Elstone talks TV deal, Private Equity and next season (ish)

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Rupert Prince said:

What general attitude is that?  They need the money, their tv rights have declined I believe. 

But none of all that you say changes the point.  We need investment and we need A PE partner to help us drive revenues.  The real question is not do we stick our heads in the sand but which partner is best for us.  

They dislike massive financial investment, see the attitude towards RB Leipzig.

I don't say anything to try change the point, just to put it in perspective.

[M j M]

6 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

we need A PE partner to help us drive revenues.

Tell us how this will work.

[Rupert Prince]

24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They dislike massive financial investment, see the attitude towards RB Leipzig.

I don't say anything to try change the point, just to put it in perspective.

Yes thanks for that...  But Leipzig I read are owned by Red Bull. !!!   They, that is Red Bull, bought them in 2009 when they were a nobody team.  They must have put tons of money into them...  admittedly as a walking billboard.

[Rupert Prince]

22 minutes ago, M j M said:

Tell us how this will work.

Err... ask the people from F1 or the other businesses they manage.  

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Scotchy1 said:

No i havent. https://www.totalrl.com/talking-rugby-league-is-private-equity-right-for-super-league/

Im not sure why you have taken such offence at this. As i said, im not against it in principle. Im just unconvinced that such a small amount requires us selling the family silver. 

Nobody knows what money is being talked about... or what deal, it's speculation.  What's real is that the great Satan, RU, have received lots of money already and have a saleable product (whether you or anyone else likes it or not) and the wide world of RU is going to trample over us unless we do something about it. 

Frankly I'm wondering if there is anything we can do about it, but doing nothing is going to consign ourselves to the scrap heap.

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes thanks for that...  But Leipzig I read are owned by Red Bull. !!!   They, that is Red Bull, bought them in 2009 when they were a nobody team.  They must have put tons of money into them...  admittedly as a walking billboard.

Without wishing to digress ... this is what is being referenced with regards to the Bundesliga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%2B1_rule

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Err... ask the people from F1 or the other businesses they manage.  

Like this?

The deputy team principal of Force India, Bob Fernley, accused CVC of "raping the sport" during the period of its involvement in Formula One.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes thanks for that...  But Leipzig I read are owned by Red Bull. !!!   They, that is Red Bull, bought them in 2009 when they were a nobody team.  They must have put tons of money into them...  admittedly as a walking billboard.

Exactly, and German Football culture dislikes them utterly because it goes against the whole fan/club culture of German football. 

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Like this?

The deputy team principal of Force India, Bob Fernley, accused CVC of "raping the sport" during the period of its involvement in Formula One.

Tbf Force India went bust.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Tbf Force India went bust.

To be fairer, as far as I can tell, private equity doesn't appear to have any involvement with Formula 1 right now.

[M j M]

31 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

55 minutes ago, M j M said:

Tell us how this will work.

Err... ask the people from F1 or the other businesses they manage.  

So you've no idea then?

[Tommygilf]

Just now, gingerjon said:

To be fairer, as far as I can tell, private equity doesn't appear to have any involvement with Formula 1 right now.

Yes, though they were involved for over a decade and have now sold to Liberty Media who are essentially a similar but far more benevolent owner.

It was a difficult experience, but it dragged F1 towards the attitude of profitability. 

What should be learned is that Private Equity want their investment returned on as priority number 1.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Yes, though they were involved for over a decade and have now sold to Liberty Media who are essentially a similar but far more benevolent owner.

It was a difficult experience, but it dragged F1 towards the attitude of profitability. 

What should be learned is that Private Equity want their investment returned on as priority number 1.

I think a lesson some of our more wide eyed correspondents might want to note is what has happened to F1 in terms of broad competitiveness and the number of teams involved as well.

[Hela Wigmen]

44 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes thanks for that...  But Leipzig I read are owned by Red Bull. !!!   They, that is Red Bull, bought them in 2009 when they were a nobody team.  They must have put tons of money into them...  admittedly as a walking billboard.

They didn’t buy Leipzig. They bought SSV Markranstadt, who played 13km outside of Leipzig. They bought them, moved them to Leipzig, changed their name, shirts and basically turned their back on their history. 

[Tommygilf]

49 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think a lesson some of our more wide eyed correspondents might want to note is what has happened to F1 in terms of broad competitiveness and the number of teams involved as well.

I mean tbf the Mercedes dominance came at the end of the CVC period and continued into Liberty. The 10 years CVC owned F1 saw Ferrari, McLaren, the rise of Brawn (Honda then subsequently Mercedes), and the rise of Red Bull as a title challenger (and then dominant in 2 years with an excellent car), Renault returning. If you asked most F1 fans what was the most competitive season in F1 of the past 15 years most would say 2012. And under CVC 3 "new teams" (plus a few rebranded see Lotus/Mercedes) joined and left too.

What is now being introduced is elements of breaking negative feedback loops and making F1 more affordable and realistic for new teams to enter. I like that a lot and certainly think that is applicable to RL as you hint at.

I think the lesson is that CVC etc will actually take minimal interest in the sport itself as an organisation. However, they'll likely want their own person on the board to make sure their investment continues to provide a return. That's to say, the sport can run itself as long as it provides the return. 

Edit: I'll add that ensuring the sport "provides a return" means securing its leading assets. That doesn't mean wholescale licensing, but also means they will prioritise and protect Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Hull, Warrington etc. They'll have none of the sentimental "ooo weren't Salford good this year though" for example either.

[Martyn Sadler]

3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The PE does not take a chunk out of the TV deal.  It takes a percent over and above a set amount.  As per the RU Premiership deal.

