Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

[fighting irish]

To emulate them, they would first have to acknowledge that they are doing something good.

Not just good, but better than we are doing it.

Oooooooooh that's a big ask for the envious.

Good advice Lounge Room Lizard, just don't expect the boogers to listen. 

[Mister Ting]

I just hope they remind Derek Beaumont that it's Ottawa, otherwise Kayakman might find he has more than he can handle.

[DOGFATHER]

3 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball. What Sports dominate the Heavy Woolen area, Leigh and Halifax areas? How long have we has Rugby League in Toronto? A decade with mainly 3 or 4 amateur teams until the TWP came along. So no century long club or any real fan base.The game has been played professionaly and at amateur level for decades in London. London Broncos have had success and play in SL yet cant get even half the crowds of TWP

Leigh have had success and been in Super League as have Halifax. But the way them club have been run and marketed themselves over the years has been pathetic. That goes for much of the Game, except a couple of years at Keighley and then Bradford. And apart from one Promotion what success on the field have TWP had?

The game (Fans, Clubs, Administrators etc) in the UK keeps coming out with excuses and looking at shortcuts. Maybe the Game should look at how TWP entice 7,000 people to turn up watching a sport that is very much a minority one in the area. Instead of moaning and finding fault with TWP, it would be better to look at why they get 7000 crowds and good sponsorship. How they market themselves in an area dominated by big multi million Pound/Dollar Sports.

 

I think you might have the wrong end of the stick with my post LRL. I was merely pointing out that the population of a place the size of Toronto is a factor, when you are comparing it to towns with much smaller populations.

I am not decrying their achievements, all power to them and good on them. I think we could learn a great deal about the experience factor of game day. Sports fans in America and Canada seem a little different to those in the UK, in terms of the game being seen as part of the day out, rather than the be all and end all.

Maybe because UK fans have never had the opportunity to experience that sort of experience at any sport in the UK, excepting the NFL games played in the UK.

But we will see if the crowds are maintained once they start to lose games on a regular basis.That will be the acid test. Will 7000+ still be going if they are struggling near the bottom of the league for a few seasons? I hope they are, maybe it is different in Canada to here, and crowds are not as fickle.

[Onieda FC]

1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

But we will see if the crowds are maintained once they start to lose games on a regular basis.That will be the acid test. Will 7000+ still be going if they are struggling near the bottom of the league for a few seasons? I hope they are, maybe it is different in Canada to here, and crowds are not as fickle.

Don't worry about Toronto fans. This is Toronto fans filling the streets for a team who have not won anything since before mankind landed on the moon. 

Here's Toronto fans going crazy for the worst soccer team I have ever seen, the '07 TFC- and I've supported Newcastle United since 1995...I've seen some garbage. 

The Toronto Blue Jays are woeful and have been woeful for decades now, when you go to visit- everyone's wearing their hat. 

Toronto supports it's teams very well, win (which they don't normally) or lose (which is their normal state). 

[DOGFATHER]

1 minute ago, Onieda FC said:

Don't worry about Toronto fans. This is Toronto fans filling the streets for a team who have not won anything since before mankind landed on the moon. 

Here's Toronto fans going crazy for the worst soccer team I have ever seen, the '07 TFC- and I've supported Newcastle United since 1995...I've seen some garbage. 

The Toronto Blue Jays are woeful and have been woeful for decades now, when you go to visit- everyone's wearing their hat. 

Toronto supports it's teams very well, win (which they don't normally) or lose (which is their normal state). 

Can Batley move to Toronto please, with free travel for fans from the UK?

[Onieda FC]

1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

I am not decrying their achievements, all power to them and good on them. I think we could learn a great deal about the experience factor of game day. Sports fans in America seem a little different to those in the UK, in terms of the game being seen as part of the day out, rather than the be all and end all.

Just for some perspective, we have fans in America who hate the razzamatazz around the game (music, ancillary stuff) and just want to watch the game. We have fans who just come out for the event. It's not one or the other, it's a mixture. Our sports leagues figured out a long time ago that both can co-exist and be catered to, without losing the other. My father (aged 68) hates the fact they play music after touchdowns at Gillette Stadium (home of the Patriots- where we've had tickets since 1971). My cousin who sits with us (aged 35), sings along. Everyone's happy as long we win. 

[Mister Ting]

OK, you live in Mississauga. Which NHL team is your fave? Oh, I don't know......Ontario?

[DOGFATHER]

2 minutes ago, Onieda FC said:

Just for some perspective, we have fans in America who hate the razzamatazz around the game (music, ancillary stuff) and just want to watch the game. We have fans who just come out for the event. It's not one or the other, it's a mixture. Our sports leagues figured out a long time ago that both can co-exist and be catered to, without losing the other. My father (aged 68) hates the fact they play music after touchdowns at Gillette Stadium (home of the Patriots- where we've had tickets since 1971). My cousin who sits with us (aged 35), sings along. Everyone's happy as long we win. 

