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International RL Eligibility - Update


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5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Can’t you understand the different between a second generation Tongan in Australia with two parents born in Tonga, and an English bloke with one Scottish grandparent? 

Yes I can usually tell the difference between those two examples one has a Tongan heritage and the other a Scots one ...easy.

What I can't tell you is which one is prouder.

 

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2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The grandparent eligibility rule exists in almost every sport. If a player had no pride in playing for a Nation they wouldn’t be picked. If say Scotland found themselves in the World Cup Semi Final this year plenty in Scotland would get behind them and support the team, I’d suggest far more than if they played only players born in Scotland and lost all their group games by 80+ points. People care about performances and results on the pitch, people do not care about birth certificate (other than a small number of RL fans) 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The whole idea of "value" is great when you want to dismiss something so long as you don't have to explain it, apparently.

How would you grow the game in Scotland?

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13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The grandparent eligibility rule exists in almost every sport. If a player had no pride in playing for a Nation they wouldn’t be picked. If say Scotland found themselves in the World Cup Semi Final this year plenty in Scotland would get behind them and support the team, I’d suggest far more than if they played only players born in Scotland and lost all their group games by 80+ points. People care about performances and results on the pitch, people do not care about birth certificate (other than a small number of RL fans) 

 

I don’t think you‘ve got that right at all, but we’ll never know so can agree to differ. 

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Just now, Eddie said:

I can, it’s the Tongan one.

6 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

How would you grow the game in Scotland?

That's not what the thread is about, is it?

Also my thoughts, as brilliant as they would be, are useless while I have no say in the development of the sport and no friends with power & influence.

And Eddie that is your opinion and unless you're that scottish player you can't be sure it applies.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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Just now, Oxford said:

That's not what the thread is about, is it?

Also my thoughts, as brilliant as they would be, are useless while I have no say in the development of the sport and no friends with power & influence.

And Eddie that is your opinion and unless you're that scottish player you can't be sure it applies.

So in other words you haven't got a plan to grow the game in Scotland

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Just now, The Future is League said:

So in other words you haven't got a plan to grow the game in Scotland

If you say so.

But let's say I did, it wouldn't involve being negative about the International team for a start.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Oxford said:

That's not what the thread is about, is it?

Also my thoughts, as brilliant as they would be, are useless while I have no say in the development of the sport and no friends with power & influence.

And Eddie that is your opinion and unless you're that scottish player you can't be sure it applies.

Fairly sure. Have you seen the Tongan team and fans? And have you seen the Scottish team and fans? 

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Just now, Eddie said:

Fairly sure. Have you seen the Tongan team and fans? And have you seen the Scottish team and fans? 

Well the discussion is about the players not the fans, if it were we'd all lose out to Tongan passion. And even with the players I can't help feeling you're confusing quality with love of heritage there.

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2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I can, it’s the Tongan one. 

I could play for England, Scotland or Wales. Nearly half of my great grandparents were Irish (Northern and Southern) and that is reflected in the cultural heritage too (family members playing for Celtic and Hibs for example or living in exclusively Catholic or Protestant neighbourhoods). I grew up and went to primary school with at least half the school having a similar celtic heritage to mine. Its no surprise Ireland are playing two games in Leeds in the world cup later this year. I'm sure many people with Jamaican heritage feel similar.

Whilst I am Yorkshire born and bred and love to see England win, I'd proudly represent Scotland or Wales and cheer those nations on in international tournaments. That doesn't mean I go round with a shamrock or a thistle or a leek all the time though. Comparing that with Tongan nationalism, which is a relatively new concept, is a bit flawed tbh mate - lets look at it in 50 years time to compare it with the waves of celtic migration to England eh?

I often find the anti-heritage argument to be made most strongly by those with either no connection to any other nation or a very weak one at best - a point most prominent in "middle England" in my experience which is to be expected.

Edit: to exemplify how the two migrationary cycles compare - currently around 70 to 80 thousand people a week go to games of football clubs dedicated to Irish heritage. (Thats not including Ulsterman Gers or Hearts fans or London Irish RU). Such was the celtic influence that Liverpool had an Irish Nationalist MP in the 1910s. Leeds had I believe the first Irish centre in the rest of the UK. Indeed in RL there are notable examples of amateur clubs named Celtic or Celtic related names. The majority of the Catholic church in Britain is based on Celtic immigration.

Tongan migration is newer, so doesn't have any of the above examples of long term migrations, and it is in a still hostile but eminently more friendly environment than your comparison.

Edited by Tommygilf
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I’ve always found the “pride” argument a weird one. I might be being really naive here but I would hope that any Rugby League player pulling on a jersey, whether at amateur club level in the North West Counties or an International player would have pride in the shirt and pride in themselves to represent that club or nation and to do well for their own personal reasons.

Rugby League isn’t particularly well paid for the majority of people, so I can’t imagine throwing on a Scotland jersey, for example, comes with particularly good financial remuneration, if any at all so I imagine that pride does come into it. 

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26 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Well the discussion is about the players not the fans, if it were we'd all lose out to Tongan passion. And even with the players I can't help feeling you're confusing quality with love of heritage there.

I’m not, but this is seriously tedious isn’t it so let’s agree to differ. 

