Israel Folau (Merged threads)

[Mr Plow]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

All those who refer to other examples of bad behaviour miss the point spectacularly. 

As a sport it is right we offer 2nd and 3rd chances etc. People are fallible. They make mistakes, they get in trouble, drink, fight, commit crimes etc. We shouldn't throw people on the scrap heap and we should be proud of offering opportunities for people to rebuild their lives. 

But, there is a big difference. In literally every other case, we start with some level of remorse. We start with an apology, punishment, and maybe things like community work etc. All players who make these mistakes are genuine about trying to rebuild lives and not make these bad choices again. 

Folau does not fall in this camp. He has played the victim, and has bemoaned his treatment as an attack on his religious freedom. He has the same views, and is literally keeping his mouth shut because we are paying him to do so. He has a high chance of repeating this behaviour and he is not looking for ant kind of redemption. He can not redeem himself here as he is not trying to. He is not after a 2nd chance. 

How can he get involved in Catalans community work? How can he work with kids, or go into schools? 

I am happy for people who have done far worse offenders to be given a chance to rebuild their life, as a society we should support redemption. Folau isn't interested in that. 

If he apologised for what he said and took the tweet down then maybe he could be given a chance to redeem his career, but like you say he’s not interested. And how many chances can you give someone? 
 

His views have no place in a modern, progressive and inclusive society and why should SL be a last chance saloon for players?

[Wiltshire Rhino]

15 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

His views have no place in a...

...inclusive society 

So exclusion of views is allowed in an inclusive society? 

[Mr Plow]

13 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

So exclusion of views is allowed in an inclusive society? 

This is where it starts to become complicated I suppose. I assume you think that homophobia in society is wrong? If so do you think we should be inclusive to someone with homophobic views who try’s to put his own bigoted religious views into others? 
 

What if a player is sent to the disciplinary for saying something homophobic in a game? The disciplinary panel do not have a leg to stand on. You can’t have double standards.

As I’ve said before if he apologises and takes the tweet down, then fair enough I’d let him play but he’s shown no remorse 

[TboneFromTO]

27 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

So exclusion of views is allowed in an inclusive society? 

Tolerance (and by extension inclusion) is a paradox in its self.

A tolerant society will eventually become intolerant unless they are intolerant of intolerant views.

For the signing, for now,he has not shown further intolerance since signing for Les drags  so play on! It's been made clear he's had a yellow and has served his time in the sin-bin, he knows another yellow and he's out.  Surely he will be on his best behaviour

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

All those who refer to other examples of bad behaviour miss the point spectacularly. 

As a sport it is right we offer 2nd and 3rd chances etc. People are fallible. They make mistakes, they get in trouble, drink, fight, commit crimes etc. We shouldn't throw people on the scrap heap and we should be proud of offering opportunities for people to rebuild their lives. 

But, there is a big difference. In literally every other case, we start with some level of remorse. We start with an apology, punishment, and maybe things like community work etc. All players who make these mistakes are genuine about trying to rebuild lives and not make these bad choices again. 

Folau does not fall in this camp. He has played the victim, and has bemoaned his treatment as an attack on his religious freedom. He has the same views, and is literally keeping his mouth shut because we are paying him to do so. He has a high chance of repeating this behaviour and he is not looking for ant kind of redemption. He can not redeem himself here as he is not trying to. He is not after a 2nd chance. 

How can he get involved in Catalans community work? How can he work with kids, or go into schools? 

I am happy for people who have done far worse offenders to be given a chance to rebuild their life, as a society we should support redemption. Folau isn't interested in that. 

How many chances has Zak Hardaker had?

[The Future is League]

10 hours ago, Moove said:

Apparently it's gone belly up already...

"In an email seen by the BBC, Neil Hudgell, owner of Hull Kingston Rovers, has threatened to sue his own club after becoming aware of Shaun Kenny-Dowall's previous indiscretions in Australia. In the email, Mr Hudgell expresses his disappointment that he did not consult with himself prior to the signing and also claims to have the support of the majority of SL clubs to veto the signing under new rules.

Ian Lenegan meanwhile has also weighed in to back Mr Hudgell in his campaign and, after initially considering signing Kenny-Dowall himself, has today announced that their fixture against Hull KR will be in support of a new 'Say No to Drugs' campaign. It is believed that Zak Hardaker will join Kenny-Dowall in wearing a special charity shirt for the occasion"

If Hudgell wasn't aware of SKD's past he must have been living in a cave. I give you Ben Cockayne as well.

Ian Lenegan's club have Zak Hardaker and signed him up despite his past.

To think that these two want to point the moral compass as other clubs is laughable.

[Boomer Bang Wool]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

All those who refer to other examples of bad behaviour miss the point spectacularly. 

As a sport it is right we offer 2nd and 3rd chances etc. People are fallible. They make mistakes, they get in trouble, drink, fight, commit crimes etc. We shouldn't throw people on the scrap heap and we should be proud of offering opportunities for people to rebuild their lives. 

But, there is a big difference. In literally every other case, we start with some level of remorse. We start with an apology, punishment, and maybe things like community work etc. All players who make these mistakes are genuine about trying to rebuild lives and not make these bad choices again. 

Folau does not fall in this camp. He has played the victim, and has bemoaned his treatment as an attack on his religious freedom. He has the same views, and is literally keeping his mouth shut because we are paying him to do so. He has a high chance of repeating this behaviour and he is not looking for ant kind of redemption. He can not redeem himself here as he is not trying to. He is not after a 2nd chance. 

