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Israel Folau (Merged threads)

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Getting prosecuted for taking drugs 

Sacked , never given a contract again ever , done 

That's a fair enough view, but we have drugs policies, I am ok with the 2 and 4 year ban policy, if you prefer a life ban I can see the reasoning in that. 

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well my whole post was addressing this - that people should be given a 2nd chance, but that has to start with remorse.

I think in Hardakers case its his 3rd.

My real problem is with Super League chairman acting puritanical over Folua, but over looking what's gone on in the recent past

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2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I think in Hardakers case its his 3rd.

My real problem is with Super League chairman acting puritanical over Folua, but over looking what's gone on in the recent past

My view directly addresses this, I'm not sure what else you want me to say. 

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My view directly addresses this, I'm not sure what else you want me to say. 

What about giving Folua a fair go, as he didn't break any laws. He didn't beat up a student.

 

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5 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Would you expect no repercussions for expressing it? None whatsoever?

Perhaps, as i did, he would expect a lot of people to disagree and would have said so.


“The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.”  Eleanor Roosevelt

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3 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

What about giving Folua a fair go, as he didn't break any laws. He didn't beat up a student.

 

Plenty of people lose jobs or wont be employed without doing those two things. 

Put it this way, if I spouted his views on my social media, I'd risk getting sacked and could have trouble getting a new job with another bank. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Plenty of people lose jobs or wont be employed without doing those two things. 

Put it this way, if I spouted his views on my social media, I'd risk getting sacked and could have trouble getting a new job with another bank. 

Isn't that just your choice though to put your job before any strong held belief you hold?

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"Super League has voted unanimously to have "greater authority" to stop future "controversial signings" such as Israel Folau"

Unless he keeps his opinions to himself and becomes the best player in the league..... then Wigan can sign him ?

It's a tough one....... he's expressed some very offensive views publicly but do we hold that against him forever?

It's currently illegal to be homosexual in Tonga........ do we kick all the Tongans out?

Personally his comments made me feel a little sorry for him rather than angry........ no one in their right mind believes the rubbish he said.

But then we all hold different beliefs and ideas....... most of us don't put them on Instagram.


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Just now, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

Isn't that just your choice though to put your job before any strong held belief you hold?

Yes. I'm not sure of the point. Folau chose the opposite approach, one that has repercussions.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

All those who refer to other examples of bad behaviour miss the point spectacularly. 

As a sport it is right we offer 2nd and 3rd chances etc. People are fallible. They make mistakes, they get in trouble, drink, fight, commit crimes etc. We shouldn't throw people on the scrap heap and we should be proud of offering opportunities for people to rebuild their lives. 

But, there is a big difference. In literally every other case, we start with some level of remorse. We start with an apology, punishment, and maybe things like community work etc. All players who make these mistakes are genuine about trying to rebuild lives and not make these bad choices again. 

Folau does not fall in this camp. He has played the victim, and has bemoaned his treatment as an attack on his religious freedom. He has the same views, and is literally keeping his mouth shut because we are paying him to do so. He has a high chance of repeating this behaviour and he is not looking for ant kind of redemption. He can not redeem himself here as he is not trying to. He is not after a 2nd chance. 

How can he get involved in Catalans community work? How can he work with kids, or go into schools? 

I am happy for people who have done far worse offenders to be given a chance to rebuild their life, as a society we should support redemption. Folau isn't interested in that. 

Sorry Dave I have to disagree - using examples of others in a case like this is surely just people looking for precedent? 

I'm completely in agreement we should offer 2nd/3rd chances to people but I struggle to get onboard with the idea that Folau is somehow worse than some of the others that have gone before simply because they apologised and he hasn't. I mean what Folau did wasn't even deemed a criminal offence so surely from the outset that makes it less serious than some other misdemeanours? Which leads me on to my next point - if he has committed no crime then what should he be remorseful for, offending people? Some comedians have said much worse but that's ok because they say it in the context of a joke - is saying it with religious context any different or worse? 

I think you're being massively OTT with your comments about him being unable to work in the community and/or with kids - again we as a game allow actual criminals to do this but you deem Folau worse because he hasn't said sorry? 

