League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Doesn't matter how big Pizza is if you are only going to cut into 10 or 12 slices and let everybody else starve!

Maybe everybody else should focus on buying their own pizza and not just expect to steal a huge slice of someone else's.

[Scubby]

11 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Doesn't matter how big Pizza is if you are only going to cut into 10 or 12 slices and let everybody else starve!

The 20" pizza from a few years ago saw League 1 clubs get a bigger slice than at any point in its history. Also, it allowed the SL clubs to get a share that was as close to the baseline salary cap than at any point in SL history. Rather than build on this they pssed about with the format yet again and dumbed down the pinnacle by making the middle 8s the focus of the end of the season.

Surprise surprise the top got neglected and the pizza started shrinking. Result - 5 years on we are talking about no central funding for L1 clubs at all and a SL club on £1m. There is a commercial ceiling on anything that isn't seen as the best of the best. Hence, why the Championship can't get a £ to broadcast it's fixtures (no matter how exciting the games are).

Edited August 11, 2021 by Scubby

[Wakefield Ram]

38 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

One thing I have problems understanding is why dominance by a few clubs is so detrimental to RL. Last Sunday 'The Observer' published it's annual PL predictions from supporters of the clubs and all bar one had the top four in various orders as the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Liverpool ( the exception was the Leicester supporter who put his own club there instead of Man U). This could have been the result for a number of seasons but doesn't lessen people's interest or have Sky screaming about an uncompetitive structure.

Soccer is UKs number 1 sport and the PL is the best league in the world with many of the world's best players. England has a successful international team and even the lesser clubs can aspire to Europa League as well as Champions League. And on their day it is possible to draw with or beat the best teams as never happens in RL.

[redjonn]

16 hours ago, Scubby said:

Did they base their NFL growth plans around small towns and villages scattered either side of a highway? Some with populations of 10-20k.

Or did they expand to big population cities in a country of 300 million people.

but they didn't just one day decide to expand into other area's. They created a market of high demand that meant they could chose to move franchises/clubs to suit or able to attract fans from a wider geographical footprint than previous.

On this forum its like a magic formula that suddenly we should expand or create clubs in cities.   First we have to create that demand - that takes time.

We need a pragmatic solution that enables us to take those choices if wanted in the longer term.  Until then we may have to prune to create that chance - I haven't seen anything better proposed than some sort of pruning as a first step. as in prune with regards to money allocation to less clubs.

Edited August 11, 2021 by redjonn

[Griff]

I blame getting paid in pizzas.

There was always enough to go around when we had a pie to share.

[Scubby]

Just now, Griff said:

I blame getting paid in pizzas.

There was always enough to go around when we had a pie to share.

You want your cake and eat it I can see!

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You want your cake and eat it I can see!

Cakes were good too.

Pizzas are definitely the problem.

[Scubby]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Cakes were good too.

Pizzas are definitely the problem.

I blame this guy 

[gazza77]

Tbf, didn't we reach peak pizza in 2020?

https://insidersport-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/insidersport.com/2020/08/19/super-league-delivers-papa-johns-partnership-for-post-game-boost/?amp=&amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16286808412838&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Finsidersport.com%2F2020%2F08%2F19%2Fsuper-league-delivers-papa-johns-partnership-for-post-game-boost%2F

[Derwent Parker]

55 minutes ago, Griff said:

Cakes were good too.

Pizzas are definitely the problem.

I am getting hungry now with all the talk on food

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I didn't equate the M62 corridor with the Midwest.

You didn't eh?  As the NFL began in the Midwest with a geographic spread much the same as the NCAA Mid-American Conference, just what else do you think "their own version of the M62 corridor" could possibly be?

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

20 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

I am getting hungry now with all the talk on food

Agreed - definitely lunch time!

 

[Martyn Sadler]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’ll ignore that insult…

The constant changes to structures suggest the game’s hierarchy don’t have a clue how to solve the game’s issues; not that structures are highly significant. Otherwise it would have been solved years ago. 

Write more and more and more and more. You are in a real position of influence; you can have an effect, which people like I can’t less not spending money at the clubs. 

It wasn't an insult - it was an observation!

Like most people, I react to being patronised.

And, to be fair, it isn't normally your style.

Unfortunately I do agree with you about the game's hierarchy.

As for myself, how much influence I have these days is uncertain.

Many years ago Maurice Lindsay would telephone me on a Monday morning to debate what I'd written and to have an argument about it.

Nowadays far too many people mutter under their breath but don't make direct contact.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 hours ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

One thing I have problems understanding is why dominance by a few clubs is so detrimental to RL. Last Sunday 'The Observer' published it's annual PL predictions from supporters of the clubs and all bar one had the top four in various orders as the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Liverpool ( the exception was the Leicester supporter who put his own club there instead of Man U). This could have been the result for a number of seasons but doesn't lessen people's interest or have Sky screaming about an uncompetitive structure.

That's a highly relevant question.

