The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, yipyee said:

1 Its the same attitude over and over again. Same point different trigger

2. For me the situation would be different if they had gone straight into SL but making a team start from a semi pro (basically amateur) comp and therefore needing to build multiple teams theough a short space of time, making them pay all travel costs for what was always going to be a precession, then when at the point of joining SL say your not getting a slice of the cake even though you will be helping to bake it.. this is all after posting 5 figure bonds, something other clubs do not need to do. I think the RFL have clearly asked too much.

3. I agree about not accepting anything but theres got to be a culture of give and take.

The sky deal was poor and koukash said as much, he wanted to put the rights out to tender and the desperate RFL and other chairmen bit off skys hand at the first offer.

RU called skys bluff and went to BT as did the NRL (not BT but same principle)

I know elstone gets bad press for walking away from the french tv deal but it is the right attitude, the only way yoy can negotiate is to be prepared to walk away. I would be amazed if BT, Amazon, BBC, channel 4 or ITV wouldnt be interested in broardcasting live RL. 

The difference we have to soccer is that they film all the games and sell the content/stream. For me this is the way forward, wasnt it 24k a game? And that is for a full production.

1. But people don't have to believe in this. I don't agree with many of GUBRATS or Harry's views to use them as vocal examples against some of this stuff, but they are no less valid than those who are all in for expansion. 

2. I think allowing a club into SL that had no history of playing RL, attracting a crowd, attracting sponsors, running an RL operation in virgin territory would be a very bold move. Where is the proof of concept? I'm not against licensing by the way, but even in that world I don't think it would be unfair for a club to show what they can do in a lower division. Catalans had to do a lot of groundwork too. 

3. The idea of going out to tender is hardly a new one, we do it all the time, we have even outsourced this to experts. I'm not against the production point, a challenge for us is that we dont really have any international markets for our comp like the FA and RU Prem do. Which is ultimately why I am supportive of international expansion despite some cynicism about how this attempt is being done. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

But that`s not what you were saying, that`s a completely different discussion to the one I`m having with you. 

People feeling the game will die if this fails can pretty fairly be summed up as positioning them as saviours of the game here. Particularly when backed up with promises of untold riches. 

You don't have to agree, but it's absolutely the same point. The benefits and impact on SL are being massively overstated (or intentionally vague) and if we don't take them we die. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, yipyee said:

If we dont expand we will die, this is fact and is happening before our eyes.

Whether Toronto would trigger this is highly debatable but would definatly be another nail in the proverbial coffin.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by expand. 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

For the 47 years I have been involved in RL there has always been someone saying the game is dying.

What they actually mean is its not what they want it to be, which is something quite different.

Or it could be like an old man with a chronic disease, like cancer, saying that all my life people have been saying I would die.  But he then denies the required chemo that would give him a chance since he thinks he is invincible and will live forever.  Time for RL and SL to take the medicine...it might not be nice but makes common sense in the end.

[Martyn Sadler]

https://www.totalrl.com/the-key-decisions-on-toronto-wolfpack/

[Adelaide Tiger]

Here is my conspiracy take as to whether to accept TWP back into SL or not.

It could all be based on the fact that clubs according to a piece by Aaron Bower on 19 June 2020 will be £280,000 worse off next year after SKY and Super League agreed to a revised deal for 2021.  If things have changed in the meantime and there is no revised deal then my conspiracy theory is in the bin and you can save yourself a couple of minutes by not reading the rest of the post.

1. So after TWP won the Championship decider the agreed terms meant that TWP would not receive a share of the TV income so each of the other 11 SL clubs was around £163k better off and would get a free trip to Canada.  This windfall gave some SL clubs a bit of ‘breathing space‘ and they gratefully accepted the dosh.

As all this was pre Covid it seemed an easy way to grab easy money for subsequent seasons if TWP remained in SL.

2. But Covid came along.  Now IMHO it appears that the SL clubs - especially those with smaller income streams - may decide not to accept TWP for the 2021 season so each club will continue to have the £163k to offset the possible £280,000 deficit.  As to some clubs it is easier to take the £163k than to go out and plug the gap through hard work.

So again IMHO the future direction of the game is based on clubs deciding if they want the easier option to be £163k better off or not.

If that is the case then it is akin to moving the deck chairs on the Titanic as in 2022 the league will be back to 12 equal shares if Leigh, Fev or London etc. are promoted.

Therefore can someone please explain to me how SL can extract larger future TV deals by offering the same old thing?

 

[Man of Kent]

There's a dedicated thread for this 

[Hela Wigmen]

Re-admitting them and pandering to their excuse of not getting the £1.5m per annum changes nothing. The proverbial hamster wheel continues spinning till it can take no more and it falls apart, again. Just like it did with PSG. Just like it did with Gateshead Thunder. Just like it did with Celtic Crusaders. And just like it will again with Toronto Wolfpack. They were set up to fail and with their possible re-admission, nothing else appears to have changed so Toronto Wolfpack 2.0 will be set up to fail as well. If Super League are to readmit Toronto, it has to treat them differently.

[Phil]

14 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

https://www.totalrl.com/the-key-decisions-on-toronto-wolfpack/

Great article, I agree totally 

[yipyee]

49 minutes ago, Dave T said:

1. But people don't have to believe in this. I don't agree with many of GUBRATS or Harry's views to use them as vocal examples against some of this stuff, but they are no less valid than those who are all in for expansion. 

