Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Big Picture]

26 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Lacking fact, but fair enough..

As you can see here, Bein was paying 70,000 € for the rights and negotiations with Elstone broke down and they withdrew as a result.

[ojx]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

As you can see here, Bein was paying 70,000 € for the rights and negotiations with Elstone broke down and they withdrew as a result.

€70,000 is essentially nothing. How come Catalans get a free ride compared to Toronto, when they don't bring revenue to SL? 

[Big Picture]

32 minutes ago, ojx said:

€70,000 is essentially nothing. How come Catalans get a free ride compared to Toronto, when they don't bring revenue to SL? 

It is essentially nothing, but remember that it is for one team in France playing in a league with teams from (with maybe a couple of exceptions) small towns in the north of England with the French public won't know or rate in a sport which they either don't know or don't rate.  I can't really see that fetching big money, can you?

[ojx]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

It is essentially nothing, but remember that it is for one team in France playing in a league with teams from (with maybe a couple of exceptions) small towns in the north of England with the French public won't know or rate in a sport which they either don't know or don't rate.  I can't really see that fetching big money, can you?

€70,000 for a share of the TV money. What a deal the Catalans have.

[The Parksider]

On 20/09/2019 at 02:40, mrfranco said:

I'm all for Toulouse entering SL.

And Toronto. And London. There was a natural opportunity this season to say "the two sides making the Championship GF will go up, and the bottom SL side should stay. We'll have a 14 team competition and get rid of the loop fixtures." you let Toulouse off the hook because there's "a chance of a TV deal" (your words).

Thank heavens someone is for Toulouse.

But you want to let Toronto off the hook with the idea of a 14 club Superleague. Did you know Toulouse were working hard to build the club and the local game way back in 2003, but Les Catalans beat them to a 2006 entry to Superleague. TO didn't give up and have worked hard ever since to build up to SL entry. They famously got to the challenge cup semis in 2005, and have had two stints in the Championships trying to build their club up.   They hosted the SL bosses at a big dinner when they discussed with them joining Superleague one day and the agreement was if they could develop the players and find a paying TV deal SL would let them in. They finally got there with player development and a small TV deal appeared from Bein for France Elstone wanted to improve on just recently, whilst SL bosses went public with their stated preference to go forward with a second French club.

You ignore completely Mr. Perez's assertion no TV deal will ever surface in North America without up to 6 North American clubs in Superleague providing top class RL content at big NA cities.  SKY need at least 9 English clubs to satisfy the audience here, North America want those six clubs to satisfy the audience there and France must have at least another club And that makes for a Superleague of 17 clubs required in Superleague at least to provide the content to satisfy the three TV markets. Not 14.

Perez himself says there is no point to the North American dream with just one or two clubs, yet you think Toronto alone in Superleague will stimulate the North American sports market to throw $Millions at Rugby League. Come the next reduced SKY deal in a couple of years we may be going to 10 clubs. We could manage 12 if France can get the deal Elstone is chasing.

But one thing is for sure because Perez was clear on this, his aim was never TWP in Superleague as a token NA club. His aim was a Transatlantic league. That was how the game would actually work under his plan. People like you, are oblivious to this and would be happy with TWP coming is as they are, a phoney NA club based in Manchester who fly out to Toronto to pretend Rugby League has cracked the American sports market. It's laughable......

18 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

They should be allowed in, if they win the Grand Final, for the simple fact that the competition as it stands awards promotion to that team. There has not been any caveats regards other matters for some time 

Any development of players is surely a win/win, the game desperately needs more sources of players and Toronto will need homegrown players if they are to have any longevity .

The 10 years is obviously a minimum and is the glaring issue in starting in virgin territory, it might be 20 or 25 , that is down to Toronto and Mr Argyle. It will quickly become clear however whether he is really in it for the long term and has any interest in establishing some proper foundations.

