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Sports Prophet

All Stars...

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11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I wasn't talking about a fixture between these two teams, I was referring to two different selection policies.

But the players for BOTH teams will still be selected using the criteria of Indigenous for one team and "The rest" for the other.

 

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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1 minute ago, RL does what Sky says said:

But the players for BOTH teams will still be selected using the criteria of Indigenous for one team and "The rest" for the other.

 

Ok, let me try to be as clear as possible.

Scenario 1. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the Indigenous population of Australia.

Scenario 2. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the population of Australia with the exception of the Indigenous players who are not considered for selection.

Do you think both of these two policies are the same and are both ok?

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Ok, let me try to be as clear as possible.

Scenario 1. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the Indigenous population of Australia.

Scenario 2. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the population of Australia with the exception of the Indigenous players who are not considered for selection.

Do you think both of these two policies are the same and are both ok?

You’re wasting your time.

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4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

You’re wasting your time.

Yes, I suspect that I am.

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Dunno why this thread took such an odd white genocide nonsense turn but I'd like to see an all stars game over here

Bit of an exhibition but also a short cut to highlighting quality players. We need more award and recognition in the game imo

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10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Ok, let me try to be as clear as possible.

Scenario 1. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the Indigenous population of Australia.

Scenario 2. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the population of Australia with the exception of the Indigenous players who are not considered for selection.

Do you think both of these two policies are the same and are both ok?

Yes.

Again you are putting your own spin on the subject and including  "population of Australia" when I never said that.

I said "the rest" is Any player who does not qualify for the Indigenous team whether they be Australian, German, Catholic, black or any other social group you can name.

 

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8 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Yes.

Again you are putting your own spin on the subject and including  "population of Australia" when I never said that.

I said "the rest" is Any player who does not qualify for the Indigenous team whether they be Australian, German, Catholic, black or any other social group you can name.

 

What do you mean I am putting my own spin on it.

An hour ago, you picked up on a point I made to another poster and I have been patiently trying to explain that point to you ever since.

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17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

What do you mean I am putting my own spin on it.

An hour ago, you picked up on a point I made to another poster and I have been patiently trying to explain that point to you ever since.

When did I say a non-indigenous team was only to include Australians ? Yet you have just include that phrase ... That was putting your own spin on it.

If the Indigenous team pick ONLY such players then how can "The Rest" be discriminatory as it means any other player is available for selection ?

Unless you want ONLY Indigenous players to be selected for their team and then have those not chosen to still be OK to play for the other.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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16 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

When did I say a non-indigenous team was only to include Australians ? Yet you have just include that phrase ... That was putting your own spin on it.

If the Indigenous team pick ONLY such players then how can "The Rest" be discriminatory as it means any other player is available for selection ?

Unless you want ONLY Indigenous players to be selected for their team and then have those not chosen to still be OK to play for the other.

We are clearly on different wavelengths here.  I have tried to explain my point as clearly as I can but you still don't get it.

I accept that I may be explaining it badly and so it isn't a slight on you.

Whatever the case is, it is time to give up.

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8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

We are clearly on different wavelengths here.  I have tried to explain my point as clearly as I can but you still don't get it.

I accept that I may be explaining it badly and so it isn't a slight on you.

Whatever the case is, it is time to give up.

Vice versa in you not getting mine.

Anyway, that's what this forum is about.

I just wish more could take a lesson from you to give and accept opinions, as you do,  without resorting to insults.

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with many of your underlying principles in this post and I am not a fan of 'identity politics' which is becoming more and more prevalent which I believe is divisive and dangerous.  Does the Indigenous game perpetuate the divisions in Australian culture or does it celebrate the native populations heritage?  If the former it is dangerous and if the latter it is fine... of course, the answer as always is that it is somewhere in between.

The Indigenous All Stars are a relatively minor example amongst much more egregious ones, but it definitely perpetuates the divisions in Australian society in a pernicious way.

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I do take exception to your description of my 'rank hypocrisy' though.  You cite the case where if the roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams it would be described as racist.

However, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, whether you agree with the Indigenous teams or not, there is a massive difference between a team that represents (or celebrates) a specific culture and one which states that certain individual or specific racial or ethnic groups cannot be selected.

I do not believe I am a hypocrite for pointing out this obvious difference.

Firstly, you can celebrate culture without discriminating against people. I also don't accept that culture is the key point here. If this was about culture it'd just be people sharing and enjoying culture, not people literally having to prove their ancestry to participate...