I was more referring to the large numbers of fans that seem to turn up during the game. I thought it might have been a one off when I came over with Batley last year. But having seen a few games this season on tv, it seems to happen most weeks, where the ground looks pretty empty at kickoff time, and then steadily fills up over the first 20 minutes of the game.

I realise you guys are pretty laid back, but that is taking the Mickey   

[Onieda FC]

Just now, DOGFATHER said:

I was more referring to the large numbers of fans that seem to turn up during the game. I thought it might have been a one off when I came over with Batley last year. But having seen a few games this season on tv, it seems to happen most weeks, where the ground looks pretty empty at kickoff time, and then steadily fills up over the first 20 minutes of the game.

I realise you guys are pretty laid back, but that is taking the Mickey   

I don't live in Toronto, so I can't give you a reason for that. TTC (the public transport system) can be fickle- to say the least- which might have something to do with it. 

As long as they come, who cares when they get there haha. 

[Onieda FC]

3 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

OK, you live in Mississauga. Which NHL team is your fave? Oh, I don't know......Ontario?

If you lived in Mississauga and you don't root for the Leafs I'd imagine life would be very hard for you. I know a Bruins fan who lives in Hamilton and his wife's family gives him hell for it. 

[Mister Ting]

11 minutes ago, Onieda FC said:

If you lived in Mississauga and you don't root for the Leafs I'd imagine life would be very hard for you. I know a Bruins fan who lives in Hamilton and his wife's family gives him hell for it. 

Well done for missing the point.

[Onieda FC]

11 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

Well done for missing the point.

I was trying to reinforce your point, I got you. I've been to power line city aka Mississauga haha. 

[Mister Ting]

1 minute ago, Onieda FC said:

I was trying to reinforce your point, I got you. I've been to power line city aka Mississauga haha. 

OK sorry, thanks. I have links to to Port Credit and Mimico.

[superten]

IF  Ottawa and New York do come straight into the Championship then I would look at totally revamping the whole Championship . This may sound harsh . But if we can do it for New York and Ottawa surely we must do it for other developing areas . Then create the northern premiership below the Championship . Take the championship back down to 12 teams for starters . Then select clubs history stadia and development area . So along with Ottawa and New York you could have wait for it (I know I am going to get lots of complaints about this but here goes .

1 Toulouse , 2 London Broncos , 3 Widnes Vikings , 4 Leigh , 5 Halifax ,  6 Featherstone  , 7 York , 8 London Skolars , 9 Bradford bulls 10 North Wales Crusaders ( Also if West Wales got its act together they might replace one of the Yorkshire clubs . I would rebrand them as South Wales Wanderers )        

[GUBRATS]

20 minutes ago, superten said:

IF  Ottawa and New York do come straight into the Championship then I would look at totally revamping the whole Championship . This may sound harsh . But if we can do it for New York and Ottawa surely we must do it for other developing areas . Then create the northern premiership below the Championship . Take the championship back down to 12 teams for starters . Then select clubs history stadia and development area . So along with Ottawa and New York you could have wait for it (I know I am going to get lots of complaints about this but here goes .

1 Toulouse , 2 London Broncos , 3 Widnes Vikings , 4 Leigh , 5 Halifax ,  6 Featherstone  , 7 York , 8 London Skolars , 9 Bradford bulls 10 North Wales Crusaders ( Also if West Wales got its act together they might replace one of the Yorkshire clubs . I would rebrand them as South Wales Wanderers )        

Really not happy with that 

[superten]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Really not happy with that 

LOL

[TIWIT]

6 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball.

You can remove Canadian football from that list. No one in Toronto cares about the Toronto Argonauts. The Toronto Argonauts don't care - 4-20 since winning the Grey Cup in 2017. Announced crowds of 15,000 - half of them come disguised as empty seats. TWP can easily become more relevant than the Argos in the next few years.

Football fans in Toronto follow the NFL.

 

[TIWIT]

7 hours ago, Onieda FC said:

The opportunity for RL (and indeed RU) here in North America is the overwhelming majority of people have never seen and are not familiar with "rugby" beyond "a game that's like football except no pads." There is plenty of room, with over 350 some odd million people in both nations, for both to carve out their own niches. It's not a zero sum game. I watch both, most fans here will because we watch multiple different sports- that's our culture. The one vs. the other thing doesn't exist here. 

I really don't get the Brits attitude towards other sports either. I can see how RL fans despise RU, but having no interest in other sports whatsoever? Watching all the different sports is the only reason I continue to pay for cable TV rather than cutting the cord.

[ojx]

26 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

On the topic of "people falling in love with the game" as is often declared on here, North Americans have a history of embracing and abandoning sports (see my post about the cosmos/soccer).

