Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

With all due respect Harry the away following of any side to Leigh isn't the be all and end all. I would expect Leigh away was one of the lower attended fixtures for many travelling fans of SL teams in 2017. Classic jokes aside accessibility and relative level of the fixture does come into play.

I've been to Toronto games over here with more than 100 Toronto fans. Does our anecdotal evidence cancel eachother out?

Tommy, your first sentance belittles someone of your intellect, it was an observation.

Secondly yes, away fans at Leigh in SL were not that good, your lot was terrible but I believe that for the best supported team in the league at home Leeds fans don't travel well in numbers, Wigan and Warrington, 7 and 10 miles away respectively were also phiss poor, Saints most definatley brought the best following.

Relative level of fixture? The Leeds game was the first of the season, Leigh should have won that game but for a bad decision from a forward who with the line some three meters away and collegues unmarked he choose to keep hold and allowed Jimmy Kienhorst to affect a very good tackle, Leigh won against the other 3 very local rivals. Leigh did average 6,500 at home in '17 better than quite a few other SL clubs irrespective of the terrible travelling fans.

I did not single TWP out, I related to the following each of all the overseas clubs recieve and for all the admiration they conjure up on these pages it does not reflect in the attendances of my expierience of being at the stadium. So No your smugly implied 'anecdotal evidence' does not cancel it out, I related to 3 teams you have only given your experience of one by your own admission - did you not go to Headingley for the Cats game , and I remember TO visiting Headingley in the 8's tell me about that also, or did your observation of the following that those teams recieved not suit your post?

 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, RP London said:

if they just turned around to TWP and said "no your not coming in" and TWP ended up folding.. not that i think they would but it would be a major set back if they won promotion only to be told they weren't actually welcome..

They would only be told they weren't actually welcome because of some misdemeanour (unpaid debts) or if the fit was not right in the eye's of those it will effect, but with due respect if in the last 3 years TWP had shown the intention of trying to do something with grass roots or even somehow endeavoring to convert a very very small portion of all those ready made athlete's. 

You say it is not three years wasted, yes it is, there is always day one and if positve moves had been made in those directions we could all see that their intention of an 'expansion' programme for the game of RL in Canada is much more than just plonking some player's over there, in my opinion they have not done any other prospective NA club any favours whatsoever.

18 hours ago, RP London said:

I dont see why you are spoiling for an argument but your putting words into my mouth to make one.. so you can join Parky on ignore.

Really, I would have thought that you were better than that!

[Harry Stottle]

19 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

TWP are a professional rugby club, not a youth development organization.  CRL is kind of a bloody joke and they need to get their own house in order before TWP think about working with them.

If that is your attitude CR and it may be the Canadian way and that being the case it's no wonder how we are told by you and your colleagues that "we don't care about home grown talent in any sport we play in Canada we just buy them in", effectively what you are saying is we rely on others to do all the work for us.

You may not know this, one of the criteria in the document "Framing the future" for inclusion into SL was to actively be involved in player development, I consider that will be repeated and enforced more stringently than last time, if your club takes the same attitude as you do they may as well fcuk off now, if you are member of an organisation you play by the rules, no exceptions, if you can't comply then don't bother applying.

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Nobody has ignored CRL, CRL is basically a non-entity.  

CRL is also actually three sub-associations.  BCRL, ARL and ORL.  The only one that seems to be even semi-competently run is BCRL.  

I don't think the focus in Canada should be on mimicking what's been done in the UK or Australia with clubs.  If anything, Rugby League needs to model itself like Minor Football in this country.  The focus being on youth participation as opposed to adult leagues.

Oh my, how do you think the adult leagues come about, it is the kids who play the game and get older who populate the adult leagues, there are not that many adults who having never played RL decide to give it a go in adulthood, now that may be hard for you to understand but it is a fact. 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

TWP have nothing to do with Ottawa bid.  They aren't waiting for anybody.

The "Putting Rugby Balls in Kids Hands" isn't a TWP slogan, the reason they say it is because one of their partners is "Rugby Alliance" who do indeed put a lot of Rugby Balls in kids hands:

https://rugbyallianceevents.com/

Different country my friend, we do things differently over here, best get used to it if you want us around.

