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17 hours ago, Copa said:

Good stuff... you made me think about Australian music from 30 to 40 years ago and I'm now listening to Bachelors From Prague on Spotify...

After the Go-Betweens came up earlier in this thread, I excavated their 80s records. I knew I was a big fan, with one of their albums in my all-time top ten since the day I bought it. Playing the rest through a few times made me realise they were even better than I remembered.

Don`t recall much about Bachelors from Prague. Maybe a bit Jazz-Funk/Film Theme/ Loungecore? There was a Massachusettes group called Morphine doing something similar in the 90s, albeit with only saxophones for a brass section. Which allows me to crowbar in the fun fact that the Nazis, along with banning RL in France, also made the saxophone verboten. It must have irked their Germanic artistic sensibilities - no saxophones in Wagnerian opera.

Continuing on a useless information theme, I pedantically used "group" there, rather than "band". When Jazz performers were streamlined they were labelled "groups" to distinguish them from the more densely populated "bands". This term held though the Chicago blues groups of the 50s, and into the 60s with the Beat groups. It was the Rolling Stones who started rhetorically calling themselves a "Rock `n` Roll Band", and unfortunately it stuck.

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Came across a story about a newly formed Japanese club on the Asia Pacific site. The following is from the club`s own website -

"Established in 2020, the Abiko Ducks are a Rugby League and Tag Football club based in Abiko City, Chiba, Japan. The Ducks host weekly Tag Football clinics at Teganuma Park in Abiko City. With a community first attitude, a wide range of supporters and sponsors have joined the Ducks family. Come and join the Quack Pack."

The "wide range" claim may be a touch bold at this early stage. However, this story crystallizes much of the substance of this whole thread. Combining Tackle and Tag has to be the blueprint for sustainably setting up new clubs. Or for that matter, ensuring the health of older ones.

 

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On 07/09/2020 at 14:39, unapologetic pedant said:

Everyone involved in a development area would do well to look at Illawarra, Newcastle, Central Coast and a few other NSW Country groups to see how LLT is integrated in the clubs and their gameday schedule. The benefits in increased participation and memberships have been substantial

 

On 07/09/2020 at 15:24, unapologetic pedant said:

Needless to say I strongly agree with all of this. The phrase highlighted on the thread about code wars bears repeating. - "Those who play the game are many more times likely to attend, buy merchandise, and otherwise support the game".

If an RL governing body accept this truth, when they combine it with another truth that not enough people will ever be willing to play Tackle RL, it should lead them to the conclusion that putting all their eggs in the Tackle basket is destined to fail, in terms of building a fanbase.

These two quotes deserve rereading in the context of the " Adult Participation in Sports Survey ".

BTW,  LLT is Ladies League Tag, 13 a side, full sized pitch all the rules of Tackle League but no tackle.

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3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

These two quotes deserve rereading in the context of the " Adult Participation in Sports Survey ".

BTW,  LLT is Ladies League Tag, 13 a side, full sized pitch all the rules of Tackle League but no tackle.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, the number of players in a League Tag side from 13 years grade through to open age is 11.

When you mentioned running a League Tag comp alongside next year`s WC, I wasn`t so sure. Mainly due to the costs, and that it could get lost amid the 3 concurrent WCs (men`s, women`s, wheelchair) already scheduled. Plus there`s the question would it be men`s or women`s. And there`s a well-established separate Oztag/TRL WC.

On reflection, I think you`re right. There could have been a 4 team comp - England, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand. Surely the cost of that wouldn`t be too high. The Aussies would be favourites, but all 4 nations should be competitive, given that they are in Oztag/TRL. 

A major problem in our international Tackle game is its stratification and the unbridgeable gaps between the strata. Establishing systems in Serbia or Greece that can produce players able to compete with the French, let alone with Aus/Eng/NZ, is virtually impossible when the playing pool is so initially restricted by the physically demanding nature of the game.

Seeing an Irish League Tag team, made up of actual Irish people, holding their own at a RLWC event would highlight the development potential. Without the deterrent effects of tackling, a nascent RL nation can grow their participation rates much faster. Thus in a few short years their standards improve and they can realistically attempt to compete against the best. All the while raising the general profile of the game of Rugby League. This would take decades or forever with just the Tackle game.

Edited by unapologetic pedant
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Bringing Touch, Tag and any other variations of the code into the 'Rugby League' framework makes sense on so many levels.

Firstly, just because the rules of touch and tag are different from tackle, doesn't mean there aren't potential players in that talent pool which couldn't be future Super League players. 

