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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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2 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

One thing I dont get about the 10 team SL1 concept is what happens if a well-funded Toulouse get up there and survive alongside Catalans? That's just 8 English teams in the competition.

Assume Hull and Hull KR are 2 of those, which is very likely, then that just leaves 6 other English clubs across the Elite competition. I don't see how that helps develop the game or drive up Sky subscriptions.

This has all crossed my mind too and it's very valid. If we have Toulouse and Catalans in the 10 there will be some amount of complaints about French clubs taking 2 of the places. 10 makes no logical sense and decisions driven purely by money rarely work out well for the growth of the game.

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4 hours ago, Damien said:

This has all crossed my mind too and it's very valid. If we have Toulouse and Catalans in the 10 there will be some amount of complaints about French clubs taking 2 of the places. 10 makes no logical sense and decisions driven purely by money rarely work out well for the growth of the game.

Smaller SL clubs look at this proposal and think; if they stay in SL they'll continue to receive central funding that broadly covers the salary cap and keeps them in existence. If they get relegated they'll receive less money, but a sum that means they can still put a decent squad together and have a shot at promotion.

The bigger Championship clubs know their futures will be secured in the new SL2. They will receive more central funding than currently, the gap between them and SL will be closer, they'll have a shot at promotion to SL, and won't have to worry about relegation because the 3rd tier will have gone (or at least diminished massively). Deams of being a yo-yo club remain in place. 

If securing their own futures means jettisoning 16 other clubs in the process then 20 rugby league clubs are perfectly fine with that.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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4 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Smaller SL clubs look at this proposal and think; if they stay in SL they'll continue to receive central funding that broadly covers the salary cap and keeps them in existence. If they get relegated they'll receive less money, but a sum that means they can still put a decent squad together and have a shot at promotion.

The bigger Championship clubs know their futures will be secured in the new SL2. They will receive more central funding than currently, the gap between them and SL will be closer, they'll have a shot at promotion to SL, and won't have to worry about relegation because the 3rd tier will have gone (or at least diminished massively). Deams of being a yo-yo club remain in place. 

If securing their own futures means jettisoning 16 other clubs in the process then 20 rugby league clubs are perfectly fine with that.

As I've mention somewhere above, when you start to list those 16, think about their history, and the future which in most cases doesnt fit with the NCL so will mean most of the 16 will be wound up, it is a horrific vision of the potential imminent future for our game in this country. 

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On 05/09/2021 at 07:39, Whippet13 said:

One thing I dont get about the 10 team SL1 concept is what happens if a well-funded Toulouse get up there and survive alongside Catalans? That's just 8 English teams in the competition.

Assume Hull and Hull KR are 2 of those, which is very likely, then that just leaves 6 other English clubs across the Elite competition. I don't see how that helps develop the game or drive up Sky subscriptions.

I do recall it being said by Mr. McManus that SKY were not averse to the game expanding geographically, and had no wish to interfere with this. However Mr. McManus outlined that SKY did require a certain number of the clubs, in any form of Superleague, to be English clubs to attract English SKY subscribers and viewers. English Chairmen therefore were pushing the French to find their own paying TV deal....

Two French clubs probably doubles the chance of the French capturing a TV deal, and if Superleague has to provide SKY with 10 English clubs then this may be why Superleague are going for 12 SL clubs this next 2022 season and possibly cutting to 10 in 2023 if the French cannot in that time, find that deal especially if there are two French clubs.

Catalans produced one of SL's greatest games yesterday, but the handicap for the French is the lack of a TV deal and maybe but maybe the French Derbies next season (IF TO win promotion) could attract a lot of English viewers or better still convince French TV to show RL, with an French SL game on in France every week.....

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On 05/09/2021 at 11:18, nadera78 said:

Smaller SL clubs look at this proposal and think; if they stay in SL they'll continue to receive central funding that broadly covers the salary cap and keeps them in existence. If they get relegated they'll receive less money, but a sum that means they can still put a decent squad together and have a shot at promotion.

The bigger Championship clubs know their futures will be secured in the new SL2. They will receive more central funding than currently, the gap between them and SL will be closer, they'll have a shot at promotion to SL, and won't have to worry about relegation because the 3rd tier will have gone (or at least diminished massively). Dreams of being a yo-yo club remain in place. If securing their own futures means jettisoning 16 other clubs in the process then 20 rugby league clubs are perfectly fine with that.

I can't see how 20 clubs may get together and "jettison" 16 fellow clubs to secure a situation where if your not a "Superleague one" club at least you will be a "superleague 2" club and one good season away from the top league.

In seeing a loss of clubs coming John Davidson predicted some casualties, but not 16.

As it stands the bottom 16 include Widnes, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Barrow, Haven, Workington and Keighley - can't see them going, and these are clubs that havehad  no central funding in past years and carried on I do conceded there are a few clubs that probably only really do survive on the handouts, and may only ever survive this way......