Now that is a good debatable subject.

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If that is your attitude CR and it may be the Canadian way and that being the case it's no wonder how we are told by you and your colleagues that "we don't care about home grown talent in any sport we play in Canada we just buy them in", effectively what you are saying is we rely on others to do all the work for us.

You may not know this, one of the criteria in the document "Framing the future" for inclusion into SL was to actively be involved in player development, I consider that will be repeated and enforced more stringently than last time, if your club takes the same attitude as you do they may as well fcuk off now, if you are member of an organisation you play by the rules, no exceptions, if you can't comply then don't bother applying.

What a bitter little post. Toronto Wolfpack have built a fanbase of thousands of fans from nothing, arranged television coverage of dozens of their games, both home and abroad, so English fans can see their clubs play, and generated more column inches in 3 years than most clubs do in 30. Except for when they're going bust. 

And yet "others are doing all the work for them" and they should fcuk off? 

Just desperate. 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Didn't Wakefield host Bradford in the first 'Million Pound' game at Belle Vue?

  Didn't Hull KR host Salford in the most exciting/entertaining 'Million Pound' game.

  Toronto are hosting this latest 'Million Pounds' game - the first after the 8's were abolished.  

But it is a Championship play off competition, as it as been in the past, same as SL, TWP earned the right to play at home and winning that game puts them in the final,  that should be the end of contingencies, play the final at a neutral  venue. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

This is unbelievable way back when TWP came in in 2016 the SL criteria were agreed of expanding the Pro-player pool and finding a big NATV deal to share. Good heavens man Perez said this and you can look it up.  But you look nothing up and never have done.

Whilst in the Championship TWP added about 4 NA players to the player pool but sacked them. Then they got a TV deal in which THEY PAID to get it. It's not as if they have done nothing towards players and TV money, they have actually managed to sack North American players and reduce the collective income from TV deals by paying for them and not receiving from them

There are two absurdities here that TWP offer less than nothing on the criteria they entered on, and yet they are lauded for what? The glamour? The breath of fresh air? The marketing? you could not get any more phoney baloney than that, and you my friend can't answer me can you. 

 

Ok, we often get challenge bya couple of people here to engage with you, so let's have a little go - can you answer these questions with one-line responses?

1 - You claim the SL criteria are Huge NA TV Deal and new pro-players. You claim this is a fact. However it is fair to say they don't have these things, so why are the conversations ongoing?

2 - You talk about reading things and researching - so let's bat that one back at you. Martyn Sadler stated on here that he believes one of the pieces of criteria to be resolved is around working visa exemptions, and Bob Hunter has stated that the criteria they are trying to meet at the moment is the proof of financial viability. These are not the same as your stated criteria, why?

3 - And on the criteria - could you provide evidence of what they are? As in official evidence, not aims, or Michael Carter's opinion, or Lenegan's opinion etc. which often differ from each other. Clear, unambiguous, written criteria. If you can't do this, then you really should back off from suggesting other people are clueless and read nothing, because we all read plenty. All of your reading appears to be way out of date and extremely selective.

So, this will be my one attempt to engage in the debate, shortish replies would be appreciated.

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, ojx said:

When will this thread end.  Elstone shouldn't have a job anywhere near sports administration.

It is 4 days before the MPG and no one can be sure what the stakes are. It's not like Toronto have been run away leaders since the third week of the season, and this was an unforeseeable situation.

When the NFL look at trans-Atlantic expansion, they make years of planning and investment, slowly building up the number of games played in London until it is a half season schedule. 

SL has no plan, this is just an annoyance being thrust upon them. They would much prefer a "Super" league with a quarter of the teams coming from Wakefield.

Mickey Mouse.

One big massive difference here my friend, the RFL was not looking or as far as I know in contemplating trans Atlantic 'expansion' , It was TWP that came a knocking, perhaps with hindsight the RFL should have said "come back when when you have slowly built up the game over there, and have something to give back to the game"

[Treize Hombres]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If that is your attitude CR and it may be the Canadian way and that being the case it's no wonder how we are told by you and your colleagues that "we don't care about home grown talent in any sport we play in Canada we just buy them in", effectively what you are saying is we rely on others to do all the work for us.