I suspect it won't last and I personally think New York is a zero chance. Ottawa is another puzzle and must be a very slim chance 

Mate, I love your posts but you've gone up a massive dead end here under pressure. The "simple fact" is there is no purpose to just one NA club in Superleague, they need six to stimulate the games growth there in terms of TV revenue, and ultimately six cities developing NA talent (not one) but what you miss here is not only is there no infrastructure for this you don't think any of this will last anyway.

And my goodness, to find the NA players by your own admission it would need six NA clubs operating for 20 - 25 years whilst enough NA players come through their currently non-existent junior system!!. That's six phoney clubs based in Manchester who will have signed 180 players we don't have available for them, from here, with three a week flying off to Canada - can you or anyone else not see how absurd that is 

Ever since SL started there was a rule on minimum standards and TWP cannot find a single NA SL quality player nor a single TV dollar. The competition "as it stands" awards promotion to the winners subject to the winners being up to contributing to Superleague - see Hunslet and Dewsbury for that

17 hours ago, Loup said:

TWP in Super League will increase the chances for more media coverage, more fans, more interest on both sides of the pond, more sponsorship, and more opportunities for RL to start involving kids in schools and clubs. We already have some kids' clubs starting up (which of course Parky scoffed at)

Mate, if Toronto go up you want to shake my hand and buy me a pint. If they go up then all the very very best to you and all the foul mouthed keyboard warriors who have spent three years insulting me. I'll buy you a pint!

But don''t insult my intelligence. It wasn't me that said those pictures of TWP players with a couple of tots throwing a ball around were staged to give an impression of Supereague player development, but I will say all those other things you list aren't any justification for TWP, because not even Perez said these things. He said welcoming TWP would lead to big TV deals and Player development - DOWN THE LINE - as RL in North America grew.

If your in your in and I'm fine with that, do enjoy the ride. But let's not paint this (now looking likely) success for Argyles SL ambition any sort of success for RL in North America. One English club, based in Manchester, flying out there every other week, funded by an Aussie $Billionaire making massive losses, just isn't north american expansion.

Cheers

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, ojx said:

€70,000 is essentially nothing. How come Catalans get a free ride compared to Toronto, when they don't bring revenue to SL? 

One of the big differences is that the RFL and SLE actively sought French expansion and is a more natural fit geographically.

My personal view is that the Catalans experience is maybe making it a touch more difficult four TWP, unfairly. As we have seen, trying to monetise Catalans centrally has been difficult (SLE has failed) as we have no payment for broadcasting rights and no French investment. A little like how we never really capitalised on London, or when we have gone to new areas with Magic.

I think this makes people cynical about making money from the N.A market.

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

One of the big differences is that the RFL and SLE actively sought French expansion and is a more natural fit geographically.

My personal view is that the Catalans experience is maybe making it a touch more difficult four TWP, unfairly. As we have seen, trying to monetise Catalans centrally has been difficult (SLE has failed) as we have no payment for broadcasting rights and no French investment. A little like how we never really capitalised on London, or when we have gone to new areas with Magic.

I think this makes people cynical about making money from the N.A market.

Don’t Catalans get pots of regional government cash for (essentially) their boost to tourism, though?

And despite all their iffy imports, Catalans are good for player development in France. As are Toulouse. As are London.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

One of the big differences is that the RFL and SLE actively sought French expansion and is a more natural fit geographically.

My personal view is that the Catalans experience is maybe making it a touch more difficult four TWP, unfairly. As we have seen, trying to monetise Catalans centrally has been difficult (SLE has failed) as we have no payment for broadcasting rights and no French investment. A little like how we never really capitalised on London, or when we have gone to new areas with Magic.

I think this makes people cynical about making money from the N.A market.

Maybe if we had 2 French teams, which of course was the original Super League plan, then we can provide a package that is more appealing to the French TV networks. 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

Yeah it was no way the main reason but it was not in any way an advantage. That's why I don't get the issue of blocks of games. 

