Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

This is perhaps unintentionally revealing about the entitled, and ultimately lazy, nature of some in British rugby league. 

As a sport, we angrily demand our place at the top table of British sports, bleat on about the unfair barriers we face and how sponsors and broadcasters short change us. 

And yet, when it's suggested that in pursuit of this we do some of the things that LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR SPORT has - like internationalise our player base, or get on a plane one in a while - suddenly it's all too much to ask. Too much of a faff. 

We can't have it both ways. We can either make the effort to be a modern 21st century sport on the same level as our peers and - potentially - reap some of the same benefits. 

Or we can not make the effort. The latter is fine if that's what the sport chooses, but rugby league doesn't have a god given right to exist if it can't be bothered to engage with the world it exists in. 

Whilst I agree with the principle of what you are saying mate, I don't think the comparison is great.

We often do things that other major UK sports just aren't doing and won't do - we are generally braver than them, and if we don't do it, then some fans kick us and brand us as backward.

RU in England haven't ever just added a brand new team into it's top division or gone down the route of licensing.

In the rest of the UK they have created a franchised league across multiple countries, but then we have had French and Welsh teams in SL too.

Football would never go down some of these routes we are looking at, and their fans also wouldn't accept it. 

I am 100% on board with expansion, I'd rather we invest more and try more, but let's not make out that it things like admitting a Canadian team to what is essentially a UK league is a perfectly normal thing to do. It may be an exciting opportunity that has presented itself, but tbh, if we were creating our own plan for expansion, it would probably have been lucky to make the top 100 ideas. 

This isn't the no-brainer that it is painted as. But it is an opportunity that has presented itself, and imho we would be stupid to not pursue it, particularly if the risk can be offset.

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

Toronto fans don't care where the players come from.  Canada is a multi cultural country built on immigration.  There no Canadians on the blue jays or raptors and they're doing great.  

You play for Toronto you become a Torontonian (once you learn not to pronounce the second t)

Do the player's of the Blue Jays or Raptors domicile themselves in Toronto or like the RL lads sleep in their own beds at home in the UK - even if they are Antipodean - for 9 months of the year, how can they be classed as Torontonians?

If they join SL even that could time could drop depending on how SL employ their fixture list, I honestly don't see them being allowed the same format they have had used previously.

 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Those sports are braver, more regularly and in other ways.

The premier league spent literally hundreds of millions creating premier league productions when the value of overseas tv rights was tiny, they created and packaged products all around the world when there wasnt really a market and created that market. They have had world cups, euros, european club competitions for decades. You will have Manchester united going to Lithuania, Romania, Azerbaijan, you have England qualifying against San Marino or Malta.

To created and invested in 7s for decades, they have moved regional licences in most Elite competitions, they have international club matches, they have admitted south African sides to the european pro14. 

Cricket has invented multiple new formats to spread the game, including the hundred next year 

RL underinvesting and chopping and changing around the edges isnt brave

SO let's have a conversation about setting up our own broadcasting company. 

RL has grown its World Cup and international footprint massively in the last couple of decades, on a shoestring budget.

The South African teams in the Pro 14 brought their own players, sponsors and TV deal.

I'm not sure any of those things a re good examples in the slightest. 

[Smudger06]

46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What lawsuits, did the RFL not lose all rights to SL matters when the split came on who controls who and SL set up their own controlling body in 2018.

Harry, the RFL did not loose all rights, they have the final say (A veto) in several key areas. Critically around membership & Criteria for membership of SLE + They must sign off any changes to the articles of the Company. Also, the RFL Chairs the SL board (one SL director per club) but can only vote to break ties. 

[Manx RL]

Are TWP full members of the RFL?

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Your other points are so laughable they are not worthy of commenting on, but if you think David Argyle and his partners entered the RFL structure (which included Super League at the time) without everything being put down on paper specifying each side's obligations and responsibilities and agreed to by the lawyers representing each side before both sides signed on you are NUTS. No one goes into a multi-million pound business deal like this on just a handshake and some vague promises.

If that is true TIWIT and I am not even contemplating that it isn't and TWP have a cast iron case for SL entry, why on earth would these questions and comments from the professional buisness men that head the SL clubs even be mentioned or raised especially in public, and in Elstone whatever our opinion his of him you would have thought with his background he would have read ALL THE SIGNED DOCUMENTATION you are adamant that exists, and advised his employers to accept Toronto's entry to the SL.