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20 hours ago, thebrewxi said:

As I've mention somewhere above, when you start to list those 16, think about their history, and the future 

As above I would not list the "16" as the figure is spurious.

For discussion I may try to list 6..... West Wales, Hunslet, Oldham....and past that point I do not know if the chairmen at other clubs have the resources and will to up their stakes. e.g. London Skolars have a very poor record and poor crowds, but AFAIK Mr. Hector McNeil is a multi-Milliionaire....

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Hope you chaps are right. I hope no clubs go, but me thinks the rumour mill circulating is lining us up for a cull, albeit a lesser one. And as with always it will be the Covs, Skolars etc who will be wound up and driven back to the amateur game. 

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I heard that the club with the worst shirts in RL tabled a suggestion that Coventry, Skolars and West Wales are sent back to the amateur ranks. Funny because both Coventry and Skolars have beaten the club with the worst shirts in RL on more than one occasion in recent years despite that club spending a fortune on players. 

So much for the game sticking together. 

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1 hour ago, steve oates said:

Catalans produced one of SL's greatest games yesterday, but the handicap for the French is the lack of a TV deal and maybe but maybe the French Derbies next season (IF TO win promotion) could attract a lot of English viewers or better still convince French TV to show RL, with an French SL game on in France every week.....

This is the problem without long term stability offered by licensing. We still don't know if Toulouse will be in SL next season (I'm fully expecting Fev to spark a surprise like London did with Toronto a few years back). Even if Toulouse are promoted, neither them nor Catalans are safe from relegation at the end of the season. Now admittedly I know next to nothing about broadcasting deals, but I'm not sure why any TV network would be busting a gut to make a deal with a sport that might only last one year. If there was a guaranteed 3-5 years, surely this would be a much more attractive proposition and easier to sell?

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9 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

I heard that the club with the worst shirts in RL tabled a suggestion that Coventry, Skolars and West Wales are sent back to the amateur ranks. Funny because both Coventry and Skolars have beaten the club with the worst shirts in RL on more than one occasion in recent years despite that club spending a fortune on players. 

So much for the game sticking together. 

Who would this be?

This kind of attitude is thoroughly depressing. 

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15 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

This is the problem without long term stability offered by licensing. We still don't know if Toulouse will be in SL next season I'm not sure why any TV network would be busting a gut to make a deal with a sport that might only last one year. If there was a guaranteed 3-5 years, surely this would be a much more attractive proposition and easier to sell?

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

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46 minutes ago, Damien said:

Who would this be?

This kind of attitude is thoroughly depressing. 

The name begins with K. They'd like to portray they are a progressive club but they are very much in the this is a northern sport for northern people. Have to be said not all northern clubs are the same, there are some that support growth of the sport 

 

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44 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

I think this is a very fair point. I love having the French clubs involved, but it's important to quantify what value they add to the competition. I'm not sure that the RFL/SL ever considered what the 'end game' was by having them (and Toronto) involved in the British league structure. Did they ever consider the various strategic long term implications for the game, or did they just think "yeah, why not" and admit them?

If the powers-that-be want P&R, then I don't think that fits with having the French clubs in there personally. They're unable to plan long-term, and the chronic instability means that they're forever operating on a lack of foundations. I just can't see why any broadcaster would be interested in investing money and resources in to a sports comp where the 2 French clubs could feasibly not be involved in 2 years' time.

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3 hours ago, steve oates said:

I do recall it being said by Mr. McManus that SKY were not averse to the game expanding geographically, and had no wish to interfere with this. However Mr. McManus outlined that SKY did require a certain number of the clubs, in any form of Superleague, to be English clubs to attract English SKY subscribers and viewers. English Chairmen therefore were pushing the French to find their own paying TV deal....

Two French clubs probably doubles the chance of the French capturing a TV deal, and if Superleague has to provide SKY with 10 English clubs then this may be why Superleague are going for 12 SL clubs this next 2022 season and possibly cutting to 10 in 2023 if the French cannot in that time, find that deal especially if there are two French clubs.

Catalans produced one of SL's greatest games yesterday, but the handicap for the French is the lack of a TV deal and maybe but maybe the French Derbies next season (IF TO win promotion) could attract a lot of English viewers or better still convince French TV to show RL, with an French SL game on in France every week.....

No, two French clubs more than doubles the chances of a decent French TV deal.  Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity so Toulouse or another similar city being included would vastly improve the prospects of a decent TV deal.

 

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

That's a definite concern, because with Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity, SL isn't worth anything to a French broadcaster without Toulouse.

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

No, two French clubs more than doubles the chances of a decent French TV deal.  Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity so Toulouse or another similar city being included would vastly improve the prospects of a decent TV deal.