Secondly, participants are worth their weight in gold for our sport. They help add depth to our clubs, help maximize use of our venues, help us attract government funding, attract sponsors and give us a marketing database. 

Thirdly, it gives us another way for us to crack into new markets and expand the game.

There is a reason why the NRL is partnering and trying to take over Touch, why the FFRXIII partnered with Touch France, why the HKRL introduced HKTag and why the RFL did partner with Try Tag Rugby, because of these benefits.

It's why we should be looking at this from a World Cup and IRL level, and setting the tone globally that these are variances of our sport, not a different sport.

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On 31/12/2020 at 01:23, unapologetic pedant said:

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, the number of players in a League Tag side from 13 years grade through to open age is 11.

When you mentioned running a League Tag comp alongside next year`s WC, I wasn`t so sure. Mainly due to the costs, and that it could get lost amid the 3 concurrent WCs (men`s, women`s, wheelchair) already scheduled. Plus there`s the question would it be men`s or women`s. And there`s a well-established separate Oztag/TRL WC.

On reflection, I think you`re right. There could have been a 4 team comp - England, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand. Surely the cost of that wouldn`t be too high. The Aussies would be favourites, but all 4 nations should be competitive, given that they are in Oztag/TRL. 

A major problem in our international Tackle game is its stratification and the unbridgeable gaps between the strata. Establishing systems in Serbia or Greece that can produce players able to compete with the French, let alone with Aus/Eng/NZ, is virtually impossible when the playing pool is so initially restricted by the physically demanding nature of the game.

Seeing an Irish League Tag team, made up of actual Irish people, holding their own at a RLWC event would highlight the development potential. Without the deterrent effects of tackling, a nascent RL nation can grow their participation rates much faster. Thus in a few short years their standards improve and they can realistically attempt to compete against the best. All the while raising the general profile of the game of Rugby League. This would take decades or forever with just the Tackle game.

There is already a X-League "World Cup" scheduled for 17-24th November in Sheffield. England is split between at Least Yorkshire and Lancashire as 2 separate teams with Japan apparently playing in that Tournament.

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1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

How are you defining "in the Rugby League framework"? Does the RFL run any Tag RL competitions? Which English RL clubs have Tag RL teams? I can find no such evidence.

I think it's been mentioned several times in this thread that Try Tag Rugby (TTR) is affiliated with the RFL. The RFL regularly promotes TTR on its social media channels.

Not sure what benefit a pro rugby team would get from having a Tag RL team but FYI the Coventry and Warwickshire leagues have close ties with Coventry Bears. Ultimately though people play to have fun and get fit, I'm not sure what the obsession is with it having to be labelled as Rugby League. 

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On 09/09/2020 at 07:24, OriginalMrC said:

Try Tag Rugby in the UK is a RL Variant and falls under the RFL banner. It was brought to the UK by Phil Browne (of Mascord Brownz). 

I play in the Coventry league and there is also a league in Leamington and Solihull. For me as someone who played RL I love it (though wish I was fitter!). The Coventry and Warwickshire leagues have links with Coventry Bears and are growing all the time. 

I agree that more might be done to ensure people know its RL they are playing but equally it needs to be seen as being accessible to everyone. The more people playing all versions RL the better IMO

 

43 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

I think it's been mentioned several times in this thread that Try Tag Rugby (TTR) is affiliated with the RFL. The RFL regularly promotes TTR on its social media channels.

Not sure what benefit a pro rugby team would get from having a Tag RL team but FYI the Coventry and Warwickshire leagues have close ties with Coventry Bears. Ultimately though people play to have fun and get fit, I'm not sure what the obsession is with it having to be labelled as Rugby League. 

If you attended a Tag/Touch tournament in Oz with literally thousands of participants and thousands more attending to watch, the majority wearing jumpers with their Touch/Tag logo on one breast and the Rugby League club they are affiliated with on the other breast you might get a better appreciation of the value of these non-contact versions of our sport have in attracting new fans.

As I posted recently a tournament recently held in Coffs Harbour was won by a team of Vietnamese Australians, not a demographic that is overly represented in Tackle League but I bet are much more likely to attend a RL game and buy RL merchandise if they know from where the sport they play originates from and are backed by a Rugby League Club.

After watching a bit of Touch and Tag on television lately I would even go as far as saying given the quality of the entertainment I saw, I would not be surprised that potentially that as these competitions mature they may have some broadcast rights value in themselves.