I think it's because football has so much media support that the supporters of clubs other than the big four (or six, if you include Arsenal and Tottenham) are swept up in the hype that surrounds those teams and accept that those teams are the reason why the FA Premier League is so successful.

[The Frying Scotsman]

4 hours ago, Scubby said:

 There is a commercial ceiling on anything that isn't seen as the best of the best. Hence, why the Championship can't get a £ to broadcast it's fixtures (no matter how exciting the games are).

Exactly. 100%.

Yet we have the editor of a leading Rugby League magazine publishing a piece stating that Les Catalans should be playing against London Skolars, who travel to games in a minibus.

Insanity? Or simply still living in a bygone era? 

 

 

[Derwent Parker]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Maybe everybody else should focus on buying their own pizza and not just expect to steal a huge slice of someone else's.

"Steal"  Typical SL answer - you believe its all your money and nobody else should have a penny of it?  Typical GREED.

The money should have been dished out fair/equally from the start 25 year ago and allowed all teams to grow not just a select few.

All about Money you wanted Leigh in this year but didn't want to give them same as you [Greed] same with Toronto happy to let them in if they got no Central Funding - but didn't want to let them back in when they were suggesting getting a share

Now want to go to 10 so you can have more CF each [ just pure greed]

 

 

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

That's a highly relevant question.

I think it's because football has so much media support that the supporters of clubs other than the big four (or six, if you include Arsenal and Tottenham) are swept up in the hype that surrounds those teams and accept that those teams are the reason why the FA Premier League is so successful.

of course media comes into it, but that media huge interest is because of the standard of players leading to the glamour of the football in this country. That relative high standard is because of the money. That money is because of originally the top 4, then top 6 and now the top 8.

That is the top clubs have been the key catalyst bringing in the big deals, which subsequently is big enough so that even the lower standard clubs of the PL are now able to bring in international level players - thus raising those clubs playing standards.  The PL success has been spurned by the Man Utd, Liverpool's, etc leading to the huge profile and subsequent investments by multi billionaires leading to likes of Chelsea, Man City greatly adding to the competition at the top and further glamour of the sport. 

If the PL had gone the SL way in limiting the top clubs to a salary cap so low as to help the poorest/weakest clubs (or to have shared it out across the whole of the professional league structure) I don't think the huge monetary success of the PL would be as it is now.

[Damien]

54 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

"Steal"  Typical SL answer - you believe its all your money and nobody else should have a penny of it?  Typical GREED.

The money should have been dished out fair/equally from the start 25 year ago and allowed all teams to grow not just a select few.

All about Money you wanted Leigh in this year but didn't want to give them same as you [Greed] same with Toronto happy to let them in if they got no Central Funding - but didn't want to let them back in when they were suggesting getting a share

Now want to go to 10 so you can have more CF each [ just pure greed]

What a bizarre rant. I'm not sure who this you is that you keep referring to but it's certainly not me.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Exactly. 100%.

Yet we have the editor of a leading Rugby League magazine publishing a piece stating that Les Catalans should be playing against London Skolars, who travel to games in a minibus.

Insanity? Or simply still living in a bygone era? 

 

 

You really are taking obtuseness to a new level.

Under my system London Skolars would have to improve sharply, or they would be voted out of the competition in favour of an alternative, more ambitious club, possibly in France or elsewhere. One of the beauties of my system is that it would allow for natural wastage, with new clubs seeking to replace clubs that are not achieving anything.

The structure I'm advocating would place all the clubs currently in League 1 under intense pressure to improve.

And it's worth reminding you, although I'm not sure why I bother, that London Skolars could quite easily play the Catalans Dragons in the Challenge Cup, particularly as the RFL is currently proposing seven pools of five teams each for the early stages of that competition.

[Martyn Sadler]

34 minutes ago, redjonn said:

of course media comes into it, but that media huge interest is because of the standard of players leading to the glamour of the football in this country. That relative high standard is because of the money. That money is because of originally the top 4, then top 6 and now the top 8.

That is the top clubs have been the key catalyst bringing in the big deals, which subsequently is big enough so that even the lower standard clubs of the PL are now able to bring in international level players - thus raising those clubs playing standards.  The PL success has been spurned by the Man Utd, Liverpool's, etc leading to the huge profile and subsequent investments by multi billionaires leading to likes of Chelsea, Man City greatly adding to the competition at the top and further glamour of the sport. 

If the PL had gone the SL way in limiting the top clubs to a salary cap so low as to help the poorest/weakest clubs (or to have shared it out across the whole of the professional league structure) I don't think the huge monetary success of the PL would be as it is now.

Probably true, but that only goes to illustrate that football, with its massive number of players available from the many countries that play the game, can't be compared to Rugby League, with its much more limited player pool.

[redjonn]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Probably true, but that only goes to illustrate that football, with its massive number of players available from the many countries that play the game, can't be compared to Rugby League, with its much more limited player pool.

Thanks for your response. 