Secondly, the only difference between a team that represents a specific race/ethnicity at the exclusion of others and one that states that people of a certain race/ethnicity can't participate are the people that are being discriminated against. 

Both are discriminating based on immutable characteristics, it's just who they are discriminating against and why they are discriminating that is different.

Your celebrates the culture stuff is just mental gymnastics to try justify a position you wouldn't normally hold.

Finally, you can take exception to being described as a hypocrite all you like, but you are condoning people engaging in behaviour that you would normally criticise others for participating in, and that my friend is a form of hypocrisy.

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27 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Finally, you can take exception to being described as a hypocrite all you like, but you are condoning people engaging in behaviour that you would normally criticise others for participating in, and that my friend is a form of hypocrisy.

I have stated that I believe there is a significant difference between a team such as the All Stars with a specific group being represented and the idea that a group be excluded from wider a participation based on their characteristics.

Seeing as though you are so intent in calling me a hypocrite, can I ask you to provide me with an example of the behaviour that "I would normally criticise" that is analogous to supporting the concept of the Indigenous team.

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I think a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between having an Indigenous team or a Maori team, is that in these instances they tend to be the "dominated" culture, and the other heritage is the "winner", they are experiencing their culture 24/7 365 days of the year, whereas a lot of people that have their heritage in roots like the Indigenous and Maori don't experience it and don't live in it. They have events that celebrate it to bring it to the new generations that don't know where they come from.

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Guys it's a game to pay homage to aboriginal players and their contribution to the game.

Unlike afl league has a very good record in this regard 

If you are interested Google racism in the afl.  Adam goodes was booed for years and I mean for the whole game.  He was basically forced out of the afl

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9 hours ago, Click said:

I think a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between having an Indigenous team or a Maori team, is that in these instances they tend to be the "dominated" culture, and the other heritage is the "winner", they are experiencing their culture 24/7 365 days of the year, whereas a lot of people that have their heritage in roots like the Indigenous and Maori don't experience it and don't live in it. They have events that celebrate it to bring it to the new generations that don't know where they come from.

That still isn't an excuse to discriminate against people!

You can celebrate culture and bring it to new generations without it being necessary to discriminate against other people.

I mean Jesus, this isn't hard.

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30 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

That still isn't an excuse to discriminate against people!

You can celebrate culture and bring it to new generations without it being necessary to discriminate against other people.

I mean Jesus, this isn't hard.

Dont be ridiculous, having an indigenous team is no more discriminatory than having a queensland team

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43 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

That still isn't an excuse to discriminate against people!

You can celebrate culture and bring it to new generations without it being necessary to discriminate against other people.

I mean Jesus, this isn't hard.

The victimhood never ceases to amaze me at times. No one is being discriminated against.

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Dont be ridiculous, having an indigenous team is no more discriminatory than having a queensland team

I agree ... and which helps to explain my point earlier in the thread in that if a Queensland team was selected to play a team of "The Rest" (ie: any player who is not from Queensland) then would that be any different than an Indigenous team playing against "The Rest" (ie any player who is not indigenous)?

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Dont be ridiculous, having an indigenous team is no more discriminatory than having a queensland team

it depends if you see positive discrimination as discrimination.  some would say yes, others no.

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7 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

it depends if you see positive discrimination as discrimination.  some would say yes, others no.

It's just if one group claim discrimination then they shouldn''t also expect positive discrimination ... but some seemingly do.

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4 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

It's just if one group claim discrimination then they shouldn''t also expect positive discrimination ... but some seemingly do.

I can see both sides 

It's just I love aboriginal players 

E.g. peachy Campbell and Blacklock

And the game has such a proud history with them unlike our biggest rival the afl

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7 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

I can see both sides 

It's just I love aboriginal players 

E.g. peachy Campbell and Blacklock

And the game has such a proud history with them unlike our biggest rival the afl

Yes I am not against have a purely Indigenous team who are representing their culture ... but other teams should therefore not be branded as discriminatory if they purely represent other cultures (ie players who are descended from immigrants and are not indigenous).

 

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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3 hours ago, aj1908 said:

it depends if you see positive discrimination as discrimination.  some would say yes, others no.

It's not positive or negative discrimination. It's not discrimination in any sense of the word.

I'm neither indigenous, nor queenslander both exclude me, neither discriminate against me anymore than the NBA hall of fame discriminates against me for not being a legendary basketball player.

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The argument for discrimination is "if people of indigenous decent can have a representative team to celebrate their culture, why can't those of Western European decent have their own representative team"

Of course this argument only stands up for those people with absolutely zero cultural sensitivity or common sense.

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