Ask not for whom the bell tolls

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It only matters if a better presentation and a better proposal would have changed the mind of certain voters, but I think we all know that certain voters were never going to do that. For them, TW was a threat to be snuffed out and no proposal would have changed their stance. 

The question is a simple one - where is the growth?

I refer to my post above 

It seems to me that they were given a second chance , sorry I keep saying ' they ' , when I mean ' him ' ?

[whatmichaelsays]

Just now, Robin Evans said:

No we don't know that. That is only your assumption 

When you go over the history of how TW have been treated by Super League, and the comments of certain individuals prior to that, I think it's a fair assumption to make. 

When a bloke is on record several years ago as saying "we should focus on the north and not this Canadian fantasy", it's a safe bet to say his mind is made up. 

[whatmichaelsays]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

I refer to my post above 

It seems to me that they were given a second chance , sorry I keep saying ' they ' , when I mean ' him ' ?

I'm not defending LiVosi here, but I am saying he was walking into something of a kangaroo court. 

Again, I want to see RL grow. Where is that growth now?

[Robin Evans]

Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

When you go over the history of how TW have been treated by Super League, and the comments of certain individuals prior to that, I think it's a fair assumption to make. 

When a bloke is on record several years ago as saying "we should focus on the north and not this Canadian fantasy", it's a safe bet to say his mind is made up. 

Elstone may or may not have had a pre-concieved perception of TWP.

That doesn't negate the possibility that the re-sub doc wasn't a half ar sed bag of sheeite that was poorly presented leaving rejection the most likely outcomes despite the enthusiasm from some chairmen.

TWP set their own parameters for acceptance into SL.

[whatmichaelsays]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Elstone may or may not have had a pre-concieved perception of TWP.

That doesn't negate the possibility that the re-sub doc wasn't a half ar sed bag of sheeite that was poorly presented leaving rejection the most likely outcomes despite the enthusiasm from some chairmen.

TWP set their own parameters for acceptance into SL.

I wasn't referencing Elstone and I wasn't defending LiVosi's presentation. 

But I am suggesting that he could have crossed ever t, dotted every i, and it wouldn't have changed how some clubs voted. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I wasn't referencing Elstone and I wasn't defending LiVosi's presentation. 

But I am suggesting that he could have crossed ever t, dotted every i, and it wouldn't have changed how some clubs voted. 

You don't know that , and neither do I 

 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I wasn't referencing Elstone and I wasn't defending LiVosi's presentation. 

But I am suggesting that he could have crossed ever t, dotted every i, and it wouldn't have changed how some clubs voted. 

They were given the green light to SL the week prior to the GF by those very same chairmen......

I suspect the attitudinal approach and the poor approach to the re-sub played a significant part in the outcome.....

However, that's me making a speculative comment. 

As I've repeated many times, we don't have the info to make a fully informed comment. People are making judgement as fact without any substance

[whatmichaelsays]

4 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

They were given the green light to SL the week prior to the GF by those very same chairmen......

Only after shaking them down for their share of TV revenue. I'd also suggest that they weighed up the reputational damage of not admitting the team that won promotion on merit (given how so many Championship fans seen so opposed to licencing).

[Wildcat]

6 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

As I've repeated many times, we don't have the info to make a fully informed comment. People are making judgement as fact without any substance

This. The almost hysterical posts and blaming 'tin pot' clubs when they haven't seen the full info is silly.

 

[Chrispmartha]

I’m 50/50 on the Toronto decision and can’t make an informed comment without having the information.

One point though, having a team from Canada in our domestic league wasn’t universally looked upon by people outside the sport as a positive, many of the people I know who aren’t die hard RL fans but sports fans thought it was ridiculous and actually made the sport look worse/silly to them.

The game has been said to be dying for over 100years and its mainly fans of the sport proclaiming it.

[Robin Evans]

6 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I'd also suggest that they weighed up the reputational damage of not admitting the team that won promotion on merit (given how so many Championship fans seen so opposed to licencing).

Again, supposition. You can't possibly know this. 

Argyle is the one who screwed up here putting his club in a sh itty situation made worse by covid.

The criteria for entry that HE agreed to and stated was viable, proved not to be and he scarpered leaving twp up brown stuff creek. Letting them in under HIS criteria was the right thing to do.

Livolsi came along andmade some noise. I doubt we will ever be fully informed on his re-sub to make a judgement as to whether it was right to reject livolsi.

It hasn't stopped many coming to a conclusion though.... even to the point of blaming leigh or fev ffs.... like they had a hand in this

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

I’m 50/50 on the Toronto decision and can’t make an informed comment without having the information.

One point though, having a team from Canada in our domestic league wasn’t universally looked upon by people outside the sport as a positive, many of the people I know who aren’t die hard RL fans but sports fans thought it was ridiculous and actually made the sport look worse to them.

The game has been said to be dying for over 100years and its mainly fans of the sport proclaiming it.

I concur , trying to ' explain ' Toronto in an essentially UK based competition was hard work , " daft , stupid , silly " were the normal reactions 

[whatmichaelsays]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

Again, supposition. You can't possibly know this. 