Agree in general but to bear in mind that yep the player pool is huge but also a massive club pool to fill.   Rugby League has a relative small professional club pool to fill with that limited player pool. So relatively I'm not sure how limiting the player pool really is or has been to the professional game. All-be-it if it continues drying up as seems to be it or if our better young players continue go off to NRL then its all  part of the downward spiral here and inter-related..  

[thebrewxi]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

Maybe everybody else should focus on buying their own pizza and not just expect to steal a huge slice of someone else's.

Depends on how big the new Papa John's deal is I guess

[The Frying Scotsman]

15 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

You really are taking obtuseness to a new level.

And it's worth reminding you, although I'm not sure why I bother, that London Skolars could quite easily play the Catalans Dragons in the Challenge Cup, particularly as the RFL is currently proposing seven pools of five teams each for the early stages of that competition.

Even a simpleton can see that the Challenge Cup (with its one off matches) is not even remotely the same as the League competition. It is a joke of a competition nowadays, that not all clubs even enter, the big guns join very late, and some clubs have to pay a deposit in case they end up getting to the final!!

How much TV money do the Clubs receive for Challenge Cup participation? 

Contrast that to the broadcast revenue from SuperLeague participation, which literally acts as the lifeblood of the professional game.

Here's a hint for you: Instead of calling people 'obtuse', concentrate on the fact that no 1.5 million per club TV money, equals no more professional Rugby League. It really is that simple.

You didn't answer me earlier.... How did you foresee the TV revenue being distributed between the 30odd clubs in your conferences? Would the pro clubs get their usual amount? Or would Workington all of a sudden get the same amount as Warrington? Additionally.... How much do you realistically think a broadcaster is going to pay for this competition which involves some professional teams playing against the likes of West Wales Ironmen-ScorpionRaiders, and Hunslet? Do you actually think they would pay the same amount as they do now? Do you think they would pay more than they do now? I would love to know how you envisaged this thing being financed. 

 

[fighting irish]

On 10/08/2021 at 16:02, Martyn Sadler said:

If the only characteristic of my proposed structure were to have West Wales playing the Catalans, Hull FC playing Coventry or St Helens playing Workington, then clearly I wouldn't be promoting the idea.

But you are right to ask the question and there are several responses I could make.

But first of all, what do you think about the World Cup groups, that pits Scotland and Italy against Australia, or Greece against England, or Jamaica and Ireland against New Zealand?

And what do you make of the Rugby Union World Cup, where the difference in standards of teams in the same groups are even more stark?

But let me give you a practical example of how the disparities in standard eventually are ironed out.

In the 1995 World Cup, the All Blacks defeated Japan 145-17.

20 years later in the World Cup of 2015 Japan defeated South Africa 34-32.

In other words, current standards don't remain current forever.

Under my proposed structure, every club would be able to see a clear pathway to making that sort of improvement. West Wales would find it much easier to attract talented young Welsh players, for example, and investors who were prepared to inject the resources that would allow the club to improve. And that would be true of all the other clubs that currently play in League 1. But if that didn't happen they could be replaced by other more ambitious clubs, perhaps from France, for example.

Under my structure the first five fixtures would be intra-conference, and the bigger clubs would visit the home grounds of the smaller clubs to generate added interest at those venues.

In the competition as a whole, each club would play against 20 other clubs, with 15 of those fixtures against clubs in the rival Conferences, with the games being played against teams at the same levels.

For example, West Wales (assuming they were the bottom club in their Conference) would play against the three lowest-finishing clubs in each of the other Conferences, while the Catalans (assuming they were the top club in that Conference) would play 15 matches against the top three teams in each of the other Conferences.

I think that in a relatively short amount of time, the six Conferences would become much more competitive and there would be considerable scope for clubs moving up and down them and for shock results, which would surely add to the entertainment value of the competition as a whole.

It's also worth pointing out that if the competition were to be sold to one or more broadcasters, the fans of all the clubs, not just the top ten, would be incentivised to buy subscriptions.

Hear hear! 

[Scubby]

32 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

You really are taking obtuseness to a new level.

Under my system London Skolars would have to improve sharply, or they would be voted out of the competition in favour of an alternative, more ambitious club, possibly in France or elsewhere. One of the beauties of my system is that it would allow for natural wastage, with new clubs seeking to replace clubs that are not achieving anything.

The structure I'm advocating would place all the clubs currently in League 1 under intense pressure to improve.

And it's worth reminding you, although I'm not sure why I bother, that London Skolars could quite easily play the Catalans Dragons in the Challenge Cup, particularly as the RFL is currently proposing seven pools of five teams each for the early stages of that competition.

So we are going to give £600k each to tiny towns like Workington, Swinton, Batley and Whitehaven to help them discover that they are not the San Francisco 49ers. And when they get pummelled for a couple of years we will punt them out and offer that place in some kind of auction house bid off to the large queue waiting to splash the cash?

Also, if Wakefield, Salford, Huddersfield and Hull KR are currently paying some of their SL squad players £15k (or less) on £1.65m central funding, what will they be able to pay them on 40% of that? This sort of plan is Route66 back to part time professional RL in the UK.