Block games in my opinion actually benefit TWP, as I stated before when they are playing away from Canada with the exception of going to France the player's are actually living at home, so no hardship in that whatsoever, alternatively when their 'block' fixtures of games played in Canada comes about they will have the benefit of being acclimatised to their surroundings, not travelling for the game as the SL clubs will have to do, living out of hotels and training in unfamiliar places.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Don’t Catalans get pots of regional government cash for (essentially) their boost to tourism, though?

And despite all their iffy imports, Catalans are good for player development in France. As are Toulouse. As are London.

But the other clubs dont see this benefit directly is my point. Catalans are a very strong SL team but we still dont see the French investment, I believe that is why clubs are cynical about some of the claims of NA investment. Purely talking about benefit to the SLE central pot.

Now there may be indirect benefits like positive image on the comp and the additional 14 tv games a year.

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Block games in my opinion actually benefit TWP, as I stated before when they are playing away from Canada with the exception of going to France the player's are actually living at home, so no hardship in that whatsoever, alternatively when their 'block' fixtures of games played in Canada comes about they will have the benefit of being acclimatised to their surroundings, not travelling for the game as the SL clubs will have to do, living out of hotels and training in unfamiliar places.

When they play away they are inconvenienced compared to the home teams. Players from overseas certainly aren't at home and even those from England are from all over. By your very argument you cant then say playing at home is this huge advantage if your argument for them being away is that they are at living at home etc. Surely by your own argument the Toronto players must also be living out of hotels and training in unfamiliar places when in Toronto. That is unless you are trying to paint a completely false best of all worlds picture.

I'm fairly sure that being playing in blocks and constantly moving around with unfamiliar facilities etc is far from ideal and would be undesirable for any team. No coach or player would ideally want that. That is before you consider the amount of training time that must be wasted each year by traveling and the fatigue this causes. I'm sure Toronto would much prefer to be in the one location all year round and just travel away to France or Canada a couple of times a year like Wigan or Leeds would have to do.

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

But the other clubs dont see this benefit directly is my point. Catalans are a very strong SL team but we still dont see the French investment, I believe that is why clubs are cynical about some of the claims of NA investment. Purely talking about benefit to the SLE central pot.

Now there may be indirect benefits like positive image on the comp and the additional 14 tv games a year.

The TWP are in my opinion the biggest chance the game will ever get to making some sort of footprint in the biggest sport market in the world which is North America.

Junior playing numbers are falling of the cliff in this country and if we don't expand the game will die in this country. Insular admin people are holding the game back

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

The TWP are in my opinion the biggest chance the game will ever get to making some sort of footprint in the biggest sport market in the world which is North America.

Junior playing numbers are falling of the cliff in this country and if we don't expand the game will die in this country. Insular admin people are holding the game back

I agree. Yes it may not be planned, yes it may not be what some people want in an ideal world. However when a good thing comes along, cost free and with no risk to the game, then the game needs to run with it. To do what Toronto have done so far would have easily cost the game a small fortune that the game doesn't have. I'd say £10 million+ easily. Ditto with Ottawa if that comes off.

What possible growth is there on the horizon from within the UK? None as far as I can see. There has been little change on that front since I first started watching the game. The game still suffers from the same issues it always has, a lack of money and a genuine image problem with downright snobbery from some in the way some perceive the game. I certainly don't see those obstacles and barriers in Canada and I think that big clubs in America can change that situation and perception in the UK. Toronto is everything Super League should be.

Yes the North East and Newcastle is showing great grass roots growth but are far from a Super League big club offering. York are doing some great stuff as a club too. Top down expansion doesn't stop that growth and indeed should supplement it by giving youngsters a big, glamorous competition to aspire to. I have never understood the whole top down v bottom up expansion debate, we can and should be doing both, especially when others are footing the bill.

[Harry Stottle]

The last post got me considering how long SL teams would visit Canada for.

In the Championship(s) the teams who visited TWP in the main got to Canada as late as possible and departed on the first available flights probably because part time player's were required to get back to their 'proper' jobs.