Whatever the SL do once TWP have gained and been accepted is entirely up to them as long as TWP comply without exception to all of the mandatory rules the incumbant SL members are told to comply with, e.g. running a reserve team, playing fixtures as per the published format however that falls etc, what I am saying is as long as the SL do not make extraordinary demands of TWP over any other SL club they are within there rights to do so.

So unless your Signed Documentation was prophetic enough to list any circumstances and got them agreed that would make life uncomfortable for Toronto in carrying out their League Obligations as all the other members would have to adhere to I wonder how any problems for SL or the RFL if they are to be drawn into it would accur.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, frank said:

That was the point I was getting at.Why all the criticism from certain posters about Toronto not doing that, when the majority of clubs aren't.

Hi Frank, what is it the majority of other clubs aren't doing, if you mention Salford as having no academy or even Reserves they are duty bound to comply with it next season and will comply with the directive, or will be thrown out of the League - I think, or at the least be docked enough points that relegation was unavoidable, shoukd tgat tgen not apply to all clubs?

[RP London]

21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you not read all the post I made, I have substantiated with reasoning in why i believe it will fail in time, the club needs to do something to have the game as part of the infrastructure of the city, not just another attraction like going out for a meal, visiting tge cinema or getting drunk at the beer tents. 

lets be fair on this.. I dont think anyone is really disagreeing that it needs to become more to the city... however, this will not happen in the timeframe that some on here (perhaps yourself included) would expect. Culture takes time to form but culture moves like an organism in terms of evolution and adaptation. 

The culture of "going out for a meal", "having a takeaway", "going to the cinema", "going to the pub" has all changed and evolved over time (pubs being a good example of how the culture has changed and therefore the pub itself is having to adapt or die). How often people do it, how often they can afford to, what is on offer etc.. 

Sport is the same. A sport can become embedded in a city and it can also become dissociated with a city over time too, replaced by another sport or just sport disappearing. 

Give it time and it can become part of the culture but this is not going to happen in 3 years playing against teams that hardly inspire excitement to people from another country. 

with regards players as well, north america as I understand, for most sports you dont really get to "play for your hometown club" like you do over here because of the draft system. A good Canadian coming out of college and into the draft does not necessarily get a choice to go to the Raptors or the Blue Jays but he could end up at any of the NBA or MLB team.. therefore it is not uncommon to have a team made up of people from everywhere.. it may not sit well with us but it is fine with them.. so why should we be telling them that it isnt.. if they dont care then let them not care.. 

over time and with work we can embed into the culture of Toronto, we can then develop through "little leagues" (i know that is american hence quotation marks) canadian players at different levels and it can grow overtime.. but if we dont give it time and help it a bit (by allowing them the same right as any other team) then we will have killed it ourselves like we have done so many attempts to expand in the past. 

you are 100% right about embedding in the culture, but just give it time to embed rather than expecting it in such a short timeframe that it is impossible. 

It may not work, it may never work, it wont always work.. but you cannot judge in 3 years, expansion to new areas will always take longer.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Whilst I agree with the principle of what you are saying mate, I don't think the comparison is great.

We often do things that other major UK sports just aren't doing and won't do - we are generally braver than them, and if we don't do it, then some fans kick us and brand us as backward.

RU in England haven't ever just added a brand new team into it's top division or gone down the route of licensing.

In the rest of the UK they have created a franchised league across multiple countries, but then we have had French and Welsh teams in SL too.

Football would never go down some of these routes we are looking at, and their fans also wouldn't accept it. 

I am 100% on board with expansion, I'd rather we invest more and try more, but let's not make out that it things like admitting a Canadian team to what is essentially a UK league is a perfectly normal thing to do. It may be an exciting opportunity that has presented itself, but tbh, if we were creating our own plan for expansion, it would probably have been lucky to make the top 100 ideas. 

This isn't the no-brainer that it is painted as. But it is an opportunity that has presented itself, and imho we would be stupid to not pursue it, particularly if the risk can be offset.

And there is the crux of the whole debate, some want to jump straight into the bathwater without first testing the temperature, others are wary that they may get scalded and I should think that also applies to some of the games bosses.

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Harry, the RFL did not loose all rights, they have the final say (A veto) in several key areas. Critically around membership & Criteria for membership of SLE + They must sign off any changes to the articles of the Company. Also, the RFL Chairs the SL board (one SL director per club) but can only vote to break ties. 

Yeah, I am aware that Brian Barwick has a casting vote in the event of tie.

[RayCee]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And there is the crux of the whole debate, some want to jump straight into the bathwater without first testing the temperature, others are wary that they may get scalded and I should think that also applies to some of the games bosses.