Sorry, are you trying to say Catalans aren't attractive to French TV but two RL playing "French" cities would be?

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3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think this is a very fair point. I love having the French clubs involved, but it's important to quantify what value they add to the competition. I'm not sure that the RFL/SL ever considered what the 'end game' was by having them  involved in the British league structure. Did they ever consider the various strategic long term implications for the game, or did they just think "yeah, why not" and admit them?

In 1996 Superleague Europe was formed. IIRC Paris St.Germain got a nod over the excellent Toulouse then they promptly collapsed, this led to French clubs being held at arms length, even though Toulouse had been a bit of a no brainer. They even beat Widnes in the cup to remind Superleague they should have their chance.

Then along comes expansionist Richard Lewis who looks to include France and promptly forgets Toulouse and brings in Les Catalans instead. Toulouse deserve that break after a quarter of a century. Key SL bosses however want to see a paying French TV deal and French player production line at both clubs.

Maybe someone like Audois can tell us where French TV stand?

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9 hours ago, steve oates said:

I can't see how 20 clubs may get together and "jettison" 16 fellow clubs to secure a situation where if your not a "Superleague one" club at least you will be a "superleague 2" club and one good season away from the top league.

In seeing a loss of clubs coming John Davidson predicted some casualties, but not 16.

As it stands the bottom 16 include Widnes, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Barrow, Haven, Workington and Keighley - can't see them going, and these are clubs that havehad  no central funding in past years and carried on I do conceded there are a few clubs that probably only really do survive on the handouts, and may only ever survive this way......

When did these clubs miss out on central funding and why did they miss out?

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20 hours ago, steve oates said:

I can't see how 20 clubs may get together and "jettison" 16 fellow clubs to secure a situation where if your not a "Superleague one" club at least you will be a "superleague 2" club and one good season away from the top league.

In seeing a loss of clubs coming John Davidson predicted some casualties, but not 16.

As it stands the bottom 16 include Widnes, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Barrow, Haven, Workington and Keighley - can't see them going, and these are clubs that havehad  no central funding in past years and carried on I do conceded there are a few clubs that probably only really do survive on the handouts, and may only ever survive this way......

Have they written a list of 16 clubs they're prepared to kill off? No, of course not. Do they know that by withdrawing almost all their funding some clubs will cease to operate overnight and others will wither even further than they already have to the point of being zombie clubs playing in a 3rd tier that barely operates? Yes, yes they do. Are the perfectly comfortable with that if it means they secure themselves? Absolutely.

Edited by nadera78
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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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17 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

The name begins with K. They'd like to portray they are a progressive club but they are very much in the this is a northern sport for northern people. Have to be said not all northern clubs are the same, there are some that support growth of the sport 

 

I think you may need to give some context.Was it not just a response to a proposal where all League 1 clubs were to be culled,anyway?

You may remember the response,many years ago,when Mr Hall reacted to the statement from Lenagan where only Super League clubs received money from the broadcast deal.Then Mr Hall appeared to take a vow of silence and later became RFL President/vice President.

Maybe the situation has already been resolved by the owners of the Super League clubs and the sport has been a victim of divide and rule.

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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10 hours ago, PhilCarrington said:

When did these clubs miss out on central funding and why did they miss out?

Hi Phil....   The 1996 deal saw SKY pay 87 Million for the whole game, all matches.

Then come 1999 and SKY paid only £46M and they didn't want the Championship. The championship did try to get their own deals but best they could do was a deal with "Premier Sports" which got them on TV but no money. This current deal negotiated by the RFL finally got the Championship a decent amount of money, but of course SL were livid, declared it was a big waste of money, and elbowed the RFL out of the way. 

This is why I think a lack of TV money won't lead to the established Championship clubs facing hardship. They may claim it would but they did very well for many years without TV money.

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11 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Hi Phil....   The 1996 deal saw SKY pay 87 Million for the whole game, all matches.

Then come 1999 and SKY paid only £46M and they didn't want the Championship. The championship did try to get their own deals but best they could do was a deal with "Premier Sports" which got them on TV but no money. This current deal negotiated by the RFL finally got the Championship a decent amount of money, but of course SL were livid, declared it was a big waste of money, and elbowed the RFL out of the way. 

This is why I think a lack of TV money won't lead to the established Championship clubs facing hardship. They may claim it would but they did very well for many years without TV money.

This is incorrect. The Northern Ford Premiership clubs wanted out of the contract and negotiated a fee to walk away from future payments. They were confident they would find a broadcaster elsewhere, which of course never happened. A good few years passed before Sky offered them a deal for Thursday night games, but paid only for production costs and no rights fees. Then Premier Sports came along. The Championship broadcast rights have never been worth a penny, and the figures Nigel Wood made public five years ago where for the distributions to each league not how much Sky were paying for each one.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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