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Israel Folau (Merged threads)

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Your point has no point.

Yes, Folau's profile means RL is more exposed than if it was Kershaw of Wakefield.

How does this affect how the game decides to deal with IF?

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This thread is a whataboutathon!

Indeed , I'm done , it's bloody daft 

And Love Islands on ?

Edited by GUBRATS

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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This thread is a whataboutathon!

It really isn't.

It's about who draws the line about what is morally acceptable (not legally or criminally - IF has been convicted of nothing), and where is that line drawn.

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I'm sure we can all look excitedly ahead to 22nd of April, when a current SL winger goes on trial at Leeds Crown Court.

Innocent until proven guilty of course, but by 'eck those moral compasses will be spinning.

Let's see if Hudgell/Elstone et al raise their heads then.

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26 minutes ago, headtackle said:

How is this new veto going to work ? Anyone seen the detail ?

From what I have heard SL clubs can veto another clubs signing if they think it will damage the league

On that basis we would probably have missed out seeing Ben Barba. Also doesn't that set club against club and will lead to some interesting conflicts.  

Apparently it's gone belly up already...

"In an email seen by the BBC, Neil Hudgell, owner of Hull Kingston Rovers, has threatened to sue his own club after becoming aware of Shaun Kenny-Dowall's previous indiscretions in Australia. In the email, Mr Hudgell expresses his disappointment that he did not consult with himself prior to the signing and also claims to have the support of the majority of SL clubs to veto the signing under new rules.

Ian Lenegan meanwhile has also weighed in to back Mr Hudgell in his campaign and, after initially considering signing Kenny-Dowall himself, has today announced that their fixture against Hull KR will be in support of a new 'Say No to Drugs' campaign. It is believed that Zak Hardaker will join Kenny-Dowall in wearing a special charity shirt for the occasion"

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Hudgell said "Oops".

"International rugby league star Shaun Kenny-Dowall has been charged with 10 domestic violence offences over the alleged repeated abuse of his former partner.

The 28-year-old was charged with stalking, intimidating, destroying or damaging property, assault occasioning actual bodily harm and six counts of assault, according to a NSW Police statement."

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21 minutes ago, dboy said:

It really isn't.

It's about who draws the line about what is morally acceptable (not legally or criminally - IF has been convicted of nothing), and where is that line drawn.

It is an impossible line to define.

How on earth can you possibly try and compare someone's deeply held beliefs which contradict the stated inclusivity of the sport on the one hand with a player convicted of domestic assault on the other.

No, the only thing you can do is judge each situation on it's own merits and dispense with the moral relativism that comes with whataboutism. 

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3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It's not splitting hairs at all Harry.  Lot's of Rugby players (Union and League) are devout Christians and, as Folau does, many of them will clearly believe in the literal word of the bible and its views on homosexuality.

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that it is not what Folau believes that is the issue but how he expressed it... otherwise why is there a fuss about Folau and not any of the other Christian players.

Yes, the comments were expressing his beliefs and it was the expression that was the problem, not the beliefs themselves.

 

It's OK to have Christian beliefs but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe meat is murder but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe in women's rights but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe that homosexuality is normal but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to vote Conservative but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe Rugby League is the superior code but don't express those beliefs 


2014 Challenged Cup Winner

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2 hours ago, LR23 said:

I mean where do you start with that article- it’s borderline condescending, probably insulting to some Tongans and worst of all poorly researched. I mean a quick Google search or look on these forums would tell you that IF has expressed his views in more than a sole Instagram post. Nice job offering an excuse for him as well (he was offering those poor homosexuals redemption apparently).
 

The mind boggles with some of Sadler’s blinkered views these days. 

Where do I start with your response to my article?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'borderline condescending'.

Of course I am not 'probably insulting to some Tongans'.

What do you mean by 'poorly researched'?

I'm well aware that Folau has expressed his views more than once, but I was referring to the reason he was sacked by Rugby Australlia, which was because of his Instagram post last April.

I don't mind criticism, but I prefer it to be well founded, not based on misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I'm saying.

I'm not offering an excuse for him, but suggesting that all religious people believe that by following the tenets of their faith they will be saved in the afterlife and the rest of us won't be. That is why many faiths are evangelical, trying to warn us off those habits that conflict with what they believe in.

My mind boggles with how someone like you can read something and just not get it, either deliberately or simply because your prejudices won't allow you to weigh the arguments in your mind.

Your response isn't so much blinkered as wilfully blind.

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6 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

What if his religious belief was that all black men would go to hell?

He should be as free to express it as I am, and hope always to be, to disagree, in this (to date and predominantly) enlightened country.

Edited by Honor James

“The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.”  Eleanor Roosevelt

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3 hours ago, LR23 said:

I mean where do you start with that article- it’s borderline condescending, probably insulting to some Tongans and worst of all poorly researched. I mean a quick Google search or look on these forums would tell you that IF has expressed his views in more than a sole Instagram post. Nice job offering an excuse for him as well (he was offering those poor homosexuals redemption apparently).
 

The mind boggles with some of Sadler’s blinkered views these days. 

Oddly enough, however, the right in a free country to express our own thoughts and beliefs, as we here do and are doing - mostly without thought or question - does not restrict us to expressing any one belief or opinion only once and once only.

