Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

[sweaty craiq]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They should, but given Salford don't have one for reasons set by your fellow Leigh fans, I hope whoever runs it can think outside the box

No disrespect to Salfords Youth clubs but our players are on the doorstep if we can get them eg Wigan took on 17 into Scholarship recently 6 came from Leigh clubs plus 1 from Westhaughton. You must have a T1 academy to attract the better players, otherwise you work with the colleges and hope you pick up a late developer type. Grant us a T1 licence and in 3/4 years the players will be coming through.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

Says the one who was complaining yesterday about having his opinions challenged. Thaz as flat capped as I am....

I wasn't at all, I equally didn't just decry anyone else's opinion as "stop it being negative you're upsetting me and others either", which is rather the point 

[Robin Evans]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I wasn't at all, I equally didn't just decry anyone else's opinion as "stop it being negative you're upsetting me and others either", which is rather the point 

Aye alright.....

[Scotchy1]

59 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They are absolutely not bad faith arguments. 

Insisting that TWP played Canadian players in Y4 absolutely would be, but questioning what their strategy and approach to player development is isn't bad faith. Questioning whether we would ever see Canadian players in SL is a fairly resonable argument. My personal view is that we would probably be talking 20 years maybe before we saw a small handful of pro RL players, but the lack of signs of starting that RL youth development was a big issue for some. FWIW, I strongly disagreed with one poster's claims that it is not expansion until you have player development, I found that odd. 

Questioning the value they bring to TV rights is also valid, whether that is for the next deal, or even in 20 years, there needs to be a hypothesis at least. 

I would have expected the new guy's bid to have had details of potential commercial/media value and player development - I don't see them as controversial topics for discussion.  

They absolutely are bad faith arguments. 

The youth development argument is absolutely bad faith, not only because its clearly not possible, but also it is a standard not applied to every club. Leigh have been around for more than 100 years. How many Leigh academy products will they be bringing up with them? Why havent those same posters made those same arguments against Leighs admission? Because they were bad faith arguments.

Holding them responsible for the TV rights value isnt valid. For many reasons. Firstly, they werent Toronto's to sell. Secondly they were already sold and so Toronto couldnt  have added value to them anyway. Thirdly, to repeat the point above. How much are Leigh adding to the tv rights value and why arent those same posters making those same arguments against Leighs admission? 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, sweaty craiq said:

No disrespect to Salfords Youth clubs but our players are on the doorstep if we can get them eg Wigan took on 17 into Scholarship recently 6 came from Leigh clubs plus 1 from Westhaughton. You must have a T1 academy to attract the better players, otherwise you work with the colleges and hope you pick up a late developer type. Grant us a T1 licence and in 3/4 years the players will be coming through.

That's fair, though I still think "on your doorstep" presents the obvious challenge others have highlighted. I think a 4th Westie academy, be it yours or Salford's, would have to start looking in different places.

[Smudger06]

Got people throwing their teddies out the cot and threatening to leave the game.......not because of a great injustice to their beloved club, but because of great injustice to them personally and in particular, it offends their own vision for the game, along with their own self importance. 

I mean, come on, a series of unfortunate events, including a global pandemic.   

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Scotchy1 said:

How much are Leigh adding to the tv rights value...

Rights already sold - that is bad faith, sorry.

[sweaty craiq]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

That's fair, though I still think "on your doorstep" presents the obvious challenge others have highlighted. I think a 4th Westie academy, be it yours or Salford's, would have to start looking in different places.

or you accept that the biggest clubs will hoover the best from everywhere, and you work hard at making whats left the best they can possibly be 

[Scotchy1]

4 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

No disrespect to Salfords Youth clubs but our players are on the doorstep if we can get them eg Wigan took on 17 into Scholarship recently 6 came from Leigh clubs plus 1 from Westhaughton. You must have a T1 academy to attract the better players, otherwise you work with the colleges and hope you pick up a late developer type. Grant us a T1 licence and in 3/4 years the players will be coming through.

Seems like Wigan are doing a perfectly fine job in that player pool. 

Where are the new ones coming from. 

 

 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Rights already sold - that is bad faith, sorry.

You're editing of the post is bad faith Dave. 

That isnt what it says, you know that isnt what it says and had someone else done that you would be crying blue murder about posters lying and being disingenuous. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, sweaty craiq said:

or you accept that the biggest clubs will hoover the best from everywhere, and you work hard at making whats left the best they can possibly be 

Quite, but even then it still makes sense to look beyond yours (and therefore their) doorstep. Cumbria, Wales, the North East etc. It needs a bit of lateral thinking otherwise the academy will just be worse by definition 

[Dave T]

Just now, Scotchy1 said:

You're editing of the post is bad faith Dave. 

That isnt what it says, you know that isnt what it says and had someone else done that you would be crying blue murder about posters lying and being disingenuous. 

yeah... funnily enough, my post wasn't entirely serious. 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

or you accept that the biggest clubs will hoover the best from everywhere, and you work hard at making whats left the best they can possibly be 

But that doesnt grow the player pool does it.

An argument only made to disparage Toronto, when Toronto were in fact one of the very few opportunities we had to grow the player pool. 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

You may be right. But I honestly don’t think I have the inclination to bother now....just CBA in truth.

And BTW the ‘next stop Barcelona’ was just a bit of a generic phrase thrown in, it was used at the time by flat earthers to deride any attempt at RL expansion. 

First think what you'll miss when you cut you nose off.

