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The Cornwall RLFC Thread


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46 minutes ago, Devon Ram said:

Why does Rugby League clubs need paying to travel ? does it happen in other sports ? its not long ago that the Cornish Rugby Union side used to travel up to the likes of Otley where they helped with travel costs.

 

It's probably because the clubs carrying the flag to the furthest outposts of Rugby League are the clubs least able to afford the costs.

Let's not forget that travel to France is subsidised too.  That for clubs with substantially larger turnovers than clubs in Division 3.

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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4 minutes ago, Tabby said:

I mean that is the inescapable and fundamental historic basis of RL's playerbase, so nothing too major to worry about. Its not hockey players.

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1 minute ago, Exiled red said:

If there's 500k rugby loving people already in Cornwall, why can't they muster up a top flight union side and build a relatively low cost 10k capacity stadium.

Because each brick would cost a grand.

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26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I mean you literally cannot drive to any of those places so there's a bit of a difference.

What on earth does that have to do with it? 

It's a travel subsidy, it doesn't matter whether it is for a bus, plane or trike. 

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3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I mean that is the inescapable and fundamental historic basis of RL's playerbase, so nothing too major to worry about. Its not hockey players.

Yes but he will require has he says Northern support.

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27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

RL seems to like to do things in secret, or at least, in a way that appears furtive. It's pretty easy to find out how things work for both those teams, just like it's a doddle to find out the prize fund for virtually all leagues and cups in football (something which seems to get more and more opaque in RL).

I'd agree with this. I don't understand the lack of transparency. Rimmer appears to me to be the worst we have ever had. He says very little and seems to enjoy giving politician answers and teasers. 

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19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The way it works in the Vase is that the home team pays for the travel of the away team (out of the gate receipts) and, after that, any gate revenue is shared.

So the travelling side is not out of pocket.

Only in RL. 

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11 minutes ago, Exiled red said:

If there's 500k rugby loving people already in Cornwall, why can't they muster up a top flight union side and build a relatively low cost 10k capacity stadium.

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates play on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

Actually the further I got writing that, the more I hoped Perez et al have done their homework, because sport in Cornwall is complicated...

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23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The way it works in the Vase is that the home team pays for the travel of the away team (out of the gate receipts) and, after that, any gate revenue is shared.

So the travelling side is not out of pocket.

Good knowledge, thanks. Maybe that would be a good way to do it then, as long as Cornwall’s travel to other clubs was done the same way. 

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22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

All the involved teams are also playing in regional leagues so, again, it's not a like for like comparison.

But when some folk seem to believe that RL is unique for subsidising travel (etc) as an entry requirement it is useful to point out that that's not true.

I think that is a bit of a strawman tbh; at least, I wouldn't give those people the value of my time to reply as its just clearly false.

However, we are seeing the same criticisms levelled at a new team from England as we have seen towards teams from different countries - and travel is being levelled as a significant barrier, not specifically costs either, but time too. 

Like I have put previously, I think we are potentially asking organisations to operate way beyond their capabilities and desires at all levels of the game, perhaps Cornwall's addition has just brought this into focus. I empathise with clubs in that position, but ultimately they are in a national league and have to deal with that. 

This is the first time in what, 7 years, since neither the Championship or League 1 will not have any non-UK teams in their divisions, yet criticism is been levelled at the new domestic club. I think a lot of this, from the clubs such as Rochdale which I have seen, is as much venting on the RFL and frustrations with the current scenario they face. Which is understandable.

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2 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates ply on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

 

Thanks for the info and I get the village mentality.  The attendances of the pirates don't back it up though, maybe they would if they made the premiership...very much like Exeter Chiefs when they built there new stadium.

I just don't see the cornish people getting behind a sports side on a sustainable level especially with the geographical challenges that you mention.

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5 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates play on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

Actually the further I got writing that, the more I hoped Perez et al have done their homework, because sport in Cornwall is complicated...

Tbf, Mr Hughes at London and Mr Beaumont at Leigh have also spent millions too for practically as little results. Its an expensive hobby...

Playing in Summer should give the RL side a bit of breathing room with fixture timings however.

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1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

No but you’ll need a flying device to get past the tractors,caravans & lost tourists on the A66 from Easter until Sept.

I've been to Workington in summer.  Three hours tops from a lot further away than Keighley.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What on earth does that have to do with it? 

It's a travel subsidy, it doesn't matter whether it is for a bus, plane or trike. 

There's a significant difference between hiring a coach vs a ferry or plane (on top). I mean come on Dave?

Everyone is generally speaking equal on the mainland.

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7 minutes ago, Exiled red said:

The attendances of the pirates don't back it up though, maybe they would if they made the premiership...very much like Exeter Chiefs when they built there new stadium.

I just don't see the cornish people getting behind a sports side on a sustainable level especially with the geographical challenges that you mention.

Pirates would/will be a whole other proposition in the Premiership - they already benefit from what money there is at other Level 2 clubs coming down for the weekend to watch their team play them, and that with the Premiership clubs would be magnified massively. 

I don't know whether the locals will get behind an RL side because (to be quite honest) until about 48 hours ago I'd never stopped to think about it. I'm not *sure* that I can see it but would be delighted to be wrong. The RU side probably are genuine sleeping giants though.

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Tbf, Mr Hughes at London and Mr Beaumont at Leigh have also spent millions too for practically as little results. Its an expensive hobby...

Playing in Summer should give the RL side a bit of breathing room with fixture timings however.

all true, but the roads - as someone who used to live down there - are a nightmare. No one/team is going there and back in a day in July or August for a start, unless they've got a private plane (oddly enough seats for the summer county are at a premium in the summer months). I live in Northants now and even leaving from here at 4am I'd not be confident of making it to the ground for kick off in July/August. Then you've got to get back. And overnight of course you've stayed in one of the many Cornish hotels who are happy to do one night bookings during peak season...

