From Eddie Waring to Adam Hills – how important is TV presentation to growth?

[Sitona]

Many sports have lost general popularity since the demise of multi sport programmes such as Grandstand and sportsnight. Both covered many sports and you would watch and pick up the basics of them all, whether it was rally cross, ice skating, show jumping, horse racing, gymnastics or rugby league. Grandstand regularly had the second half of a RL match before the football results and was watched by millions. Most people in the country knew who Hull Kingston Rovers were! Today you have to have some degree of specialist interest in a sport to choose to watch it, the authorities have to create a buzz outside the actual game to make people curious enough to tune in, which is what C4 are doing to some extent.

[Mr Frisky]

14 hours ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

One of the things my former Economics teacher taught me at school is that by the time people get into posituions of decision making power in their 50's and 60's is that they make decisions based on the world as it was rather than the world as it is and so it is when it comes to Free to Air TV.

When I was a kid there was BBC 1 and 2 and ITV so it was easy for a sport on TV to command an audience. In 2022 you have a variety of choice in multi-channel TV and family viewing habits have changed. So while it is beneficial for a sport to have some FTA coverage, it's not the panacea that some believe.

There are lots of factors affecting a sport, such as accessability to the game for young people, geographic location which affects both participation and media coverage, and the image the game itself presents in addition to whether or not it is perceived to capture the zeitgeist of this particular moment. So its wise not to obsess too much over FTA TV .

Did he also showed you how to bake amazing pies?

[Oxford]

As a truly lapsed fan I find it fascinating how some new facet for the sport can bring out a load of old myths, misunderstandings, half truths and conjectures  from the woodwork. Everyone feels that nice new coverage will change the rules of the game. The history of the damage done to to game by attitudes outside the actual coverage goes almost unnoticed. If we tracked back we could produce from the Beeb alone a litany of poor, critical and negative comments, phrases and asides in everything from the sports reporting to comedies and drama and Aunty wouldn't stand out in the media crowd in this respect. I post this because I saw the Channel 4 programme and it was different enough to make its mark. Can it overcome a long history of abuse, the market place adversity, hesitation and disaproval? Not on its own. The evidence that little will change is on these pages.

 

[Hopping Mad]

16 minutes ago, Oxford said:

As a truly lapsed fan I find it fascinating how some new facet for the sport can bring out a load of old myths, misunderstandings, half truths and conjectures  from the woodwork. Everyone feels that nice new coverage will change the rules of the game. The history of the damage done to to game by attitudes outside the actual coverage goes almost unnoticed. If we tracked back we could produce from the Beeb alone a litany of poor, critical and negative comments, phrases and asides in everything from the sports reporting to comedies and drama and Aunty wouldn't stand out in the media crowd in this respect. I post this because I saw the Channel 4 programme and it was different enough to make its mark. Can it overcome a long history of abuse, the market place adversity, hesitation and disaproval? Not on its own. The evidence that little will change is on these pages.

It's possible, without the BBC's FTA coverage, going back to the Fifties, there really would be little or no interest in rugby league outside the pockets in parts of three northern counties where it's played at the highest level.

Back in the early Eighties, at university, my circle of friends included a lad from Worcester who loved rugby league, because he'd seen it on the BBC and cottoned on to Eddie Waring. He'd never watched a live game. Imagine how excited he was when, from Liverpool, we were able to take him along to Saints, Warrington, Widnes and Wigan. And Runcorn.

Similarly, in the early Nineties, when I worked on Teesside, I had three colleagues who were rugby league fans - solely because of seeing it on the BBC. They, too, had never witnessed a live game. Until they accompanied me on several car-packed Sunday 'away days' down the A19. When rugby league switched to summer, often we could watch two games on the one Sunday. Honestly, they loved it. 

I agree, neither the BBC nor Eddie Waring (nor Ray French) were perfect, but let's not underestimate what they did to bring rugby league to the attention of those living beyond the M62, York and the Cumbria coast.

Channel 4 could do the same for another generation of youngsters.

[soulboy]

23 hours ago, Tides Of History said:

Rugby league has historically had a difficult relationship with television. From Wigan refusing to let the BBC film at Central Park for fear of a reduction in crowds, to the campaigns to remove Eddie Waring from the commentary box throughout the 1970s. Sky has come in for more criticism than ever in recent years. 

But just how important is TV presentation to potential growth for the game? 

Every once in a while there is a  change in broadcasting that comes along and shakes up the sport. I don’t think we can underestimate the importance to the image of the game in the 1980s, that we had Ray French instead of Eddie Waring commentating on the 1982 and 1986 Ashes series, as well as the 85 cup final. This was boosted by the arrival of package shows such as RL Action on ITV which gave us greater coverage for the first time. 

Nor, the advancement of production techniques adopted by BSKYB in the 1990s, which enabled a rebranding of the players as modern athletes on a par with those in other sports. We now take that for granted, but it wasn’t always central to the games image. 

No doubt, the last few years we’ve stagnated, but Channel 4 feels like a significant turning point with the opportunity for new narratives, new presenters and hopefully greater cut through. The question is, can we capitalise on it? Are the broadcasters, commentators and presenters important? I think they are but perhaps I’m wrong.  