That will not apply to the full time status of the SL teams, if they are to play on a Saturday or maybe even a Sunday I should imagine that they would want to prepare properly for the game they are travelling to compete in, and that includes not just the player's but all those involved in the normal preperation the match day personnel, so I would say they would require one day outbound travelling, two days training/preperation, match day itself, one day recovery/treatment room/rubbing down, recuperation exercising before the flight, and one day return travel. Even if they ditched the last day and flew home the day after the game that would still be a period of 4 nights hotels and subsistence that requires paying for, personally did a lot of work away from home and I also had lads working for me who also had to stay away and for that inconvenience I always instructed that they should not expect anything substandard to being as comfortable as they would if they were still at home, in that I would not expect SL teams and nessacary match day personnel to be anything other than in comfortable surroundings, even if the flights are payed for there will be substantial costs to a club fir the time they are away, costs they would not encounter normally, and if they have to do that x2 to accommodate the loopy fixtures, or maybe 3 times in the event of cup ties, could even be 4 times if TWP are as successful as K'man expects and they reach the play-offs, then and I ask this loosely, who should finance it?

I do not think it unreasonable for a SL team to want to prepare properly and adequately for any fixture and spending 4 nights away in a good standard class of accomodation is required to do such, do I think the individual clubs should bore the cost, no I don't, the 'handout' 1.85M that TWP would be payed, should be put in a fund to cover clubs costs, in going over there, but they still need to pay their way, so it is imperative that they get a TV deal to put into the pot.

[Oxford]

I will miss TGG if TWP are not allowed in.

In this age of glasses, contact lenses and laser eye treatments you'd think myopia and tunnel vision were  conditions that required an historic reference point.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

When they play away they are inconvenienced compared to the home teams. Players from overseas certainly aren't at home and even those from England are from all over. By your very argument you cant then say playing at home is this huge advantage if your argument for them being away is that they are at living at home etc. Surely by your own argument the Toronto players must also be living out of hotels and training in unfamiliar places when in Toronto. That is unless you are trying to paint a completely false best of all worlds picture.

I'm fairly sure that being playing in blocks and constantly moving around with unfamiliar facilities etc is far from ideal and would be undesirable for any team. No coach or player would ideally want that. That is before you consider the amount of training time that must be wasted each year by traveling and the fatigue this causes. I'm sure Toronto would much prefer to be in the one location all year round and just travel away to France or Canada a couple of times a year like Wigan or Leeds would have to do.

Don't agree Damien, firstly lets take the player's from overseas, they have excersized an option to make their living away from where they call 'home', indeed most return 'home' when their playing/working life in that sense cones to an end, that is their choice.

Secondly, when the TWP players coaching staff etc are in England training in Manchester their normal base and playing 'away' games they are mostly billeted in their normal place of residence (at home), just as many, many player's do as Lancashire lads do when employed at Yorkshire clubs and visa versa, they travel to work and train, indeed lots of 'part time players' do exactly the same even journeying to and from Cumbria.

I would agree with you re the block games concering TWP living in hotels or whatever in Canada that it is not ideal, but if you can't see or envisage that by the amount of time they will spend there they will be so much more familiar and conversant with their surroundings than will any visiting team, would you not say that is to their advantage?

As for your last paragraph "is far from ideal and would be undesirable for any team. No coach or player would ideally want that" and "Toronto would much prefer to be in the one location all year round and just travel away to France or Canada a couple of times a year like Wigan or Leeds would have to do" - is that the best you can offer as an argument on behalf of TWP? - If that was the case we would not be having this discussion, anybody who is employed by TWP not domiciled in Canada know full well before they sign their contract that they will be commiting themselves to travelling far more extensively than signing for an Engish based club, as they say "if you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen" 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

I will miss TGG if TWP are not allowed in.

In this age of glasses, contact lenses and laser eye treatments you'd think myopia and tunnel vision were  conditions that required an historic reference point.

So am I correct in thinking that you would abandon the game you favour on what you believe to be a point of principle, if as promised Mr Elstone states prior to the Championship GF that any decision concerning TWP not to be allowed into SL is announced.