Expansion is the EU of our game and next stop Barcelona among many other things  has been part of of the derision over and over again. That plus the ineptitude at the top plus  a bunch of aging and ultimately disappointed sounding pundits and posters are enough to wear anyone down. They're hardly worth getting out of bed for most days. But they're not what happens on the paddock they're just the people in the kitchen at the party. I posted somewhere else on here how much I missed the days of TGG & Open Rugby and it was because in those publications we were just as argumentative but far more positive and much more fun, and TGG was what we all shared, and the choice is always give up altogether or stay and argue the toss because you care and you're bothered.

 

[Scotchy1]

Just now, Dave T said:

yeah... funnily enough, my post wasn't entirely serious. 

Swing and a miss on that one it seems. 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Scotchy1 said:

Everything else has become a bit meh.

That's just you Scotchy not the game, though being on this forum might have alot to do with it!

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Nearly 30 behind me Oxy on his bigger number, how about you?

I started playing before I started watching and weirdly my first match was this one at Station Road

Great Britain	3 – 11	Australia

[Scotchy1]

4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

That's just you Scotchy not the game, though being on this forum might have alot to do with it!

I dont think it is. Attendances are quite far down from where we were 8-10 years ago. Viewing figures are down. Challenge Cup final attendances have fallen off a cliff. 

10-20 years ago you could make a convincing argument that the game was up there with cricket and RU as a 2nd tier sport in the country, it was going places, there was opportunity. Over the last 5 or 6 years we have lost touch completely with 2nd tier sports and seem happy drifting towards being middle of the third tier sports. We seem to be on a managed decline. Bradford have gone, probably never to come back, london are struggling, SL today is less geographically diverse than it was in SL 1. Gausch's millions are stopping a complete and utter retreat to the m62. 

As ive said on the other thread, casual interest in RL seems to have dropped off a cliff. 

I just feel like im watching the sports horizons become smaller and smaller, the wins and successes becoming smaller. A sport with less drive, less ambition, just winding down the clock. The big and the bold just seems to have gone completely from the sport. 

[Oxford]

12 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

I dont think it is. Attendances are quite far down from where we were 8-10 years ago.

I didn't say you were alone, though much of that drop can be explained by being out of the media forefront and an aging fans base.

[Damien]

As much as we have been told for years that we shouldn't dismiss the views of fans from lower league heartland clubs we also shouldn't dismiss what people are saying when they are disillusioned with the game in this country and bored of the managed decline and status quo. There are certainly an ever increasing number of fans that feel the way Scotchy does. Social media and this website tells us that, never mind anecdotal evidence from friends and family. I would firmly put myself in that boat too.

[DOGFATHER]

53 minutes ago, Clogiron said:

Thinking about it over time this comment may have been misunderstood, I wasn't getting at Leigh themselves, any of the clubs in the contest obviously wanted the place and believed they could  make a fist of it but the past doesn't support this. The SL club's have twisted the criteria to suit themselves, less Sky money, ensures that, most would have been happy to run with 11 teams or less if it meant more money for themselves but it seems their paymasters wanted a even number. They have previous for this with the Bulls on one of their implosions I recall.

Any talk of expansion should be forgotten about, Toulouse must be questioning whether they have any prospect of gaining admission even if they win the championship and likewise the Dragons know the lie of the land vis CC admittance fees and TV deals, sadly they don't help themselves with some of the Richard heads they sign as player's.

It's a small time game run by small time men.

I completely agree with your final point.

This whole saga has been a complete embarrassment to the game. Could you imagine the EFL, or any other professional sport following a similar process, if they found themselves in the same position?

Why is promotion decided by a committee, and open to claims of unfairness and bias in the process? Especially when the process could be weighted in any way the panel wanted it to.

You do not have to follow the game too closely to realise, that there are quite a few clubs in SL in a less than financially favourable position, the risk of one or more of the clubs in SL folding has been a consideration for a number of years. It could hardly have come as a shock that one of the teams would fall by the way side.

Therefore, why was there not a process to replace a club that had folded/gone in to administration, with a clear and transparent ruling written up prior to the inevitable?

E.g. The losing Grand Finalist from the division below in the previous season, is automatically promoted. No need for an embarrassing circus, a committee, or leaving the game looking like it is a back of a cigarette packet operation.

It is bad enough to have the decision of which team to promote decided by a committee in the first place, but why have different panel's for SL and L1?

Logic would suggest that if an independent panel, made up of the best people to make the decision has been selected, why would there be a requirement for two differing panels for the same sport?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Yes, I wasn't going to name you without you on the thread, but it was you I was thinking of. And I completely disagree with you that it can't be expansion without player development (you have been as explicit as that) - my view was that the new sponsors, new fans, new investors in new territories was absolutely expansion. 

I disagree with your point, but I don't think you are making it in bad faith. 

That'll do me, it is as I always say we all have opinions, this site wouldn't exist we were all of the same opinion.

And who is right, I have often quoted Bob Dylan's song about times of conflict "With God on their side" they all believed they were right, just because we had winner's it doesn't mean they were correct does it?

[LeytherRob]

40 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Seems like Wigan are doing a perfectly fine job in that player pool. 

Where are the new ones coming from. 

 

 

Pointing out hypocrisy and bad faith arguments  used against Toronto only really works if you don't start engaging in the same bad faith and hypocritical arguments against other clubs.

[Scotchy1]

Just now, LeytherRob said:

Pointing out hypocrisy and bad faith arguments  used against Toronto only really works if you don't start engaging in the same bad faith and hypocritical arguments against other clubs.

That adding another club in the heartlands doesnt expand the player pool isnt a bad faith argument. 

[sweaty craiq]

47 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Seems like Wigan are doing a perfectly fine job in that player pool. 

Where are the new ones coming from. 

 

 

Elite