As you say "accessibility" is the key, but there will always be, as in most sports, those individuals who will want  to take it further, put together representative teams and play in large tournaments and/or representative matches. Rugby League must be associated with them.

P.S. when you say `pro rugby team`, what does that mean League ....Union ..what ?

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There has been numerous tag tournaments in the UK and there are representativw honours for those that want it. GB brought 5 teams to the last world cup. As I said though that's not why most play it. 

When I say a pro rugby team I am talking about RL. I mentioned that as its been suggested here that clubs should have a tag RL team. 

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13 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

There has been numerous tag tournaments in the UK and there are representativw honours for those that want it. GB brought 5 teams to the last world cup. As I said though that's not why most play it. 

When I say a pro rugby team I am talking about RL. I mentioned that as its been suggested here that clubs should have a tag RL team. 

Rugby League should try to get tag/touch WCs to be played at the same time and under the same banner as the RLWC. They're calling it a festival of WCs with the women's and wheelchair WCs incorporated. If it was expanded to include tag/touch versions then it would definitely be a festival and would also let everyone know it's a variant of RL

Edited by JM2010
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4 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

I think it's been mentioned several times in this thread that Try Tag Rugby (TTR) is affiliated with the RFL. The RFL regularly promotes TTR on its social media channels.

Not sure what benefit a pro rugby team would get from having a Tag RL team but FYI the Coventry and Warwickshire leagues have close ties with Coventry Bears. Ultimately though people play to have fun and get fit, I'm not sure what the obsession is with it having to be labelled as Rugby League. 

A person supports a pro RL team because they have an attachment to the game and/or a club. UK RL is currently struggling because too high a percentage of these attachments are inherited from the previous generation. Our fanbase is prone to atrophy. Not enough ways have been found to create new fans in families and circles of friends with no previous link to the game.

Someone playing Tag RL in a RL club is more likely to acquire such an attachment. Someone with a family member playing Tag RL in a RL club is more likely to acquire such an attachment. Someone with a friend playing Tag RL in a RL club is more likely to acquire such an attachment. None of this logic is at odds with people playing "to have fun and get fit".

Something called "Tag Rugby", which we vaguely think might be loosely "affiliated with the RFL", which the RFL desultorily "promotes", is less likely to make RL fans of its participants.

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57 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Rugby League should try to get tag/touch WCs to be played at the same time and under the same banner as the RLWC. They're calling it a festival of WCs with the women's and wheelchair WCs incorporated. If it was expanded to include tag/touch versions then it would definitely be a festival and would also let everyone know it's a variant of RL

I play Tag Rugby and it's great. I'm in my mid 50s and really enjoy playing. There's teams at all levels and quite a few RL fans play, there's 4 Dewsbury fans in our league and there's not that many of us about 😁. Definitely a good idea to add it to the WC. I just need a rep team for Over 55s from Wakefield area.

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10 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

Tag Rugby League is and has been since 2010.

Tag Rugby League is not part of the RL Framework, it is a name given to a variation of Tag which is different in both the UK and Australia (and appears more recently to have been dropped by the RFL for Try Tag Rugby) which are both used for Junior Development.

It is again different than OzTag and Tag League which both exist in Australia, in addition to Tag Rugby League and is not recognised by either the ITFF or IRL and even it's recognition by the NRL or RFL is limited.

6 hours ago, The Rocket said:

If you attended a Tag/Touch tournament in Oz with literally thousands of participants and thousands more attending to watch, the majority wearing jumpers with their Touch/Tag logo on one breast and the Rugby League club they are affiliated with on the other breast you might get a better appreciation of the value of these non-contact versions of our sport have in attracting new fans.

Whilst the 'club logos' look similar to Rugby League clubs, they're not. 

They will often use the same or similar name, but they'll have different logos or slight variances, like the Sydney East Tag side is called the 'Eastern Suburbs Roosters' and uses a variation of the old 'Sydney City Roosters' logo, and the Shire team is called the 'Surtherland District Sharks' and uses the Shark from the old 90s Sharks logo. 

Only the NRL Touch teams use the same branding as the NRL teams and have a direct association, as for other regions in both Tag & Touch, unless one of the local teams bought the franchise, any association is very loose.

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2 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

I play Tag Rugby and it's great. I'm in my mid 50s and really enjoy playing. There's teams at all levels and quite a few RL fans play, there's 4 Dewsbury fans in our league and there's not that many of us about 😁. Definitely a good idea to add it to the WC. I just need a rep team for Over 55s from Wakefield area.