I think it comes down to “Are my interests served well”? That's irrespective of whether it’s for the good of game overall. SL clubs are going to think first of their own benefit, then maybe what is for the greater good. If it isn’t in their interests as they perceive it, they would shut the door on a fantastic opportunity to grow the game.

It’s why having too much power with the SL clubs isn’t an ideal situation. Their vested interest is their club, not the game as a whole.

[Tommygilf]

9 hours ago, The Parksider said:

P.s. Tommy, if you have a problem then have the manners to debate it, rather than post stuff about me to third parties. Grow up man. 

I have repeatedly debated you and like most others found the exercise utterly pointless.

You just told DaveT to "read up more to avoid getting things wrong all the time". I think that is a silly comment considering Dave's posting history on here. 

You call Toronto a 'phoney club', despite the proven fact they have supporters, sponsors, an emerging club culture and are spreading the gospel of RL to far more new people than most in SL ever have. I think calling a club people support as 'phoney' is once again opinion dressed as facts. Ironically you then go on to call them wholly Australian owned - something which is not the case - and call that a fact too!

As for lawsuits, as has been pointed out this is a complicated case between the RFL and SL. TWP signed up whilst the latter was subservient to the former. No doubt with certain guarantees and commitments made. Perhaps we're seeing yet another example of the old adage "the professional game, ran by amateurs".

As for the hype, it might have disappeared for you and some other people, but I doubt it was ever there in the first place. There's plenty of us who can't wait to use a Toronto away trip as an excuse to go on holiday and the facts remain that Toronto games in the UK continue to draw some of the largest crowds for clubs - despite yet another proven myth of "no away fans".

I would also think Toronto would learn from the Catalans experience, and by bringing in a coach like Brian Mac they certainly appear to be showing it. 

I do have a sense of pity for you. If Toronto folded tomorrow I think you'd be sad, you'd have nothing to pontificate about. Nevertheless I'm sure you'd find another aspect to sadistically dance with glee at the games slow decline.

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, RayCee said:

I think it comes down to “Are my interests served well”? That's irrespective of whether it’s for the good of game overall. SL clubs are going to think first of their own benefit, then maybe what is for the greater good. If it isn’t in their interests as they perceive it, they would shut the door on a fantastic opportunity to grow the game.

It’s why having too much power with the SL clubs isn’t an ideal situation. Their vested interest is their club, not the game as a whole.

Now lets put this into perpective, if you were that person who was a lifelong fan of a club (most owners have an established personal connection), made good and invested a lot of time and money into it, where woukd your loyalties lie, with your own club or not, "All for the good of the game" comes a long way second, some people may think that to be sad, but it is part of the self preservation society we belong to where without question blood is thicker than water. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Now lets put this into perpective, if you were that person who was a lifelong fan of a club (most owners have an established personal connection), made good and invested a lot of time and money into it, where woukd your loyalties lie, with your own club or not, "All for the good of the game" comes a long way second, some people may think that to be sad, but it is part of the self preservation society we belong to where without question blood is thicker than water. 

I think what you show there Harry is a major problem the game has. Our clubs and our sport is too reliant on fairly rich people from the same town as the club putting money in. The question then is - what if that process dries up? There is no plan B it would seem. What we need is a healthy level of interest from outside of RL towns and cities so that potential investment can come from there. IMO a club like Toronto helps break the cultural mould and stigma that surrounds RL in this country. 

[TboneFromTO]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do the player's of the Blue Jays or Raptors domicile themselves in Toronto or like the RL lads sleep in their own beds at home in the UK - even if they are Antipodean - for 9 months of the year, how can they be classed as Torontonians?

If they join SL even that could time could drop depending on how SL employ their fixture list, I honestly don't see them being allowed the same format they have had used previously.

 

I don't like the current set up.  I don't like the amount of time they train in the UK, but I get why they do it.  If SL want to see a plan outlining how they can start to train more in Toronto and have more presence in the city I think that would be reasonable!

They are doing it to minimise cost and travel.  RL salaries don't quite line up with the costs of living in Toronto making it difficult for players to purchase property there.  They train in MCR a lot for the British players.  Which I fully understand is a concern.  I do think (and hope) that with time that will change.  I don't think it's a concession that should worry other clubs.  

Athletes in other pro sports make enough to rent/live in Toronto while maintaining lifestyle in the off season where they wish. Some NBA players live in (very nice) hotels while in Toronto, and maintain their homes in America for example

I personally feel that Toronto have a lot of value added potential to SL.  I don't buy into the saviour of the league syndrome, but believe they present an opportunity to expand income across the league.  