Always feel the need to caveat on a personal level I find Folau's (and all religious beliefs to be honest) completely ridiculous but the way he is being vilified is out of sync with his actions IMO. The best we can do as a sport is continue to be pro LGBT+ and less anti Folau - thinking the latter infers the former is ill judged. 

 

Edited by hunsletgreenandgold
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The NFL have gone down the route since they decided that they would take on the role of moral arbiter and have had a nightmare ever since and the NRL are on the same path. 

It would be a huuuuggee mistake for the SL to become a type of morality police deciding who can play and who can not. Especially when there has been no crime committed. 

It would open up a huge can of legal proceedings against the league. 

Excuse the wording but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

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11 hours ago, dboy said:

Hudgell said "Oops".

"International rugby league star Shaun Kenny-Dowall has been charged with 10 domestic violence offences over the alleged repeated abuse of his former partner.

The 28-year-old was charged with stalking, intimidating, destroying or damaging property, assault occasioning actual bodily harm and six counts of assault, according to a NSW Police statement."

Yeah but moral outrage on Instagram!! 

 

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11 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It is an impossible line to define.

How on earth can you possibly try and compare someone's deeply held beliefs which contradict the stated inclusivity of the sport on the one hand with a player convicted of domestic assault on the other.

No, the only thing you can do is judge each situation on it's own merits and dispense with the moral relativism that comes with whataboutism. 

So we are not inclusive of women, as we couldn't care less if you abuse women. 

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So i take it from now on that Super League clubs will no longer be signing players from the NRL who been women beaters, gay beaters, drug cheats, people caught drunk driving and who have made homophobic comments?

Also as well its reassuring that in future Super League clubs will sack their own players who beat up women, beat up gay men and women, get caught with drugs, fail drug teats and people who are caught drunk driving or found drunk and disorderly.

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7 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Sorry Dave I have to disagree - using examples of others in a case like this is surely just people looking for precedent? 

I'm completely in agreement we should offer 2nd/3rd chances to people but I struggle to get onboard with the idea that Folau is somehow worse than some of the others that have gone before simply because they apologised and he hasn't. I mean what Folau did wasn't even deemed a criminal offence so surely from the outset that makes it less serious than some other misdemeanours? Which leads me on to my next point - if he has committed no crime then what should he be remorseful for, offending people? Some comedians have said much worse but that's ok because they say it in the context of a joke - is saying it with religious context any different or worse? 

I think you're being massively OTT with your comments about him being unable to work in the community and/or with kids - again we as a game allow actual criminals to do this but you deem Folau worse because he hasn't said sorry? 

Always feel the need to caveat on a personal level I find Folau's (and all religious beliefs to be honest) completely ridiculous but the way he is being vilified is out of sync with his actions IMO. The best we can do as a sport is continue to be pro LGBT+ and less anti Folau - thinking the latter infers the former is ill judged. 

 

If we are looking for a precedent, then it ends when all other examples show a level of remorse that it not there with Folau. That has to be the starting point with any player being given a 2nd chance.

People lose their jobs all the time for non-illegal activity, I'm not sure why people keep talking about things being illegal. It is not relevant. 

Your comedian point is, with respect, silly. Of course context is important. One is joking to get laughs, sometimes done through faux shock. People understand that it isn't necessarily their views and don't take it seriously. That is the point of comedy. Folau spouting this stuff to his hundreds of thousands of followers is not the same at all. 

If Catalans are working with the local LGBTQ+ groups, would it make sense for Folau to be there? If they are going into schools, where some young people may be struggling with their sexuality, should Folau be there. Absolutely not. I am uncomfortable with the use of some other players in schools etc just because they are good with a Rugby ball too, but the majority aren't attacking you as a person telling you you are going to hell. 

Personally I am happy that Rugby Australia parted company with him, and disappointed that Catalans have gone for him.

Also to caveat, as per my other posts, I don't think we as a sport should be banning people. Clubs should live or die by their decisions, and Catalans are getting plenty of bad press for this, it is up to them to decide if the playing value is worth the criticism.