We have here the perfect case study of how a stronger association with Rugby League could benefit the game. 

I note that `Wakefield Ram` says that  "quite a few (are) RL fans", this implies that many of the participants are not, a closer association with RL, active promotion by RL, special ticketing offers for participants and their families to attend RL matches is the sort of thing we should be aiming for. At that venue, everytime they play we have potential Rugby League recruits, fans and otherwise, who already enjoy playing a version of our game. This should be the case across the whole country and beyond.

Wakefield, I know you are obviously Old School, but two things, maybe you can be the one who starts calling it ` Tag Rugby League` so everyone knows what they are playing and two, good luck with that over 55`s rep team.👍 Loved your post.

 

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19 minutes ago, Yakstorm said:

Whilst the 'club logos' look similar to Rugby League clubs, they're not. 

They will often use the same or similar name, but they'll have different logos or slight variances, like the Sydney East Tag side is called the 'Eastern Suburbs Roosters' and uses a variation of the old 'Sydney City Roosters' logo, and the Shire team is called the 'Surtherland District Sharks' and uses the Shark from the old 90s Sharks logo. 

I think we can all agree that the terminology is a godawful mess. In the SH, to describe Tag forms that use a RL PTB, I`ve seen Oztag, League Tag, Tag League, Tag Football, Tag 20, KiwiTag. And over here I don`t think wild horses will stop people saying Tag Rugby to describe the lot.

The teams you mention above play Oztag. I`ve seen them in videos made by the Fairfield Falcons Oztag team. 

Blues League Tag is different. These comps for women, girls, and over-35s men are under the auspices of the NSW RL. The teams who play in the Cronulla junior League and NSW Country group Leagues play for, and out of, the same clubs as their Tackle equivalents. They wear the same colours, logos and badges.

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4 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

I play Tag Rugby and it's great. I'm in my mid 50s and really enjoy playing. There's teams at all levels and quite a few RL fans play, there's 4 Dewsbury fans in our league and there's not that many of us about 😁. Definitely a good idea to add it to the WC. I just need a rep team for Over 55s from Wakefield area.

Good to hear you can still form a quorum of Dewsbury fans. There`s hope yet.

As far as I`m aware the junior game in Dewsbury remains fairly healthy. Dewsbury Moor and Shaw Cross will have helped their numbers with the focus they`ve given to girls` teams. Imagine if they had League Tag as well in all their junior grades and open age.

For many people, if you suggest they could play "Tag Rugby", they will hear that word "Rugby" and it will be the last thing they could ever imagine themselves doing. If RL clubs ever get round to seeking expressions of interest to form Tag sections, maybe using "League Tag" or "Oztag" might yield more replies.

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Palmerston North teen on the path to playing in the NRL | Stuff.co.nz

16 year old Maraki Aumua signed by the North Queensland Cowboys to a six year contract after being spotted at a u16`s Touch tournament in New Zealand. Plenty of time to convert that Touch talent into a tackle League player.

I think that Rugby League could really start to see the benefits of investment in the non-contact versions of our game as illustrated by the above example. Very exciting.

 

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On 01/01/2021 at 11:08, Yakstorm said:

Thirdly, it gives us another way for us to crack into new markets and expand the game.

It's why we should be looking at this from a World Cup and IRL level, and setting the tone globally that these are variances of our sport, not a different sport.

Asia is the most propitious part of the world for RL to be presented and delivered as a contact/non-contact package. Firstly, because the game is incipient there and thus won`t have a hidebound emphasis on big contact. Secondly, because the ex-pats involved are mostly Aussies, who are likely to be influenced by the growing integration of Tackle and Tag in Australian RL clubs.

In development areas of the UK and continental Europe, where Northern English exiles are instrumental, there are fewer grounds for optimism. They are likely to persist with the tried, tested, and abysmally failed model of concentrating on recruiting RU players to play Tackle RL. No attempt to build a wider independent RL community through a non-contact form.

In the UK Tag is in the same position Touch was about 20 years ago. RL doesn`t really seem to want it, so it`s lying there for any opportunist tea-leaf to walk off with.

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4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Asia is the most propitious part of the world for RL to be presented and delivered as a contact/non-contact package. Firstly, because the game is incipient there and thus won`t have a hidebound emphasis on big contact. Secondly, because the ex-pats involved are mostly Aussies, who are likely to be influenced by the growing integration of Tackle and Tag in Australian RL clubs.