Argyle is the one who screwed up here putting his club in a sh itty situation made worse by covid.

The criteria for entry that HE agreed to and stated was viable, proved not to be and he scarpered leaving twp up brown stuff creek. Letting them in under HIS criteria was the right thing to do.

Livolsi came along andmade some noise. I doubt we will ever be fully informed on his re-sub to make a judgement as to whether it was right to reject livolsi.

It hasn't stopped many coming to a conclusion though.... even to the point of blaming leigh or fev ffs.... like they had a hand in this

Again, I'm not defending anyone. All I am saying is that, on the balance of evidence, some minds were already made up. 

Assumptions and supposition? Absolutely. Completely without basis? Absolutely not. 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

 

The game has been said to be dying for over 100years and its mainly fans of the sport proclaiming it.

We're a strange breed. A few on here have declared their intention to walk away from the game as a result of yesterday's decision.

I and others will do similar if licencing is brought back.

We do this. We do this like no other sport. 

[Robin Evans]

Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

 

Assumptions and supposition? Absolutely. Completely without basis? Absolutely not. 

Then we disagree

[Roy Haggerty]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It doesn't really matter whether the decision, in isolation, was good for the game or not.

The direction of travel is clearer and clearer. An increasingly parochial and marginalised sport incapable of growth.

But some old men are delighted that their game remains pure.

This is the point. Yesterday’s TWP decision was really just the inevitable conclusion of a series of decisions which all served to ensure the concept was going to fail: forcing a transatlantic team to waste huge amounts of money and goodwill in the semi-amateur lower leagues which even most existing RL fans ignore; refusing to provide an equal share of central funding; fixture scheduling which needlessly increased expenses for the club; and of course the blessed promotion and relegation shibboleth which acts as a firewall to protect the established never-wills against the potential might-be’s. At every point, decisions were made to put obstacles in the way. Yesterday’s outcome was determined over the last four years. And the people who made or supported those decisions now blame the victim of their choices. 
 

People saying “ah, we’ve had predictions of our demise before”. Yes, we have. But as the saying goes, those of us who want to defy those predictions need to be right every time, while the predictors only need to be right once. We’re in a lot of trouble, and making like ostriches is only going to amplify that.  

[marklaspalmas]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/toronto-wolfpack-super-league-castleford-wigan-hull-kr-hull-fc-huddersfield-salford-wakefield-746015

A bit more understanding behind why it went the way it did. 

The irony of Wakefield CEO Carter sitting in judgement on another club's suitability for SL is too strong to take at this hour of the morning. It'd be laughable if I didn't care.

[iffleyox]

30 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I’m 50/50 on the Toronto decision and can’t make an informed comment without having the information.

One point though, having a team from Canada in our domestic league wasn’t universally looked upon by people outside the sport as a positive, many of the people I know who aren’t die hard RL fans but sports fans thought it was ridiculous and actually made the sport look worse/silly to them.

The game has been said to be dying for over 100years and its mainly fans of the sport proclaiming it.

without ever entering the 'delirious cheerleader' realm I've always been at least relatively pro Toronto on here. However, I can confirm from outside the heartlands that for every one person who thought the inclusion of Toronto was exciting/innovative/etc, I spoke to at least a couple who thought it was ludicrous and in a funny sort of way made it even more small time.

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

The irony of Wakefield CEO Carter sitting in judgement on another club's suitability for SL is too strong to take at this hour of the morning. It'd be laughable if I didn't care.

Privy to their accounts, are you, Mark? Or just adjusting that tin foil hat?

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

without ever entering the 'delirious cheerleader' realm I've always been at least relatively pro Toronto on here. However, I can confirm from outside the heartlands that for every one person who thought the inclusion of Toronto was exciting/innovative/etc, I spoke to at least a couple who thought it was ludicrous and in a funny sort of way made it even more small time.

Odd, I haven't met anyone who thought that and most were surprised in a good way in that they couldn't believe that RL was so big to have a team in Toronto. Certainly for RU fans it is the norm with the Pro 14, with South African teams and across 5 countries, and Super RU for decades. Even GAA has teams in London and New York. Its not like it is uncommon.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Privy to their accounts, are you, Mark? Or just adjusting that tin foil hat?

We all know what's in them. The answer is the same in hundreds, thousands and millions of pounds

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Course it matters. If the presentation was a half ar sed effort put together on the back of a cig packet with unintelligible numbers and presented from his car whilst he was driving for his morning copy of the Toronto bugle, then its the right decision to make and not necessarily an indication of the direction of travel 

Not really. The damage is ongoing almost regardless of yesterday’s decision.

[Gerrumonside ref]

For all those dancing a merry jig on Toronto’s grave...what next?

Where does the sport in the U.K. go now?

[Robin Evans]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Not really. The damage is ongoing almost regardless of yesterday’s decision.

Toulouse in SL would support the expansion agenda wouldn't it? Keep the game going in the right direction??

Thats not such a far fetched idea is it?

Though I am expecting my club to make some noise today and I'll be surprised if delbert isn't in full voice.

[Robin Evans]

Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

For all those dancing a merry jig on Toronto’s grave...what next?

Where does the sport in the U.K. go now?

South West France