You may not know this, one of the criteria in the document "Framing the future" for inclusion into SL was to actively be involved in player development, I consider that will be repeated and enforced more stringently than last time, if your club takes the same attitude as you do they may as well fcuk off now, if you are member of an organisation you play by the rules, no exceptions, if you can't comply then don't bother applying.

Regarding player development many pro RL clubs don't care about investing in the junior scene. It could be argued that they rely on the likes of Wigan and Cas to do all the work for them at youth level. This has been going on for decades.

As for framing the future that was a complete joke. Some top clubs wouldn't meet the criteria for entry into SL based on their facilities and what happened to the crowd levels that had to be met. If memory serves it was about the 10,000 level. Sort of what TWP are hitting now.

And you mention for playing by the rules. What rules??? TWP have done so for the past three seasons, are days away from a championship final and the powers that be are still dithering on what the hell is at stake on Saturday. This makes our sport look Mickey Mouse as a previous poster suggested. 

The only good thing to come out of this that the Canadian fans have found out at an early stage  how inept our Administrators are and how short sighted and greedy some of the SL clubs are. 

 

 

 

[RP London]

53 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

They would only be told they weren't actually welcome because of some misdemeanour (unpaid debts) or if the fit was not right in the eye's of those it will effect, but with due respect if in the last 3 years TWP had shown the intention of trying to do something with grass roots or even somehow endeavoring to convert a very very small portion of all those ready made athlete's. 

You say it is not three years wasted, yes it is, there is always day one and if positve moves had been made in those directions we could all see that their intention of an 'expansion' programme for the game of RL in Canada is much more than just plonking some player's over there, in my opinion they have not done any other prospective NA club any favours whatsoever.

 

See this is the thing.. if they had good reason not to let them in then that is fine, unpaid debts can be unpaid for reasons that are legitimate so until we know the full ins and outs of that it would be unfair for any of us to say they are truly unpaid debts and i am pretty clear about that stance on all subjects of this type.. 

again we are commenting on things we have no clue about... how do you know they have not shown any intention of doing any of that.. just because they haven't done anything in the public eye does not mean nothing has been done!

It isnt 3 years wasted at all.. because what else was going to happen in that 3 years in RL in the country... they have brought bigger gates to many clubs (this is a good thing) they have brought extra exposure to other clubs (this is a good thing) and there are other bonuses of having them in that are difficult to quantify (like the exposure). If that is all they have brought that has still been a benefit to those clubs, if they had not been here the game would either be in the exact same state or it would be slightly worse off.. there is nothing that they have damaged over the last 3 years (some may say reputation of the comp but i would argue that is not the case).

If there is a good solid reason for not having them in then that is fine (I am sorry but no development IMHO is not one right now.. 3 years in.. put targets in place and kick them out if you want to play that but equally you HAVE to do this for everyone) but unfortunately I do not have the faith in the RFL or SL to make this decision fair, i would not be surprised if it isn't "we just want more money/we don't want to spend money today (even if there may be reward down the line)" from the clubs and that is what sinks them.. which would be wrong

53 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, I would have thought that you were better than that!

Why? someone is putting words in my mouth and trying to argue with me about something i havent actually said, why should I put up with that? Thats something I cant be doing with, and if that is what that person is like then I dont want to speak to them (in the real world I would just walk away from the bar)

I dont agree with you on TWP's inclusion, i do on other things, but we can talk about it without, quite frankly, lying and I appreciate that and happy to continue, you have good points and i am happy to hear a well put together opinion and when you question it is about what I have actually said, not what you would like me to say for you to be upset. Though to be honest i think on this subject we may have reached an impasse as we are seeing the same facts but interpreting them differently as neither have the full facts.

As for Parky i just got bored of seeing the same post over and over along with the fact i have argued against his points, with actual facts umpteen times, answered his points etc just to be told "no one has provided any facts" or "no one has answered" so it was/is just utterly pointless getting into conversations with him (equally even when you prove his facts are wrong they are back into his next post on the subject) so i've just blocked it so I dont have to waste my time. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

What a bitter little post. Toronto Wolfpack have built a fanbase of thousands of fans from nothing, arranged television coverage of dozens of their games, both home and abroad, so English fans can see their clubs play, and generated more column inches in 3 years than most clubs do in 30. Except for when they're going bust. 

