, Private Baldrick said:

It would be interesting to see what proportional system could be made to work though. Using rough figures from 2015 was it something like 600K SNP votes earned 56 seats and 4 million UKIP and 1 million Green votes got them 1 MP each? Do you weigh the proportional element at a national or more local level?

There are many systems. I don't think geography should be much of an issue, 1 million people should be more represented than 600,000. 

Plenty of countries manage multi-party systems pretty effectively. 

[Private Baldrick]

5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

There are many systems. I don't think geography should be much of an issue, 1 million people should be more represented than 600,000. 

Plenty of countries manage multi-party systems pretty effectively. 

Ooh I can hear Sturgeons response now if it is suggested that the elected Scottish representatives to Westminster are going to be reduced!

[Oxford]

[Graham]

13 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I actually think he's a genuine person who's probably calculated that he'll end up with a career out of politics. 

He may well be genuine. But his choice of timing and mixed bag of associates looks poor. He has jumped out of the plane without being sure of his parachute. Brave or foolhardy?

[Maximus Decimus]

7 minutes ago, Graham said:

He may well be genuine. But his choice of timing and mixed bag of associates looks poor. He has jumped out of the plane without being sure of his parachute. Brave or foolhardy?

He stepped down from the Labour leadership position when he was the favourite because he decided he didn't want it. 

Was this foolish or brave? In reality I suspect the employment prospects of ex high profile MPs are better than your average.