I frequently read opinions on this website which I think are at best weird (and at worst downright ridiculous) but that is only my opinion, and no matter how sure I am that I am right, I will defend at the ballot box till I die, your right equally to hold and openly express your views and beliefs.

The right also, as I have already said, of Israel Falau to hold and express his. no matter how far they differ from my own or those of anyone else on this forum.

To do otherwise would make me a pathetic, wannabe, petty dictator.

Edited by Honor James
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“The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.”  Eleanor Roosevelt

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And now the SL clubs have a gentleman's agreement to have a discussion on whether signings should be allowed. What would happen if he fancied me Nana's Sunday tea and wanted to play for Fev? 

The RFL at the outset should have said that we're an open and inclusive sport. Whilst we don't agree with Folau's comment, he hasn't broken any laws so he has the right to play our sport. At the same time, use it to actively promote what we do in terms of pride etc, we are indeed an open sport etc etc

 

 

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This is all making the game look very bad. Blacklisting people due to religious beliefs is ludicrous. Folau is not inciting violence against anyone. Those who feel Folau's beliefs are wrong have nothing to fear from his comments because they aren't going to become true.

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3 hours ago, Honor James said:

He should be as free to express it as I am, and hope always to be, to disagree, in this (to date and predominantly) enlightened country.

Would you expect no repercussions for expressing it? None whatsoever?

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1 hour ago, eal said:

This is all making the game look very bad. Blacklisting people due to religious beliefs is ludicrous. Folau is not inciting violence against anyone. Those who feel Folau's beliefs are wrong have nothing to fear from his comments because they aren't going to become true.

Being an elite athlete for an organisation is also a marketing role. You have to produce the goods both in marketing and on the field in accordance with your employer’s aims.
 

If the athlete’s marketing is threatening income and they refuse to change, it’s farewell to the juicy contract.

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6 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

It's OK to have Christian beliefs but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe meat is murder but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe in women's rights but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe that homosexuality is normal but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to vote Conservative but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe Rugby League is the superior code but don't express those beliefs 

I said 'how' he expressed them. A word you seem to have missed out in your 6 scenarios here.

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26 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I said 'how' he expressed them. A word you seem to have missed out in your 6 scenarios here.

The word "how" is open to interpretation on his intent. To really know the intent behind any statement, you'll need to bring in the Thought Police. 

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino

2014 Challenged Cup Winner

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6 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

The word "how" is open to interpretation on his intent. To really know the intent behind any statement, you'll need to bring in the Thought Police. 

No, the 'how' is easy... that was his Instagram post and how he presented the message. 

What you are moving on to with question of his intent is the 'why'.

Anyway. It's pretty clear logic. Many Rugby players are Christiana and it is safe to assume that a lot of them believe what Falou believes about homosexuality as stated in the bible.

So what is different about Folau and all the others? How he expressed those beliefs.

If he had expressed those beliefs in a less provocative and confrontational way we would not be here today.

Look, I am not questioning his right to express his beliefs or his right to express them the way he wants to. But, as all of us do, you have to balance what you say and how you say it with your environment and the principles and values of your community and your employers.  Folau didn't do this and this is the fall out.

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

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4 hours ago, MattSantos said:

And now the SL clubs have a gentleman's agreement to have a discussion on whether signings should be allowed. What would happen if he fancied me Nana's Sunday tea and wanted to play for Fev? 

The RFL at the outset should have said that we're an open and inclusive sport. Whilst we don't agree with Folau's comment, he hasn't broken any laws so he has the right to play our sport. At the same time, use it to actively promote what we do in terms of pride etc, we are indeed an open sport etc etc

 

 

Some respect please. The correct Samoan spelling is Nanais Sundai'ti.

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17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

No, the 'how' is easy... that was his Instagram post and how he presented the message. 

What you are moving on to with question of his intent is the 'why'.

Anyway. It's pretty clear logic. Many Rugby players are Christiana and it is safe to assume that a lot of them believe what Falou believes about homosexuality as stated in the bible.

So what is different about Folau and all the others? How he expressed those beliefs.

If he had expressed those beliefs in a less provocative and confrontational way we would not be here today.

Look, I am not questioning his right to express his beliefs or his right to express them the way he wants to. But, as all of us do, you have to balance what you say and how you say it with your environment and the principles and values of your community and your employers.  Folau didn't do this and this is the fall out.

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

Which he did in Australia , while employed in a different sport 

He has been made fully aware of what will happen if he does it in the UK controlled sport of SL 

 

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36 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

 

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

How you "say" things is difficult online. There's no inflection, emphasis on words. The scripture quote could mean that Falou was concerned that people are going to hell and he wants to help save them. Or it could mean he's a homophobic bigot (forgetting all the other groups in the post). Or somewhere in between. The problem is this is decided by the reader, who may not be right in the interpretation of the reason why it was posted. 

To be fair, even saying it out loud with inflection and emphasis, someone still might misinterpret the intent. 

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino
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I have avoided all comments on this subject due to where it ends up. Israel Folau has signed up for a club without breaking any law or the Catalan club breaking any rules. If SL want to become Big Brother, that doesn’t affect what has happened as of now,

I hope that Folau goes to games and is shown the courtesy a civilised society is based on. Let’s see how he conducts himself in SL. If he says no more and gets on with the game, SL will be benefitted from what he has to offer. If you think someone is intolerant, show then what tolerance and respect is.

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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