With reports like these (no SL despite promotion) I can understand why even marquee players would be hesitant to go all in and move there.  As I have said I hope and think that will change as they get established in the sport.

I hear the concerns, but believe SL should let them have a crack at it.  If they end up folding because the city don't end up buying in that's fair, but doesn't appear to be the case at this point in time.  If they end up folding because the league fight them too much, well that's another case altogether.  

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

I don't like the current set up.  I don't like the amount of time they train in the UK, but I get why they do it.  If SL want to see a plan outlining how they can start to train more in Toronto and have more presence in the city I think that would be reasonable!

They are doing it to minimise cost and travel.  RL salaries don't quite line up with the costs of living in Toronto making it difficult for players to purchase property there.  They train in MCR a lot for the British players.  Which I fully understand is a concern.  I do think (and hope) that with time that will change.  I don't think it's a concession that should worry other clubs.  

Athletes in other pro sports make enough to rent/live in Toronto while maintaining lifestyle in the off season where they wish. Some NBA players live in (very nice) hotels while in Toronto, and maintain their homes in America for example

I personally feel that Toronto have a lot of value added potential to SL.  I don't buy into the saviour of the league syndrome, but believe they present an opportunity to expand income across the league.  

With reports like these (no SL despite promotion) I can understand why even marquee players would be hesitant to go all in and move there.  As I have said I hope and think that will change as they get established in the sport.

I hear the concerns, but believe SL should let them have a crack at it.  If they end up folding because the city don't end up buying in that's fair, but doesn't appear to be the case at this point in time.  If they end up folding because the league fight them too much, well that's another case altogether.  

I find it hard to disagree with much you say mate, in this post and many others. It would be nice to see some pragmatism from one or two others, but generally the TWP lot are a good bunch here and recognise and accept that there are some issues and things that are work in progress and need to change. But tbh it is all about priorities. The reality is the serious investment and growth is only going to happen in SL, where the income streams are bigger. Getting 25-30 players to move to Toronto to play in the lower division and the costs associated are perhaps unnecessary yet, considering that the majority of their games are played in the North of England. But that should change, but is it really high priority? Nah.

I think your last para is spot on, I'm not sure what we have to lose (providing the asks are met).

Unfortunately we have ended up debating on the extremes again - camp A - they are useless, offer nowt and shouldn't be near our game, and camp B - they are the saviours and if we don't get 100% our own way we will sue you all and take over the game ourselves. Neither of those camps are endearing, and as is always the way, the best discussions will be had in the middle ground, leaving the extremists to shout at each other.

[Harry Stottle]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think what you show there Harry is a major problem the game has. Our clubs and our sport is too reliant on fairly rich people from the same town as the club putting money in. The question then is - what if that process dries up? There is no plan B it would seem. What we need is a healthy level of interest from outside of RL towns and cities so that potential investment can come from there. IMO a club like Toronto helps break the cultural mould and stigma that surrounds RL in this country. 

David Arglye, is he not one of those rugby leaague fanatics Tommy, granted he is far away from his roots, but it his love of the game that has prompted him to invest/give money, in that manner TWP are no different than Wigan with Leneghan, Saints with McManus, Wire with Moran, etc the same theme runs through the clubs, even Toronto, if they go what next?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

RL does things on a shoestring budget and often halfassed and then calls it brave an innovative but it really isnt. The media deals of football, not just in terms of size but in terms of innovation are far braver than ours.

We have seen RU commit to massive change and invest in it, cricking has invented new formats, new world cups and is next year inventing new sides to play in new formats 

Rugby league really isnt innovative or brave, it's doing things other sports did decades ago, isnt investing in them as they are and wondering why it doeant get the results

This is really disappointing because the game should be the most agile, the most innovative and open game that exists. It is small enough to be nimble and big enough to make an impact but it very rarely does because it still cant react or make decisions quickly, decisively and commit to them.

Rugby league has never, even as a relative measure, committed to anything in the way the premier league committed to PLP or RU committed to 7s and the European cup, or cricket to T20 or the hundred.

It is all relative though. Let's try and compare like for like where possible.

The Premier League have billions of pounds to invest and have rights being sought from all corners of the world. It is hardly brave them investing i producing these rights themselves (with partners) and making more from it. The costs are modest for the size of the market they have. Similarly with the UK RU Prem, they have more RL markets to sell into and can therefore financially justify investing in getting games covered. Pro14 haven't taken this approach - suely if it was a no-brainer they would have done the same. They have a more traditional deal, although it is for every game, and they again have multiple markets.