I had been pondering this very observation the last couple of days following the article on the `International Rugby League` Thread about the success and positivity that surrounded the recent IRL backed event in India.

 I posted my thoughts on that thread just now and are an echo of and an expansion on the advantages that may accrue of presenting Rugby League in a `contact/non-contact package` in new markets.

It does open another interesting angle of this debate though, especially given I know that you consider `Touch` Rugby League to be lost cause in your part of the world. I will touch on it briefly here in that the big advantage that touch does have over other forms of non-contact is its` potential to be played as a `casual` version of our game given the lack of equipment required. Thoughts.

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16 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I had been pondering this very observation the last couple of days following the article on the `International Rugby League` Thread about the success and positivity that surrounded the recent IRL backed event in India.

 I posted my thoughts on that thread just now and are an echo of and an expansion on the advantages that may accrue of presenting Rugby League in a `contact/non-contact package` in new markets.

It does open another interesting angle of this debate though, especially given I know that you consider `Touch` Rugby League to be lost cause in your part of the world. I will touch on it briefly here in that the big advantage that touch does have over other forms of non-contact is its` potential to be played as a `casual` version of our game given the lack of equipment required. Thoughts.

Totally agree with this point. Our club considered TTRL (Oztag) but even if we decided to run it ourselves from the club the tags are £45 for 2 sets and then each player would have to pay £17 each for a pair of approved shorts before you get going . We settled on X-League due to it being run by the RFL. Touch Rugby run by the England Touch association is a sport that is dominated by Union teams on O2 touch festivals seem to try and take that variant. When Covid allows we are having our own social X-league even every Friday 7-8pm then option to go to the bar after and the clubs social secretary is at the heart of this arranging after games meet ups for food etc every so often. We will be involved with the X-League world cup this year too. I played tag and it is something that we may consider socially if the interest gains and have a minimum contact evening with both options available. 

Edited by HarrogateKnights
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On 08/01/2021 at 07:32, The Rocket said:

It does open another interesting angle of this debate though, especially given I know that you consider `Touch` Rugby League to be lost cause in your part of the world. I will touch on it briefly here in that the big advantage that touch does have over other forms of non-contact is its` potential to be played as a `casual` version of our game given the lack of equipment required. Thoughts.

"Casual" is the key word in relation to Touch. I`ve said before that it resembles a bunch of people down the park randomly throwing a football around. A separation has to be made between the best informal option to get people used to handling an oval ball, and the best for playing competitive games within a framework of rules.

I think on the India thread you used the phrase "entry point". Touch is obviously a cheaper option than Tag, so notionally it would be the obvious "entry point". The problem is that RU has adopted Touch. So in an area where RL is being set up against longer established RU, why would people join an impecunious new RL club to play Touch if that is already available in the local RU club?

Most parts of the world have RU. Superficially they will see RL as a version of much the same thing. For them to be won over they have to see something distinctively appealing in the RL PTB and ruck. This can result from experiencing Tackle or Tag. The Touch Rollball however, just doesn`t look enough like RL to make a sufficiently strong differentiating impact.

For these reasons, in my view, all development programmes, wherever resources permit, should seek to have initially Oztag, progressing to League Tag as their optimum non-contact forms.

Edited by unapologetic pedant
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5 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Totally agree with this point. Our club considered TTRL (Oztag) but even if we decided to run it ourselves from the club the tags are £45 for 2 sets and then each player would have to pay £17 each for a pair of approved shorts before you get going . We settled on X-League due to it being run by the RFL. Touch Rugby run by the England Touch association is a sport that is dominated by Union teams on O2 touch festivals seem to try and take that variant. When Covid allows we are having our own social X-league even every Friday 7-8pm then option to go to the bar after and the clubs social secretary is at the heart of this arranging after games meet ups for food etc every so often. We will be involved with the X-League world cup this year too. I played tag and it is something that we may consider socially if the interest gains and have a minimum contact evening with both options available. 

There are Tags in Wheelchair RL. The players look to have one on each arm and several replacements. How do they manage to afford these if they`re so expensive?

The more I watch League Tag, the more I`m recognising the skill and positional sense involved in making the tags. The angles and footwork are similar to how a smaller player in Tackle RL avoids being front-on with a bigger opponent. Is there the same defensive technique involved in making the touch on the ball in X-League?

Also, isn`t the touch on the ball in X-League difficult to reliably referee? In Tag it`s either on or off, very clear-cut.

Edited by unapologetic pedant
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