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

I often find the anti-heritage argument to be made most strongly by those with either no connection to any other nation or a very weak one at best - a point most prominent in "middle England" in my experience which is to be expected.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say, in the historic sense, although people going to see Celtic and Hibs doesn’t really apply here in my opinion, nor does Irish Nationalism in 1920’s Liverpool. All I am saying is that someone who is English with one Scottish grandparent and who has never been to Scotland, isn’t Scottish, and I think having a team full of people like that devalues their national RL team. If you disagree that’s fine. 
 

Also with regards to the comment above, if you’re implying that I’m from middle England with no connection to any other nation you’re way off the mark. Only 2 of my great grandparents were English, and I think one of them had Scottish parents, and I also have two Polish (born there) grandparents. 

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2 hours ago, The Future is League said:

For me i see no value in having a squad full of heritage players. It does nothing for the game in that country or the game as a whole.

Every squad at this world cup should have at the very least half of their squad born in the country they are playing for and have a local competition with at the very least 6 teams in it.

So, not much o fa world cup then?

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"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

JohnM - 17/01/2023

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1 hour ago, Oxford said:

 

The Crichton boys will likely opt for Samoa, Walmsley a shoe in for England... so let’s go...

1: Coote

2: Russell

3: Aitken

4: Jake Wardle

5: Graham

6: McLelland

7: Brierley

8: Freebairn (he’s a talent)

9: Hood

10: Kavanagh

11: Hellewell

12: Linnett

13: Bell

-

14: Addy

15: Ferguson

16: Houghton

17: Joe Wardle

... maybe? It’s a bit light on the bench but there’s a lot of options.

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Fantastic work mate, I honestly think some teams will use your work to build squads!

Thanks buddy! My mantra has always been knowledge is helpful to the world of rugby league playing nations. It’s not about heritage vs. domestic it’s about raising awareness and giving reasons to talk about international rugby league.

I cherish the day I can sit down with my RL mates or my general sport-fan mates and debate whether it should be Brough or Brierley to lead Scotland at 7 (as an example)

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8 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

The Crichton boys will likely opt for Samoa, Walmsley a shoe in for England... so let’s go...

1: Coote

2: Russell

3: Aitken

4: Jake Wardle

5: Graham

6: McLelland

7: Brierley

8: Freebairn (he’s a talent)

9: Hood

10: Kavanagh

11: Hellewell

12: Linnett

13: Bell

-

14: Add?

15: Ferguson

16: Houghton

17: Joe Wardle

... maybe? It’s a bit light on the bench but there’s a lot of options.

Nice squad, Hood before Addy is interesting. And did you pick 3 hookers?

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think too many people get hung up on the heritage thing. Usually older people, less so the kids who will be the fans of the future.

I see no evidence of it being an "old people's" thing. 

Eddie and a few others on here are speaking an "inconvenient truth" and I am really disappointed to see how many of you prefer to bury your heads in the sand on this topic.

Here are a few facts. Ireland RL began in 1989, Scotland in the 1990s and Italy in the early 2000s. These three countries seem to share the views of many on here regarding a team full of heritage players and as a result, the game has (at best) stood still in those countries. #Fact

Heritage players are always touted as "a starting point" but it seems some countries get too comfortable there and never want to progress beyond that starting point. 

And finally @Sports Prophet

imagine this: you could be the best player in any of those three countries mentioned above, yet still have no chance of playing in a World Cup. Don't then wonder why these countries are struggling to attract/keep players and grow their leagues. 

Yep, definitely sounds like an "old man" gripe. 

Edited by langpark
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1 minute ago, langpark said:

I have seen no evidence of it being an "old people's" thing. 

Eddie and a few others on here are speaking an "inconvenient truth" and I am really disappointed to see how many of you prefer to bury your heads in the sand on this topic.

Here are a few facts. Ireland RL began in 1989, Scotland in the 1990s and Italy in the early 2000s. These three countries seem to share the views of many on here regarding a team full of heritage players and as a result, the game has (at best) stood still in those countries. #Fact

Heritage players are always touted as "a starting point" but it seems some countries get too comfortable there and never want to progress beyond that starting point. 

And finally @Sports Prophet

imagine this: you could be the best player in any of those three countries mentioned above, yet still have no chance of playing in a World Cup. Don't then wonder why these countries are struggling to attract/keep players and grow their leagues. 

Yep, definitely sounds like an "old man" gripe. 

Indeed, if lads in Scotland thought they had a chance of playing internationally and at a World Cup they might be more inclined to take the game seriously. As it is they have four (?) domestic clubs, the best of whom are in the English north east league. And as for Italy....

The flip side of this is Greece, who as I understand it have a quota of domestic players (including in their WC squad), and have a growing domestic game. 

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3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

No one from England seemed to care when a team of South Africans wearing the three lions won the Ashes.

England cricket is a bit an anomaly in that its supporters have got used to players from outside England being called in to represent it. It's been a matter of debate - some nasty and xenophobic, some just intrigued - for as long as I've been alive and years before. But even in cricket it's tightened up now. Eoin Morgan couldn't rock up now in the way he did a few years ago.

As for the 'team of South Africans' who won the Ashes in 2005. Only KP really fits that description. Strauss came to England when he was 6; Geraint Jones, who later played for PNG at cricket incidentally, might not have been a true blue Brit but his parents were Welsh and he didn't qualify for anyone else.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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