The new formats thing may be a necessaity in Cricket - reducing games from all day (or multiple) to 3 hours. Let's be honest here, us doing the opposite and providing all day 9's events instead of 2hr events is an odd one, although I'm a fan of 9's and what it can offer. And we have 9's, have had it before, and will have it again.

I agree with your overall principle that we do things poorly, but most of this comes down to funds.

For everything brave you can claim they have done it would be easy to highlight a conservative choice they made (39th Prem League game). Creating new teams to play in your top comp, or admitting one from the other side of the world is pretty unprecedented in major UK sport and is pretty brave.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

David Arglye, is he not one of those rugby leaague fanatics Tommy, granted he is far away from his roots, but it his love of the game that has prompted him to invest/give money, in that manner TWP are no different than Wigan with Leneghan, Saints with McManus, Wire with Moran, etc the same theme runs through the clubs, even Toronto, if they go what next?

I have to admit I was under the impression that Argyle was from Western Australia given the mining background but happy to be wrong. I think an even better example could be Eric Perez for someone who invested in and convinced others to invest in RL when they weren't necessarily going to either.

My point is that Toronto help us break the mould of what we have been categorised and stereotyped as. They can help change the image of RL which, for better or worse, suffers alongside the towns it is played in. We need more people outside the hotspots of RL to grow interested in the game and for some of those to be willing to see the benefits of investing in it. 

[Bramstein]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

cricking has invented new formats, new world cups and is next year inventing new sides to play in new formats 

It's an interesting to cite this as an example of the way other sports are doing things better. Outside of a select few at the ECB it's hard to find anyone in the game who thinks the hundred constitutes a good idea.

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

RL does things on a shoestring budget and often halfassed and then calls it brave an innovative but it really isnt. The media deals of football, not just in terms of size but in terms of innovation are far braver than ours.

We have seen RU commit to massive change and invest in it, cricking has invented new formats, new world cups and is next year inventing new sides to play in new formats 

Rugby league really isnt innovative or brave, it's doing things other sports did decades ago, isnt investing in them as they are and wondering why it doeant get the results

This is really disappointing because the game should be the most agile, the most innovative and open game that exists. It is small enough to be nimble and big enough to make an impact but it very rarely does because it still cant react or make decisions quickly, decisively and commit to them.

Rugby league has never, even as a relative measure, committed to anything in the way the premier league committed to PLP or RU committed to 7s and the European cup, or cricket to T20 or the hundred.

I do agree with this.

Even when we have been innovative with things like the video referee and the big screen we are still in the same place 20 odd years later and are still in the situation with it only being in use at televised games. RU copied the idea, started the same way then quickly pushed it forward and did this at every game. I'd even say things like Magic weekend aren't particularly innovative and more a sign that the sport is too scared to put on double headers at big stadia like RU does. Magic even stopped being used as an expansion tool and retracted to the heartlands, not exactly innovative or creative. The game should have capitalised on Catalans in Super League with another French team a decade ago and we are still waiting. The situation with Toronto has become a farce. Any time the game does something good on the expansion front it hesitates and 'consolidates'. 

Like you say it should be easy for the game to be innovative and agile but its far from it.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, RayCee said:

Wake up Harry, wake up. You've been dreaming. 

No RayCee I have been watching and observing, and your opinion is based on?

[Marty Funkhouser]

20 hours ago, Loup said:

 

Blue Jays (b 1977) and Raptors (b 1995) are the only Canadian-based teams in the respective top-tier US sports leagues. Neither club goes back to the dawn of time, yet their presence has led to a huge rise in standard of Canadian-born players across the board. Correct, there are no Canadian-born players in the Raptors and possibly one relief pitcher currently on the Jays. But today there are Canadian lads playing for other teams in the NBA and MLB as a direct result of the top-down growth in the sport. Put another way, the sports became part of the culture of the area as the result of the clubs existing.

The clubs don't recruit Canadian-born players to use them as a badge - they recruit the players they want on the team. The Raptors team that won the NBA Championship this year includes players from all over the map.

I have much to learn about rugby league, but I truly don't understand the zero-sum game attitude to "not enough players" and "good English lads dressed up in Canadian jerseys". More teams = bigger rosters, especially if the wages are increasing to full-time levels = more lads getting the chance to play = more kids staying interested through school and clubs. If there were more opportunity to play full-time, wouldn't more of the part-time players be able to step up?