Now then, 7 days after the Championship GF the SL GF is to be played and your beloved Salford could possibly be one of the participating finalists, are you honestly telling all that read these pages that you would take no interest in that game at all, go on answer it honestly please, you are either in or out, no grey area's allowed.

Perhaps you have been rash or may I say "shortsighted" in making your statement, I do not consider for one moment that you would abandon Salford if they were to make the GF, if you do then I would say congratulations "There is a man who stands by his principles"

I for one will miss the amusing comments you make on these pages if TWP are not allowed in.

P.S. I hope we don't have to take your footnote seriously:-

“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”   

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So am I correct in thinking that you would abandon the game you favour on what you believe to be a point of principle, if as promised Mr Elstone states prior to the Championship GF that any decision concerning TWP not to be allowed into SL is announced.

Now then, 7 days after the Championship GF the SL GF is to be played and your beloved Salford could possibly be one of the participating finalists, are you honestly telling all that read these pages that you would take no interest in that game at all, go on answer it honestly please, you are either in or out, no grey area's allowed.

Perhaps you have been rash or may I say "shortsighted" in making your statement, I do not consider for one moment that you would abandon Salford if they were to make the GF, if you do then I would say congratulations "There is a man who stands by his principles"

I for one will miss the amusing comments you make on these pages if TWP are not allowed in.

Is this any different to myself losing interest in RL during licencing Harry ? , Many on here suggested it wasn't ?

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Is this any different to myself losing interest in RL during licencing Harry ? , Many on here suggested it wasn't ?

So why did you come back Gubby, honest answer requested from your goodself please.

Did you not attend the LSV in '13 and '14 (if not you missed some scintillating football) only for you to return for the '15 season and the reintroduced P&R format, albeit through the 8's format?

[Gooleboy]

Apart from maybe Toulouse, does Mr Elstone and SL want anyone else, would they also close the door on York and Featherstone?

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

Apart from maybe Toulouse, does Mr Elstone and SL want anyone else, would they also close the door on York and Featherstone?

No, I don't think so, what do you think and why Gooleboy?

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So why did you come back Gubby, honest answer requested from your goodself please.

Did you not attend the LSV in '13 and '14 (if not you missed some scintillating football) only for you to return for the '15 season and the reintroduced P&R format, albeit through the 8's format?

Because the games regained meaning , I did attend some during that time , cup games ,play off games , but mostly away league games for the ' day out ' aspect 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

I will miss TGG if TWP are not allowed in.

In this age of glasses, contact lenses and laser eye treatments you'd think myopia and tunnel vision were  conditions that required an historic reference point.

I have to say I will be very disappointed with the sport if they are denied entry to SL , just as I have been in the past wit numerous decisions by the clubs admin the past 

[Harry Stottle]

19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Because the games regained meaning , I did attend some during that time , cup games ,play off games , but mostly away league games for the ' day out ' aspect 

So you did not lose interest to the extent that Mr Oxford suggests that he will abandon the game then?

Also through these pages from previous comments you have made, you state you were a member of the board at Leigh Centurions - apologies if I have got that wrong - if so why would you just want to go to other grounds and not assist 'your team' by paying your admission money at the LSV, is there some other underlying reason you chose not to attend? obviously I would respect a 'no comment' should you decide that.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So you did not lose interest to the extent that Mr Oxford suggests that he will abandon the game then?

Also through these pages from previous comments you have made, you state you were a member of the board at Leigh Centurions - apologies if I have got that wrong - if so why would you just want to go to other grounds and not assist 'your team' by paying your admission money at the LSV, is there some other underlying reason you chose not to attend? obviously I would respect a 'no comment' should you decide that.

Yes I was , 2002-2006 , as I put , it was the ' day out aspect , I genuinely enjoy visiting other clubs , the games are more difficult to win , the atmosphere is better in respect of Leigh usually taking a decent support 

No underlying reasons , nobody had upset me to the point I wouldn't go at home , just it all started feeling ' flat ' , not the same interest