And yet "others are doing all the work for them" and they should fcuk off? 

Just desperate. 

And another who seemingly can't see the woods for the trees, our Canadian friends all the time have been saying, in all the sports we play in Toronto we buy Players In, we don't care where they come from it is our way, so if that is not reliant on others doing the work what is? they are either incapable of nurturing their own talent or do not have the raw materials at hand, or has Canadian Rugger implies, not a youth development organisation, so tell me if the lead body does as in TWP do not take up the mantle who should do? If TWP see themselves in this game for the long haul it will be they who subsequently will benefit.

[Damien]

58 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

One big massive difference here my friend, the RFL was not looking or as far as I know in contemplating trans Atlantic 'expansion' , It was TWP that came a knocking, perhaps with hindsight the RFL should have said "come back when when you have slowly built up the game over there, and have something to give back to the game"

Why should they have done? This is you implementing your own bottom up criteria. Many disagree with this approach and would instead advocate top down, which is essentially what Toronto are doing.

[Harry Stottle]

59 minutes ago, Treize Hombres said:

Regarding player development many pro RL clubs don't care about investing in the junior scene. It could be argued that they rely on the likes of Wigan and Cas to do all the work for them at youth level. This has been going on for decades.

As for framing the future that was a complete joke. Some top clubs wouldn't meet the criteria for entry into SL based on their facilities and what happened to the crowd levels that had to be met. If memory serves it was about the 10,000 level. Sort of what TWP are hitting now.

And you mention for playing by the rules. What rules??? TWP have done so for the past three seasons, are days away from a championship final and the powers that be are still dithering on what the hell is at stake on Saturday. This makes our sport look Mickey Mouse as a previous poster suggested. 

The only good thing to come out of this that the Canadian fans have found out at an early stage  how inept our Administrators are and how short sighted and greedy some of the SL clubs are. 

Treize, you are preaching to the converted a number of pages back I said in my opinion that every SL club without exception should be running a youth development programme working with the community game and also having an Academy, no Academy no SL.

Agree that Framing of the future was a joke, but mistakes have to learned from that and decisions however hard they seem need to be taken.

The rules will be announced no question about that, I am convinced that come the end of this Sky contract SL will push again for a closed shop, wherever the incumbants of the League perform from every club should abide by the same conditions,  would it be unfair to say if any club cannot or are incapable of adding to the player pool it would be OK for them just to employ people others have spent a lot of money on developing them, now before you tell me that is what happens in normal life I will agree, but normal life can't make conditions, SL can they can deny entry to anyone who can't comply.

 

[Harry Stottle]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

Why should they have done? This is you implementing your own bottom up criteria. Many disagree with this approach and would instead advocate top down, which is essentially what Toronto are doing.

No Damien, I was answering the 'preperation' before implementation that OXJ suggested of another sport I Quote :-

When the NFL look at trans-Atlantic expansion, they make years of planning and investment, slowly building up the number of games played in London until it is a half season schedule. 

I was merely pointing out if you care to read back, that the RFL did not look at Trans Atlantic expansion, TWP knocked on the door cap in hand and requested to come to the party in add hoc fashion and both parties learning as they went along, I suggested in hindsight, it may have been better if they had come prepared before they were accepted, I presume you know the saying, 

Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents ###### Poor Performance.

Things can be uncovered as time passes, then people get hurt. Nothing whatsoever with a Top down Bottom up approach, incidentally yes many on this site disagree, but I speak to many others that don't.

 

[RP London]

25 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And another who seemingly can't see the woods for the trees, our Canadian friends all the time have been saying, in all the sports we play in Toronto we buy Players In, we don't care where they come from it is our way, so if that is not reliant on others doing the work what is? they are either incapable of nurturing their own talent or do not have the raw materials at hand, or has Canadian Rugger implies, not a youth development organisation, so tell me if the lead body does not take up the mantle who should do?

Just to make a point on this.. without wanting to talk for someone else but... I think the key is not that they dont care about junior development in Canada and just "buy players in" but that the general sporting landscape in North America is different. With the draft system they are used to having their "top level teams" packed full of players not from Toronto, Ontario or Canada and so it is not a cause for concern for them that there are no Canadian, Torontonians etc in their first team. There are plenty of Canadians playing in the NHL but on American sides etc.. they do their fair share of junior development, high schools, colleges etc but its not the be all and end all to have locals in the local team. 