If it is such a bad idea why have Serie A done a deal?  CVC are talking to Bundeslega and La Lega.   

The game is going to die and die soon, unless we do something.  

You never know, the odd occasional RL half awake journalist might wake up and smell the coffee.

I don't think the idea is to take a percentage over a certain amount.

Obviously if it were it would be more acceptable, but as I understand it the deal is along the lines of taking a 51% share ownership in SLE and then taking 30% of the broadcasting and commercial revenues.

If the broadcasting revenue is, say £30 million per year, that would mean £9 million going to the PE company.

It's an incredibly expensive way to raise finance and when you also lose control of your organisation it doesn't look like a good deal to me.

[ATLANTISMAN]

13 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I don't think the idea is to take a percentage over a certain amount.

Obviously if it were it would be more acceptable, but as I understand it the deal is along the lines of taking a 51% share ownership in SLE and then taking 30% of the broadcasting and commercial revenues.

If the broadcasting revenue is, say £30 million per year, that would mean £9 million going to the PE company.

It's an incredibly expensive way to raise finance and when you also lose control of your organisation it doesn't look like a good deal to me.

Totally agree (This if true would be bonkers) as I stated on here previously this is more akin to loan sharking than investment.

Clubs have to concentrate minds on increasing secondary revenue streams for extra cash its not Einstein:)

 

P 

 

 

[Scotchy1]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Nobody knows what money is being talked about... or what deal, it's speculation.  What's real is that the great Satan, RU, have received lots of money already and have a saleable product (whether you or anyone else likes it or not) and the wide world of RU is going to trample over us unless we do something about it. 

Frankly I'm wondering if there is anything we can do about it, but doing nothing is going to consign ourselves to the scrap heap.

As i said, im not against it in principle, but what is being proposed, admittedly based on the speculation and rumours in the press, would be terrible imo.

Its too small a figure to really make a huge difference to SL, and there are surely better routes to that money. 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Like this?

The deputy team principal of Force India, Bob Fernley, accused CVC of "raping the sport" during the period of its involvement in Formula One.

This is the same Force India that barely won a point before going bust and taken over by Racing Point.  So they may not be good witnesses.  Racing Point themselves must have a use or benefit as they are sponsored by Aston Martin next year.   (their driver Peres is 5th ahead of Ferrari)

I don't see many involved in F1 having to lie down and think of England.  

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

This is the same Force India that barely won a point before going bust and taken over by Racing Point.  So they may not be good witnesses.  Racing Point themselves must have a use or benefit as they are sponsored by Aston Martin next year.   (their driver Peres is 5th ahead of Ferrari)

I don't see many involved in F1 having to lie down and think of England.  

I think - others will know more - that Racing Point aren't sponsored by Aston Martin so much as the people involved have become Aston Martin?

I have no idea about Force India. An unsuccessful team going bust doesn't point to the sort of stability that investment is meant to bring.

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think - others will know more - that Racing Point aren't sponsored by Aston Martin so much as the people involved have become Aston Martin?

I have no idea about Force India. An unsuccessful team going bust doesn't point to the sort of stability that investment is meant to bring.

Stroll who owns racing point (and employs his son as driver) also owns Aston Martin IIRC and so he is going to use the name which makes sense.. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I don't think the idea is to take a percentage over a certain amount.

Obviously if it were it would be more acceptable, but as I understand it the deal is along the lines of taking a 51% share ownership in SLE and then taking 30% of the broadcasting and commercial revenues.

If the broadcasting revenue is, say £30 million per year, that would mean £9 million going to the PE company.

It's an incredibly expensive way to raise finance and when you also lose control of your organisation it doesn't look like a good deal to me.

This sounds an utterly terrible deal. If Robert Elstone recommends something like for Super League I can’t see how anyone could defend him. 

Some say the game sold its soul to sky, I don’t agree with that, but this really would be selling the soul of the game and a mistake that will cost us dearly forever more. 

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I don't think the idea is to take a percentage over a certain amount.

Obviously if it were it would be more acceptable, but as I understand it the deal is along the lines of taking a 51% share ownership in SLE and then taking 30% of the broadcasting and commercial revenues.

If the broadcasting revenue is, say £30 million per year, that would mean £9 million going to the PE company.

It's an incredibly expensive way to raise finance and when you also lose control of your organisation it doesn't look like a good deal to me.

Such a bad deal that Serie A are in the middle of doing it and Pro Rugby have done it and Premiership Rugby have done it.  British Lions is going that way..  its a great brand it will go places.   Don't blame me if you get flattened by the steam roller.  Why is Owen Farrell not playing RL.  Why is Shaun Edwards in RU?  Why is Andy Farrell in Ireland.  Even before that, why did Robinson win a RU World Cup medal? Because it's a game that is making big news.

Because we have and still are sticking our heads in the sand.  "...we petty men ... peep about to find ourselves dishonourable graves".

I dont know if CVC  is right for RL, there are others, but they and Premiership Rugby are all heavily incentiveised to improve revenues... you must be blind deaf and dumb if you don't know that.  

[Rupert Prince]

34 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think - others will know more - that Racing Point aren't sponsored by Aston Martin so much as the people involved have become Aston Martin?

I have no idea about Force India. An unsuccessful team going bust doesn't point to the sort of stability that investment is meant to bring.

Yes.  Stroll is a bit like the man who liked the razor and bought the company.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Scotchy1 said:

As i said, im not against it in principle, but what is being proposed, admittedly based on the speculation and rumours in the press, would be terrible imo.

Its too small a figure to really make a huge difference to SL, and there are surely better routes to that money. 

It depends what the money is being used for, though I agree it seems a relatively small sum anyhow.