How can he get involved in Catalans community work? How can he work with kids, or go into schools? 

I am happy for people who have done far worse offenders to be given a chance to rebuild their life, as a society we should support redemption. Folau isn't interested in that. 

Wrong 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

So because he still holds certain beliefs you think he shouldn't be unable to work within the community or with kids? 

Yes. If he believes gay people are going to hell (and happy to publicly tell them to repent), then I am pretty comfortable saying that he shouldn't be working with those communities.

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

How many chances has Zak Hardaker had?

What is the limit? He is clearly a troubled lad, but at what point do you throw him on the scrap-heap? He has shown remorse, he has been punished, he is trying to make things better. 

He has been banned from the game for some of his issues. 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Boomer Bang Wool said:

Wrong 

Thanks for your well reasoned response.

[nadera78]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

What is the limit? He is clearly a troubled lad, but at what point do you throw him on the scrap-heap? He has shown remorse, he has been punished, he is trying to make things better. 

He has been banned from the game for some of his issues. 

That's subjective though. Is Hardaker genuinely remorseful or just wanting another chance to play RL?

Banned for breaking the rules and/or the law. Folau has done neither.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

So exclusion of views is allowed in an inclusive society? 

What publicly championed views would it take to exclude a player from SL as not fitting in with the games morals?

That women are 2nd class citizens and should stay at home instead of watching the game?

That black people should have their own stands in grounds?

That Jews should be banned from RL?

 

[The Future is League]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What is the limit? He is clearly a troubled lad, but at what point do you throw him on the scrap-heap? He has shown remorse, he has been punished, he is trying to make things better. 

He has been banned from the game for some of his issues. 

And it is my opinion that its only a matter of time before he does something stupid again.

My point is though that Lenegan is acting all high and mighty and yet with him in charge of Wigan they signed Hardaker

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What is the limit? He is clearly a troubled lad, but at what point do you throw him on the scrap-heap? He has shown remorse, he has been punished, he is trying to make things better. 

He has been banned from the game for some of his issues. 

All stuff including ileagal that he did in this country as a RL player 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, nadera78 said:

That's subjective though. Is Hardaker genuinely remorseful or just wanting another chance to play RL?

Banned for breaking the rules and/or the law. Folau has done neither.

It isn't subjective. He has shown remorse. It is up to individuals to believe if he is genuine, but my life experience has shown me that even idiots that say, get involved in fights on nights out regret it and can genuinely apologise and be remorseful. It doesn't however mean they wont go on to sin again. 

Folau hasn't shown any remorse, fake or otherwise. He even took millions of dollars from donors to fight the case, and regularly complained about his religious liberties being attacked. This was after he doubled down on his views. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

And it is my opinion that its only a matter of time before he does something stupid again.

My point is though that Lenegan is acting all high and mighty and yet with him in charge of Wigan they signed Hardaker

Well my whole post was addressing this - that people should be given a 2nd chance, but that has to start with remorse.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

All stuff including ileagal that he did in this country as a RL player 

I'm not sure of the relevance at all. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

That's subjective though. Is Hardaker genuinely remorseful or just wanting another chance to play RL?

Banned for breaking the rules and/or the law. Folau has done neither.

Once again we need the ' thought police ' , it's like my de-radiclisation thread , how do you really know 

In truth Folau is and was being honest , just how honest have repeat offenders been when saying sorry after the first offence ?

[Dunbar]

Folau doesn't need to apologise for the beliefs he holds. He holds the same beliefs as many millions of people around the world.

He has also apologised for "any hurt or harm caused" which presumably refers to how he communicated his beliefs.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of the relevance at all. 

So it directly damaged the sport in this country , and again , and again 

I'm fine with telling Folau to leave , as long as we tell the rest , and no longer employ anybody else who has done anything unpleasant 

Work to do , nobody's paying me to discuss RL , unlike most on here right now

[aj1908]

cant wait for him to make his return to the game.  once he gets back into it the guy will be a star.  people should get over the past and let the guy have another chance.

i didnt realise we had so many politicians amongst us.  he is a rugby player, who really cares about his personal beliefs.

im sure we all have beliefs that other consider stupid.  who cares?  people need to get a grip on life

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What publicly championed views would it take to exclude a player from SL as not fitting in with the games morals?

That women are 2nd class citizens and should stay at home instead of watching the game?

That black people should have their own stands in grounds?

That Jews should be banned from RL?

 

Getting prosecuted for taking drugs 

Sacked , never given a contract again ever , done 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Folau doesn't need to apologise for the beliefs he holds. He holds the same beliefs as many millions of people around the world.

He has also apologised for "any hurt or harm caused" which presumably refers to how he communicated his beliefs.

He has also repeated his nonsense, and has fought it at every stage and complained about the attack on his religious freedom. It's not an apology if you are going to do the same thing again, and he knows he will do the same thing again (because he has already done it again). 

It's like me spouting some racist bile, and then saying at the end 'I apologise if anybody is offended by this' . That aint remorse. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So it directly damaged the sport in this country , and again , and again 

I'm fine with telling Folau to leave , as long as we tell the rest , and no longer employ anybody else who has done anything unpleasant 

Work to do , nobody's paying me to discuss RL , unlike most on here right now

This basic justice system doesn't work anywhere in the world, inside or outside of sport.  It's an odd proposal.

[Lowdesert]

Super League intention to control these matters more is further taking away the responsibilities of the RFL.  Those responsibilities are diminishing by the season.