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actually, the more I've engaged with this thread and my own experiences of rugby union, rugby league, and living in the far southwest (and trying to get anywhere else at various times of the year), the madder I think the idea is - and I'm keen to go and watch them.

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6 hours ago, Billy King's Boots said:

Precisely this. 

Comparing Rugby League's third tier with 'what professional football does' is a misdirection.

For starters, clubs in football's third tier are full time. Doncaster Rovers receive just over £1.3 million pounds in Sky 'solidarity payments. Outside the 'giants' of Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday, Ipswich and Bolton who all pull in big crowds - third tier clubs have an average attendance of around 6,500.

League two clubs don't offer much more of a comparison. Again: full time, in 2019/20 Rochdale received a total of £1,220,000 of Premier League Funding. The average attendance in football's fourth tier is around the 4,000 mark.

For a more accurate view, you have to look at football clubs similar in status and support to a League 1 Rugby League Club.

For that you have to look down as far as football's Tier Six - for example Curzon Ashton (Tameside) and Bradford Park Avenue (W.Yorkshire). Both 'Northern' and semi-professional, they average crowds of 450 and 500 respectively - and they play in the regionalised National League North. Regionalised to help reduce the logistics and cost impacts on clubs with limited resources.
 

Spot on.

I empathise entirely with Rochdale or Keighley for example not being chuffed about this. They are comparatively tiny organisations, funded as such, and are being asked to do what clubs who get attendances 10 or more times what they do. The difference is even greater when it comes to funding. Its not really very fair.

However, perhaps one of the reasons they are in the situation they are in is because the sport doesn’t have a broad national base of support drawing in finance. We're in a catch 22 where the sport is mature in some areas but is therefore regional too. Those regions aren't wealthy, diverse or financially, strong enough to fund a national game.

To break that there is going to have to be metaphorical "teething" periods. Clubs quite simply will be overtaken in their position in the game, not replaced.

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4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

all true, but the roads - as someone who used to live down there - are a nightmare. No one/team is going there and back in a day in July or August for a start, unless they've got a private plane (oddly enough seats for the summer county are at a premium in the summer months). I live in Northants now and even leaving from here at 4am I'd not be confident of making it to the ground for kick off in July/August. Then you've got to get back. And overnight of course you've stayed in one of the many Cornish hotels who are happy to do one night bookings during peak season...

It is unfortunate that the Tamar doesn't go all the way so we could call them an island, say no, and be done with it...

I know my comment was facetious but ultimately they are part of mainland UK, an extremity yes, but a part nonetheless. So awkward as it is, the above is a just a quirk sadly.

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13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's a significant difference between hiring a coach vs a ferry or plane (on top). I mean come on Dave?

Everyone is generally speaking equal on the mainland.

Can't have it all ways. People are championing flying down to Cornwall as a solution. 

But a lot of this is scratching at the surface of the issue. Whatever we call central funding, the RFL has overseen an 80% reduction and then introduced a new substantial cost without getting the clubs on board. They have every right to be peed off with the RFL. 

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Just now, Dave T said:

Can't have it all ways. People are championing flying down to Cornwall as a solution. 

But a lot of this is scratching at the surface of the issue. Whatever we call central funding, the RFL has overseen an 80% reduction and then introduced a new substantial cost without getting the clubs on board. They have every right to be peed off with the RFL. 

I totally agree they have a right to be peed off with the RFL, and I suspect the Cornwall point is just a facet of that overall feeling. Which is perhaps why some of the complaints seem so instinctive and basic?

Flying might be a solution if you have the money and decide it is worth it, but the point is that you don't have to use any mode of transport other than road or rail - unlike the other examples mentioned.

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6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Spot on.

I empathise entirely with Rochdale or Keighley for example not being chuffed about this. They are comparatively tiny organisations, funded as such, and are being asked to do what clubs who get attendances 10 or more times what they do. The difference is even greater when it comes to funding. Its not really very fair.

However, perhaps one of the reasons they are in the situation they are in is because the sport doesn’t have a broad national base of support drawing in finance. We're in a catch 22 where the sport is mature in some areas but is therefore regional too. Those regions aren't wealthy, diverse or financially, strong enough to fund a national game.

To break that there is going to have to be metaphorical "teething" periods. Clubs quite simply will be overtaken in their position in the game, not replaced.

I agree with the principal of this - one of the big problems though, and for me a key reason why people don't buy into this vision, is that we have very few examples of it happening. Almost without exception the newer expansion clubs either go belly up or end up propping up the bottom tier.

That isn't to say they aren't adding value, but we need to see more expansion (or call them non-UK heartland) teams doing well - the French teams are helping, and Newcastle continuing to grow would be a real positive. 

But to the average RL fan they see a huge list of failures and it is easy for them to say people are not interested. It's one of the reasons I'd have supported London over every other project we have done. 

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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree they have a right to be peed off with the RFL, and I suspect the Cornwall point is just a facet of that overall feeling. Which is perhaps why some of the complaints seem so instinctive and basic?

Flying might be a solution if you have the money and decide it is worth it, but the point is that you don't have to use any mode of transport other than road or rail - unlike the other examples mentioned.

But road and rail isn't free, you pay for that just like a plane. 

The cost is substantially higher than every other game, that's why costs are relevant. Now its your prerogative to say tough, but I think its equally valid for those paying the bills to push back.

I don't think it is necessarily fair for the RFL to just palm of the costs of expansion on the existing clubs. 

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