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Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

Col81

By Col81
in The General Rugby League Forum

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Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

The threads are difficult to navigate on here at the best of times with the derailment that goes on so was hoping for some actual source data. Best I could find was a Total RL article published in April this year by Stephen Ibbetson which shows more of a mixed bag than anything:

Cas 2010 - 6,616/2019 - 7,253

Cats 2010 - 6,806/2019 - 10,259

Hudds 2010 - 7,280/2019 - 5,226

Hull FC 2010 - 14,014/2019 - 11,479

Hull KR 2010 - 8,207/2019 - 8,220

Leeds 2010 - 15,208/2019 - 12,727

Salford 2010 - 4,166/2019 - 3,746

St Helens 2010 - 11,571/2019 - 11,910

Wakefield 2010 - 5,983/2019 - 5,468

Warrington 2010 - 10,738/2019 - 10,648

Wigan 2010 - 15,181/ 2019 - 11,432

Source - https://www.totalrl.com/up-or-down-an-in-depth-club-by-club-look-at-attendances-over-the-past-decade/

The article does also provide some interesting context into the 2012 season Scotchy held up, such as an anomalous spike in St Helens attendances due to first season at the new stadium, along with a large spike at Wakefield due to new ownership and 'generous prices'. Leeds looks fairly stable until a sharp drop when the work on headingly began, the only real concerns for me in that data are Wigan who do seem to be losing fans at a worrying rate and Huddersfield. It would be even more helpful to actually see game wide attendances to see a fuller picture than just Featherstone.

To be fair spikes happen both ways. For example Catalans 2019 figure there is excessively high courtesy of a 30k+ high crowd in Barcelona. I don't even know if they got a 5 figure crowd other than that last season.

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Hela Wigmen

Hela Wigmen

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Damien said:

To be fair spikes happen both ways. For example Catalans 2019 figure there is excessively high courtesy of a 30k+ high crowd in Barcelona. I don't even know if they got a 5 figure crowd other than this last season.

Twice. Once vs Cas and once vs Hull. Rest at the Brutus around 8000-9000 figure on average. 

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LeytherRob

LeytherRob

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Damien said:

To be fair spikes happen both ways. For example Catalans 2019 figure there is excessively high courtesy of a 30k+ high crowd in Barcelona. I don't even know if they got a 5 figure crowd other than this last season.

True, though its still showing an upwards trend from 6.5k they got in 2011. 

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Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

True, though its still showing an upwards trend from 6.5k they got in 2011. 

Indeed they have become a real solid 8-9k range club. However if you are saying about spikes changing one years figures you need to be fair and acknowledge the ones in another year. Even the figures you show have 7 clubs showing drops, and some quite considerable drops at that. The only noticeable increases are Cas and Catalans.

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Big Picture

Big Picture

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Celt said:

So.... Elstone said only last month on BBC 5 Live that he was most interested in what would the new club bring in terms of commercial value.

"Is it going to get broadcasters interested, is it going to get sponsors interested?" were pretty much his exact words.

Good to know. And great to know that Leigh is the best option in terms of adding value among broadcasters and sponsors. Which broadcasters did he mean? Wire FM? BBC Radio Manchester?  

Realistically though, would adding London or Toulouse, or both of them, or both of them and Toronto to a league otherwise populated by teams in smallish economically disadvantaged towns up north be enough to get national broadcasters and big money sponsors interested?  I think the truth is that it wouldn't be.

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LeytherRob

LeytherRob

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Indeed they have become a real solid 8-9k range club. However if you are saying about spikes changing one years figures you need to be fair and acknowledge the ones in another year. Even the figures you show have 7 clubs showing drops, and some quite considerable drops at that. The only noticeable increases are Cas and Catalans.

I did acknowledge the Catalans spike as soon as you mentioned it. I hadn't mentioned every factor for every club because I'd still be writing the post now. There are 3 big drops there, the 2 I mentioned and Hull which I missed in my initial post. I'm not including Leeds because it's heavily skewed by have a ground in progress for the last 2 years that limited capacity. The test will be in next couple of years post covid.

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The Future is League

The Future is League

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The player production argument regularly trotted out comes to mind. Especially considering yesterday meaning we now have 2 teams in Greater Manchester, a sixth of Super League, without a category 1 academy. 

The "no away fans argument" was always funny, especially when circa 400 turned up at Bradford and we had people trying to ask their postcodes in a hilarious attempt to say that they didn't count as true "away fans". 

The TV deal is an even funnier one considering it was tied up for a paltry sum in NA at the time our own deal was signed for 2015. That's to say, they couldn't have had an effect until the end of 2021 at the earliest, but it was still a stick used in bad faith.

Obviously a lot of these are related to the age and maturity of the club too which was often something not taken into account with criticism.

There's plenty of mental gymnastics and glass houses at play too. 

No category 1 academy to me = no Super League place.

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LeytherRob

LeytherRob

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Realistically though, would adding London or Toulouse, or both of them, or both of them and Toronto to a league otherwise populated by teams in smallish economically disadvantaged towns up north be enough to get national broadcasters and big money sponsors interested?  I think the truth is that it wouldn't be.

London in particular is typically held up as an example but how many blue chip sponsors are going to be seriously tempted by a team that barely averaged 2k in their last SL season? Just having a big city name is meaningless unless there is something behind it.

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Man of Kent

Man of Kent

Posted
Posted
Just now, Tommygilf said:

I should hope a representative from the clubs that voted for this arrangement were present to take their slice each game

I wouldn't be shocked if Degsy had whispered in Elstone's shell-like that he'd be happy with £1m funding before SL had even announced there'd be a 12th club. 

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LeytherRob

LeytherRob

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Agree, but in the meantime no Category 1 academy = no Super League place for me

Forcing clubs to do something about it to meet the criteria what ever that is.

If you are going to place a criteria on promotion and want to maintain some semblance of fair competition, then it's probably best to drop the rule that prevents clubs from being able to meet that criteria beforehand. Unless you want a situation where only Widnes, Bradford, London and Newcastle are eligible for promotion.

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del capo

del capo

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

No they can't. There are restrictions on what agre groups and levels clubs can and can't run, plus issues with access to the academy leagues.

It is not an issue of restrictions but a whole ball game approach  with off the park standards especially important. Expect to spend 200k each year to get it right..  Leigh  ( and Salford for that matter ) do not have those standards or cash.. Cat 3 standards are miles off Cat 1 ones, the playing structures and recruitment rules are massively different ,  and the top clubs  like Leeds Wigan and Saints run at both Cat 1 and Cat 3

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The Future is League

The Future is League

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

If you are going to place a criteria on promotion and want to maintain some semblance of fair competition, then it's probably best to drop the rule that prevents clubs from being able to meet that criteria beforehand. Unless you want a situation where only Widnes, Bradford, London and Newcastle are eligible for promotion.

I stick by what i say. No category 1 academy = no Super League place. Forcing clubs who have Super League ambitions to run academies.

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