Also it is not in north american culture for academies to exist as such as this is something done by the colleges before the draft system. Therefore a team doing this sort of work is counter cultural (if that makes sense). 

maybe the above is why it has been harder for them to get this sorted to the level we may expect? even down to who should be responsible.

[TboneFromTO]

Gentlemen, can we try to be civil? Some good arguments have been made on both sides of the aisle and we are getting so heated that the mods must be getting ready to shout order like the house speaker!

Anyway Toronto should do more on player development but SL should be clearer, and should have sorted this out months ago.

[Toby Chopra]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And another who seemingly can't see the woods for the trees, our Canadian friends all the time have been saying, in all the sports we play in Toronto we buy Players In, we don't care where they come from it is our way, so if that is not reliant on others doing the work what is? they are either incapable of nurturing their own talent or do not have the raw materials at hand, or has Canadian Rugger implies, not a youth development organisation, so tell me if the lead body does not take up the mantle who should do?

The Wolfpack aren't the "lead body" for rugby league in Canada, they are a professional sports club, who contribute to our system by providing full time, well paid (for rugby league) playing opportunities for mostly British players, entirely using resources they have generated themselves, taking not a penny from the existing pot.

In the 21st century, this is a crucial part of the player development system. Without such opportunities to aspire to, players won't be making the commitment to devote themselves to the sport from their teens, and the game will wither. It won't matter who's devoping them in their early years as the flow will dry up.

They certainly won't be flocking to play for the mostly penniless clubs that populate the British game, inclding those that tried to blackmail their own players into taking pay cuts or face the whole club being shut down. Given these options, no wonder we are struggling to attract young people to commit to the sport. They will be lost, and so eventually will the British game. 

It's not like the old days any more, players don't play rugby along side their actual job, in their home town. In an ever more competitive and internationalised  market, sports have to provide serious career opportunities to prospective players, as well as giving them a structure to develop in. Only a hand full of our clubs provide both of these aspects, some provide one - either early career development or well paid jobs. Most of our clubs provide neither and frankly are professional in name only. 

It's fair to examine what clubs put in and take out of a sport as a whole, but any examination of the Wolfpack will show they are well in credit. Attempts to single them out over player development is either based on a complete lack of knowledge of how modern sport works, or a wilful attempt to mislead. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

The Wolfpack aren't the "lead body" for rugby league in Canada, they are a professional sports club, who contribute to our system by providing full time, well paid (for rugby league) playing opportunities for mostly British players, entirely using resources they have generated themselves, taking not a penny from the existing pot.

In the 21st century, this is a crucial part of the player development system. Without such opportunities to aspire to, players won't be making the commitment to devote themselves to the sport from their teens, and the game will wither. It won't matter who's devoping them in their early years as the flow will dry up.

They certainly won't be flocking to play for the mostly penniless clubs that populate the British game, inclding those that tried to blackmail their own players into taking pay cuts or face the whole club being shut down. Given these options, no wonder we are struggling to attract young people to commit to the sport. They will be lost, and so eventually will the British game. 

It's not like the old days any more, players don't play rugby along side their actual job, in their home town. In an ever more competitive and internationalised  market, sports have to provide serious career opportunities to prospective players, as well as giving them a structure to develop in. Only a hand full of our clubs provide both of these aspects, some provide one - either early career development or well paid jobs. Most of our clubs provide neither and frankly are professional in name only. 

It's fair to examine what clubs put in and take out of a sport as a whole, but any examination of the Wolfpack will show they are well in credit. Attempts to single them out over player development is either based on a complete lack of knowledge of how modern sport works, or a wilful attempt to mislead. 

 

A long way around saying, you are correct we don't develop player's in Canada, that is for others to do.

[Damien]

42 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No Damien, I was answering the 'preperation' before implementation that OXJ suggested of another sport I Quote :-

When the NFL look at trans-Atlantic expansion, they make years of planning and investment, slowly building up the number of games played in London until it is a half season schedule. 