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3 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

So we are not inclusive of women, as we couldn't care less if you abuse women. 

How on earth did you get to that from my post?

I said treat each case on it's own merit and don't try to find some way to put these things into a relative order or seriousness. 

For absolute clarity. I feel that anyone convicted or shown to have abused women has no place in our sport.

I am comfortable with giving people a second chance but repeat offenders should be excluded from our sport.

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11 hours ago, dboy said:

Hudgell said "Oops".

"International rugby league star Shaun Kenny-Dowall has been charged with 10 domestic violence offences over the alleged repeated abuse of his former partner.

The 28-year-old was charged with stalking, intimidating, destroying or damaging property, assault occasioning actual bodily harm and six counts of assault, according to a NSW Police statement."

Surely now under the new moral rules that Hudgell and others have just introduced he should be sacked by HKR shouldn't he?

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so judging by this new 11 page thread folau mustve said something new since last week? or have people changed their opinions since then?

surely they arent just repeating the same stuff again and again and again from last week

?

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Also to caveat, as per my other posts, I don't think we as a sport should be banning people. Clubs should live or die by their decisions, and Catalans are getting plenty of bad press for this, it is up to them to decide if the playing value is worth the criticism.

This is 100% the issue - and the reason why the rest of the game can feel aggrieved/have an opinion as they are included by association.

Catalans have decided that his playing value (and 200k contract) is worth going for a player most weren't willing to touch with a 15ft barge pole because of the bad press. I personally doubt it's worth it but its not up to me to decide.

There's also the issue of the image of SL that Michael Carter has brought up. We appear to becoming a "bad boys home" for people's last resort. We don't want that.

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1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

so judging by this new 11 page thread folau mustve said something new since last week? or have people changed their opinions since then?

surely they arent just repeating the same stuff again and again and again from last week

?

TBH, as long as the debate is respectful and not breaking any rules, and this one has been debated robustly but respectfully I'm not sure why it would be deemed something we can't talk about. Particularly as it is still being covered on Sky Sports and even on Total RL's site. 

The new development is the SL approach (of which nothing has actually been released!).

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Folau isn't going to apologise for something he genuinely believes his he.........Would we be happier if he issued a public apology he clearly didn't mean?

Personally I was more shocked when they signed Greg Bird after he glassed his girlfriend.

As long as he doesn't say anything else and is respectful of the game I say let it go.

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1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

so judging by this new 11 page thread folau mustve said something new since last week? or have people changed their opinions since then?

surely they arent just repeating the same stuff again and again and again from last week

?

There has been developments though. The clubs have had a meeting over the issue, a letter has been sent threatening the prospect of legal action (unlikely but still a development), the Catalans kit manufacturer has distanced themselves from the player and its been big news for the past week. Ironically League getting a bit more press than the 6 nations!

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I do feel that one other thing that has been ignored is the fact that there is a process and system in place for every other offence we have talked about. 

If people take drugs, we have the drugs policies that take care of that.

If people break the law, we adhere to the justice system.

If people offend on the pitch, we have a judiciary panel.

If people offend whilst employed by clubs, we have contracts and employment law. 

This is an area that isn't covered by the traditional policies and processes in place. This is us catching up with most other places, who don't allow for hate speech on social media. It seems that Rugby Union Australia were caught out by not having robust guidelines in place.

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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

There has been developments though. The clubs have had a meeting over the issue, a letter has been sent threatening the prospect of legal action (unlikely but still a development), the Catalans kit manufacturer has distanced themselves from the player and its been big news for the past week. Ironically League getting a bit more press than the 6 nations!

people are repeating the same arguments as folau a week ago.  if i was that bored i would cut and paste a few of my posts on there and put them here, and they would fit in.

we need to move on about whether folau should or shouldnt be allowed to play.

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1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

people are repeating the same arguments as folau a week ago.  if i was that bored i would cut and paste a few of my posts on there and put them here, and they would fit in.

we need to move on about whether folau should or shouldnt be allowed to play.

That totally ignores the developments that have happened.

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