2. I think allowing a club into SL that had no history of playing RL, attracting a crowd, attracting sponsors, running an RL operation in virgin territory would be a very bold move. Where is the proof of concept? I'm not against licensing by the way, but even in that world I don't think it would be unfair for a club to show what they can do in a lower division. Catalans had to do a lot of groundwork too. 

3. The idea of going out to tender is hardly a new one, we do it all the time, we have even outsourced this to experts. I'm not against the production point, a challenge for us is that we dont really have any international markets for our comp like the FA and RU Prem do. Which is ultimately why I am supportive of international expansion despite some cynicism about how this attempt is being done. 

On point 1 other people views are of course important but can be nonesense, negative and counter productive drival that are not based on facts.

Just on point 2 i think the NFL are showing us how to create a team in a new area straight at the top level..

[Harry Stottle]

52 minutes ago, yipyee said:

If we dont expand we will die, this is fact

No it isn't.

[yipyee]

46 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose that depends on what you mean by expand. 

Expand ie grow,

[Wildcat]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

No it isn't.

Correct. Opinions are now facts on here, great isn't it? 

 

[yipyee]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

No it isn't.

Tell that to all the clubs who are no longer there,

League 1 may disappear 

As more and more sport is thrown at us and the participation is constantly under pressure from new sports emerging due to sports england funding for anyone who wants to start a new team /club then RL will die.

A good comparison would be to look at age old companies who didnt look to grow expand and modernise.

Who would have thought woolworths would have gone, and this happened because they stood still for too long.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Correct. Opinions are now facts on here, great isn't it? 

 

You made it a fact, I just disagreed with you.

[yipyee]

9 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Correct. Opinions are now facts on here, great isn't it? 

 

Not correct WAKE UP

The world is changing the high street is dead

RL will die if they dont look to grow

The very fact that Torontos survival along with several other clubs is proof that RL is on the edge. 

This is of course at a proffessional level, but if the top comps were no longer proffessional kids would start to play union

[Wildcat]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You made it a fact, I just disagreed with you.

I didn't make anything a fact. Just agreed with you. You quoted the wrong post. 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

I'm genuinely sorry for TWP and supporters like you.  I'd like the game to be expanded and improved.  I do not see that TWP failing will suffer UK RL particularly.  What a failed TWP does is ruin an opportunity for all of us.

If RL fails it will be because RL fails all on its own. But that is an other issue.

The harsh reality is that to transplant RL in a new continent from scratch takes time and huge amounts of money. I would have thought the penny might have dropped with that by now.  And also a small word called "organisation". And to be fair, the RFL and SL (and 30 individual clubs as well) are as much to blame for that.

The organisation is lacking.  The vision that some in SL have is constrained, by blinkered and self serving clubs. And money is lacking.

The real need is to bring in a massive investor, in the way that Liberty Media bought F1.  This would of course mean some loss of control but it would mean "organisation" and drive, and perhaps most important "clout", and if successful it would produce money for the clubs and RFL.

But yes, what is needed from all sides is "vision".

Don't feel sorry for us...we don't want pity from anyone...it is what is is....a golden opportunity missed, especially when all of the groundwork has been put in place...a real shame is all....too bad...shortsighted.

[Wildcat]

5 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Not correct WAKE UP

The world is changing the high street is dead

RL will die if they dont look to grow

Which again is just an opinion. Sigh.

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Not correct WAKE UP

The world is changing the high street is dead

RL will die if they dont look to grow

They just don't get it...the old ways of doing things are all over and will never come back (for all sports)....those who innovate will survive and, indeed, eventually thrive..

[yipyee]

1 minute ago, Wildcat said:

Which again is just an opinion. Sigh.

No its not bigger sigh

RL is on the edge the RFL admit they dont expect all clubs to come out the otherside

Toronto are saying they need the RFL to bend or they will die

This is different now to when people in the past have predicted it this is real and happening now.

If the RL footprint contracts and the tv deal is poor then there will be repocussions and the sport will go further down the downward spiral

[yipyee]

3 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

They just don't get it...the old ways of doing things are all over and will never come back (for all sports)....those who innovate will survive and, indeed, eventually thrive..

This happened in the UK highstreet

Those that changed and adapted survived, those stuck in the past died

[Wildcat]

1 minute ago, yipyee said:

 

If the RL footprint contracts and the tv deal is poor then there will be repocussions and the sport will go further down the downward spiral

Ok if this is fact, show me the evidence to back up this 'fact' then I shall concur. 

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, yipyee said:

On point 1 other people views are of course important but can be nonesense, negative and counter productive drival that are not based on facts.

Just on point 2 i think the NFL are showing us how to create a team in a new area straight at the top level..

1 - Agreed, but we need to be careful to think our own view is factual and others' are opinion based. We are generally all giving our opinion.

2 - Interested in this point - can you expand on that mate?

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Expand ie grow,

The problem is that your point is not a fact. The game could shrink, it doesn't mean it will die. Some would say that the game has shrunk versus 30 years ago (I disagree) but we have not died. 

But I agree that we should be looking to gro stronger by expanding our game - and I'm not sure anybody disagrees on that, many just have different opinions on how we do that. Even some of the current owners who are criticised are trying to grow the game, they just don't believe the best use of money is on Toronto.