And when did Harry Stottle turn into Parky's wingman?

No doubt about your examples and the Raptors have had an outstanding achievement.  However what is overlooked and is constantly overlooked when people talk about establishing Rugby League somewhere and playing numbers etc etc is the simple fact that RL is a difficult game to play. One of the most difficult in fact. The fitness and strength levels , the toughness and relative lack of protection do not make it an easy sell amongst the myriad of things young people can choose to do nowadays. I dare say it is much more diffcult a sell and to take up and play than Baseball or Basketball (height allowing of course). Rugby League is probably more akin to Boxing or the like than those two sports.

Probably a much better comparison for your purpose would be NFL. You can please correct me if i am wrong but i read there are around just a dozen players in the NFL from Canada (out of 1700 NFL players). This after 140 years of the very similar Canadian Football. The situation i have no doubt, would be pretty much the same in Rugby League. Canada are not just going to unearth SL or NRL class players overnight. If the project continues more than 5 or 10 years and Wolfpack retain SL status , it is likely that there still will be no Canadian players of standard. This means that continuously for the near to mid-far future the players will have to come from SL or NRL. There is no other option available.

The SL pool is depleting by the year, mainly for the aforementioned reasons. Young people have so many other things to do and we have made the game too difficult (boring i have also heard numerous times at youth level) and inaccesible to many. The NRL , whilst in nowhere near the same spot, is now relying on the seemingly neverending pot of fantasically suited (to the game as played) South Sea Islander lineage players to keep the numbers and quality at their very high (highest) level.  In the UK we have the common situation of players playing on way into their late 30's, much much more than has ever been, as the replacements are more difficult to find and nuture. Within a few years the consequences of that may be seen in some of the players who have played too long , hopefully not, but it is the nature of the sport. It can easily be argued that the quality of SL has perhaps passed its peak. The best players now routinely find their way to the NRL and the playing and club numbers at youth and amateur have fallen dramatically and show little sign of reversing. We fight a continuous unfair fight against Rugby Union and no longer obtain many of our best players from that source. In short Rugby League in the UK is in danger of becoming an even more niche sport.

So, you will find , that it isn't simply a case of "more teams equals more players". More kids might be intially interested but will find the drop out rate will be very high and it will take some time indeed for any fruit to bear. It really can be a quantum leap from "part-time players" to a full time professionals. Thousands in the UK and Australia fail to do it, i don't see Canada as some kind of special place where normality does not apply.

The thing is, the Rugby League world really, desperately, needs more sources of players and Canada could possibly be one in the long term if they are seriously in it for the long term from the ground upwards. However in the short to mid, mid-far term any new team in "virgin" territory is going to be a drain on a depleting resource. Someone , somewhere has to lose out.

[Big Picture]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Harry here Loup, I ain't Mr Parksiders Flight Lieutenant, you have not been reading me long enough if you believe that to be the case.

Please be honest I will accept your reply as such, before these two local Toronto teams came into existence was Basketball and Baseball popular in your part of the World, did it have regular TV coverage, was the population au fair with both sports, and were the games played by schools, colleges, amatuer clubs etc, the reason that I ask is that this comparison with other Toronto professional sports and Rugby League keeps getting mentioned I am just wondering if at the birth of these professional sporting clubs, the conditions were the same?.

I can answer your question.  Baseball has been here for generations, the Intercounty Baseball League is a non-pro senior league (i.e. one with no upper age limit for players) in southwestern Ontario founded 100 years ago in 1919.  The sport got some coverage in the Canadian media before the Montréal Expos and Toronto Blue Jays were admitted by Major League Baseball, but obviously a lot more since then.

Basketball was also on the scene back then, it was part of the school phys. ed. curriculum and our high school had a basketball team.  I'm not sure but I think the universities and (in Ontario at least) community colleges also had varsity basketball teams then too.  Despite that, here in Ontario basketball didn't get much media coverage to speak of in those days and wasn't shown on Canadian TV that I can remember.  So we knew what basketball was, but that was about it.  All the growth in Canadian basketball since then is the result of the Raptors joining the NBA and succeeding.

[Dave T]

35 minutes ago, Bramstein said:

It's an interesting to cite this as an example of the way other sports are doing things better. Outside of a select few at the ECB it's hard to find anyone in the game who thinks the hundred constitutes a good idea.

And despite the positivity on these shores about the World Cup, they have reduced the numbers in their tournament and have had some tough times in this area.