I was merely pointing out if you care to read back, that the RFL did not look at Trans Atlantic expansion, TWP knocked on the door cap in hand and requested to come to the party in add hoc fashion and both parties learning as they went along, I suggested in hindsight, it may have been better if they had come prepared before they were accepted, I presume you know the saying, 

Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents ###### Poor Performance.

Things can be uncovered as time passes, then people get hurt. Nothing whatsoever with a Top down Bottom up approach, incidentally yes many on this site disagree, but I speak to many others that don't.

 

Which was nothing to do with what you said, It was TWP that came a knocking, perhaps with hindsight the RFL should have said "come back when when you have slowly built up the game over there, and have something to give back to the game"

That is quite different to the preparation that OXJ is referring to.

[Bob8]

On 12/09/2019 at 17:01, Big Picture said:

Another sign that the right place for the likes of Toronto and New York is not the existing UK RL structure but a new transatlantic built-for-purpose league with franchises in major world class cities in Europe and America* which are strategically chosen to maximize that league's appeal to broadcasters and sponsors.

* Meaning the continent extending from Ellesmere Island down the Tierra del Fuego, not the US.

You know how this is argued against every time you raise it?

Well, all that stuff again.

OK, you are right! Brilliant! Which league should they join that fits your criteria?

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

You know how this is argued against every time you raise it?

Well, all that stuff again.

OK, you are right! Brilliant! Which league should they join that fits your criteria?

It doesn't exist yet, it would have to be created before any franchises could be granted just as Super Rugby and Pro 14 had to be created before any franchises joined those leagues.

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Secondly yes, away fans at Leigh in SL were not that good, your lot was terrible but I believe that for the best supported team in the league at home Leeds fans don't travel well in numbers, Wigan and Warrington, 7 and 10 miles away respectively were also phiss poor, Saints most definatley brought the best following.

Relative level of fixture? The Leeds game was the first of the season, Leigh should have won that game but for a bad decision from a forward who with the line some three meters away and collegues unmarked he choose to keep hold and allowed Jimmy Kienhorst to affect a very good tackle, Leigh won against the other 3 very local rivals. Leigh did average 6,500 at home in '17 better than quite a few other SL clubs irrespective of the terrible travelling fans.

When I say attractiveness of the fixture I mean at the start of the year it wasn't one many Leeds fans or indeed others were highly anticipating or would be in fear of missing out on. Just as Arsenal fans won't be checking the list to see when Burnley away is for example. I also think it was on TV iirc. There's no need to be so defensive about Leigh its not a personal attack.

That you highlight it was a poor following from many teams, not just the international sides, does that not devalue your point about the relative travelling numbers of fans?

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I did not single TWP out, I related to the following each of all the overseas clubs recieve and for all the admiration they conjure up on these pages it does not reflect in the attendances of my expierience of being at the stadium. So No your smugly implied 'anecdotal evidence' does not cancel it out, I related to 3 teams you have only given your experience of one by your own admission - did you not go to Headingley for the Cats game , and I remember TO visiting Headingley in the 8's tell me about that also, or did your observation of the following that those teams recieved not suit your post?

I didn't actually, I said games. I've been to a few Toronto games in the UK. Of course at Headingley, but also twice at Newcastle including their game against Widnes earlier this year. I've also been to most of the Dragons games at Headingley as I am both a ST holder and have a few Catalan mates - including our playoff defeat in 2013. I've also been to most Magic weekends where there have been a travelling band of Catalans and Toronto fans in recent years. I don't remember the Toulouse game much other than it being a bit of a thrashing. 

I've also been to every WCC the Rhinos (so that's another 4 teams) have played in in England and the "lack of away fans" hasn't been an issue there. 

I must admit I wasn't at the Bradford game this year where they took a fair few to Odsal. This all needs to remain in the context of a club that is barely 3 years old.

Either way I don't think your anecdotal evidence is any more or less relevant than anyone else's. 

[Loup]

Good morning from a rainy Wednesday in Toronto, hey everyone, any word yet from Mr. Elstone?

[Kayakman]

The announcement will be coming soon...Elstone caved in when his sad bluff was called and Rimmer fainted......Argyle is smiling all the way to Perth.

Take it to the bank.