Enough with the Cosmos already. There are two professional soccer teams in New York, so they have hardly abandoned the sport.

[ojx]

34 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

 leasing tent spaces to local brewers who run beer festivals populated mainly by students from the nearby Uni.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Have you been to the beer garden? I have spent way too many hours in it for my own good, and they must be a lot of very mature University students. Please don't just make ###### up from your keyboard in New Zealand.

I do agree though, it is a 100% loss making venture completely reliant on a single individual. Not sure how it will develop, but you are probably right to ask some questions, if you stick to the facts. 

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Raumati Rugby said:

This is a Rugby forum and Toronto are a Rugby team. Discussing beer sales is pointless, especially as Toronto don't sell beer.

 

I’m equally perplexed as you as to how Toronto can make a profit given what must be enormous (and growing) outlay relative to income. No amount of beer tokens are going to cover the losses.....

[ojx]

24 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m equally perplexed as you as to how Toronto can make a profit given what must be enormous (and growing) outlay relative to income. No amount of beer tokens are going to cover the losses.....

Hey MoK, I'm doing my best, but so far I haven't been able to drink TWP to profitability.

[TIWIT]

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m equally perplexed as you as to how Toronto can make a profit given what must be enormous (and growing) outlay relative to income. No amount of beer tokens are going to cover the losses.....

TWP started out with a plan to make Super League in 5 years. I seriously doubt Argyle is looking to make any sort of profit until he's achieved that, and been there for a few years to get a decent TV deal.

Until then, don't worry about it. It's not your money.

[nadera78]

8 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

This is a Rugby forum and Toronto are a Rugby team. Discussing beer sales is pointless, especially as Toronto don't sell beer.

They offer pitches to local breweries (do we even know if these pitches are paid for or free?) and these beer festivals are promoted heavily across the nearby university campus. It's like "rag week" when there's a home game, with Uni students attending in huge numbers with many of these students leaving Toronto after their 3 or 4 year courses and returning to their home cities. 

Again, I really don't want to come across as negative, but the Wolfpack seem to be being built on little if any foundations other than a rich blokes money
 

Really? 

[fighting irish]

9 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

How exactly have Toronto raised the Profile of the game world-wide? Genuine question. How many sports bars in Toronto show their games?

How has a wealthy Mining magnet got a better idea of what it takes to establish an alien sport? He made money digging stuff up and flogging it to the Chinese. That's not proof of any ability to do anything other than throw money at it and cross your fingers.

He and his team are currently buying success (failed last year BTW), giving away free tickets, spending heaps on advertising, paying to have their games broadcast and leasing tent spaces to local brewers who run beer festivals populated mainly by students from the nearby Uni.

They are doing the above better than anyone in the UK, but to be realistic, they are a 100% loss making entity. I for one would not suggest that being a loss making entity is a good thing, but if they stop giving tickets away, they run the risk of the ground being 2/3rd empty. If they stop the Beer Tents, even worse. At some stage they will need to cease with the freebies.

There is little envy from my quarter. I am very much pro expansion, but have witnessed what happens when clubs are built on little if any foundations. wealthy backers are great, but I shudder to think what would happen to the Wolfpack should Mr Argyle either die or change his mind.

The Game of RL is not "collapsing" in the UK heartlands. Yes, there are things that could and should be done better and I am quite sure that many mistakes have been made, but if you think Toronto are the answer, then you fail to understand the question.

As for "establishing the game in Canada", they are without doubt a well oiled marketing machine, but without local rivalries (at least 5 more clubs) they are swimming up-stream, so let's all pray that Mr Argyle looks both ways when crossing the road and keeps an eye on his Blood Pressure/Cholesterol. 

On the topic of "people falling in love with the game" as is often declared on here, North Americans have a history of embracing and abandoning sports (see my post about the cosmos/soccer). 1 mans obsession and money are great, but they are not going to make people love the game in a hurry.

I recently asked a question about the reserve league and travel. I've yet to hear a realistic solution. Do they base themselves 100% in Toronto, resulting in SL clubs forking out additional funds to get their 2nd string there, or do they base themselves 100% in Manchester, making the "Toronto" part of their name a farce. 
If the reserve team rule is 100% compulsory, then Mr Argyle's going to have to up his spending. His sponsors (deal ends this year IIRC) will need to either double their spends if they are to remain a "Toronto" based side and where will he recruit from?
I've said before the NSW/QLND cup sides will be where he searches and the NRL won't be keen on that.

 

Again, re-reading what I've just written, it comes across as Negative which is not what I intended. I am a pragmatic realist and for the life of me, I can't see anything else other than it all ending in tears unless the Ottawa and NYC teams manage to deliver the same sort of gates and have seriously wealthy backers with long term goals and buckets of patience. 

Yada yada yada