I’ve looked at the history of our relationship with television for my latest article – and as ever I’d appreciate the your thoughts on it!

https://thecritic.co.uk/can-channel-4-shake-up-super-league/ 

 

I’ve just read the article about RL.

I can inform you it was Sam Lietch ( who had a lot of influence on Grandstand ) who came out with the “ No Waring, No Rugby League “.

I always remember on Grandstand when there was a big RL game being televised , at half time they would go to a live horse race  with absolutely no discussion about the RL match and in some cases when they’d got back to RL match it had already kicked off .

The contempt the BBC ( which they still have to this day but it’s more subtle ) had for the sport was disgraceful.

Personally I thought last weeks C4 coverage was like a breath of fresh air and in future they’ll have the rights to CC matches and Internationals.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sitona]

3 minutes ago, soulboy said:

The contempt the BBC ( which they still have to this day but it’s more subtle ) had for the sport was disgraceful.

But in addition to the RL diehards who really care about the quality of the coverage and the discussion, there were millions of casual watchers who picked up on the game while waiting for the horse racing or football results. We have lost that exposure.

My point is that now someone has to really want to watch a sport, rather than watching (and hopefully being hooked) as part of a multi sport programme.

for the big games like the Challenge Cup the BBC did it well with the whole of the Saturday devoted to it, with player interviews, ‘meet the wives’, RL themed quiz etc. it was a must watch day for much of the country 

[gogledd]

I enjoyed reading the article linked in the original post and the points raised in the posts that followed on. One programme I enjoyed was Rugby League Raw. It was late evenign bradcasting and covered rugby league from the team talk in the dressing room to the game on the pitch - probably not what is needed nowadays but it was a facinating watch even if the language was a bit industrial.

I really enjoyed the C4 coverage and, as a fan of the Last Leg, noticed the incidental coverage the game is getting due to Adam Hills chatting to his co-presenters about his presentation, and this will be in front of a largely non rugby league audience.

A huge audience for the first broadcast and lets hope they can maintain the enthusiasm and the quality.

[thebrewxi]

I grew up listening to Ray French on Saturday afternoons, and always thought he was rubbish. And I always thought it interesting they let jiffy commentate on both codes, but they would never let Ray French do the same. 

 

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

Channel 4 could do the same for another generation of youngsters.

Your points are well made but not really answering what I said just focussing on other issues.

Looking at  the few converts (which is fantastic) but in the face of the great indifference and the massive bad press this is small fry, however positive.

If Channel 4's coverage converts the Londoncentric press it will have changed the nature of game. If not, however good it might be little will have changed. Alot of this is also about the acceptance of that as routine, normal and deserved from within the sport.

I'm afraid I won't respond again as I'm so lapsed it's like talking to the great beyond but as an RL fan you'll be used to that/

 

 

 

[Hopping Mad]

50 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Your points are well made but not really answering what I said just focussing on other issues.

Looking at  the few converts (which is fantastic) but in the face of the great indifference and the massive bad press this is small fry, however positive.

If Channel 4's coverage converts the Londoncentric press it will have changed the nature of game. If not, however good it might be little will have changed. Alot of this is also about the acceptance of that as routine, normal and deserved from within the sport.

I'm afraid I won't respond again as I'm so lapsed it's like talking to the great beyond but as an RL fan you'll be used to that/

See you then.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

On 19/02/2022 at 08:45, Mr Frisky said:

Did he also showed you how to bake amazing pies?

No that's more of a Northern delicacy...

[fighting irish]

On 19/02/2022 at 15:09, Oxford said:

Your points are well made but not really answering what I said just focussing on other issues.

Looking at  the few converts (which is fantastic) but in the face of the great indifference and the massive bad press this is small fry, however positive.

If Channel 4's coverage converts the Londoncentric press it will have changed the nature of game. If not, however good it might be little will have changed. Alot of this is also about the acceptance of that as routine, normal and deserved from within the sport.

I'm afraid I won't respond again as I'm so lapsed it's like talking to the great beyond but as an RL fan you'll be used to that/

 

 

 

Well i don't know if my opinion carries any weight, with you, but i'm missing you.

My Daddy always told me, if you see a good fight, be sure and get in it. 

[RL Sonja]

While it seems it is still fashionable to parody him, a lot of the criticism of Waring doesn’t stand up to much analysis. He was clearly a rugby league person of the shrewdest calibre as his work with Dewsbury showed in the 1940s. The fact he had dementia and this impacted his commentary late in his career needs to be mentioned, especially given what we now know about that disease and its relevance to all collision sports, including our great game. 

[RL Sonja]

I'd describe this commentary as superb and near perfect - he allows the crowd and the players to tell the story without undue interference. 

(Fair kick also)

[Man of Kent]

3 hours ago, RL Sonja said:

I'd describe this commentary as superb and near perfect - he allows the crowd and the players to tell the story without undue interference. 

(Fair kick also)

You can also hear why critics of Waring thought he was detrimental! 

Waring did masses for the game - as an official, writer, broadcaster, even a travelling showman - but I do think he was a double-edged sword when it comes to the public image of RL. 

[iangidds]

On 18/02/2022 at 17:58, Martyn Sadler said:

I remember long ago reading Cliff Morgan's autobiography, which included his period as Head of Outside Broadcasts at the BBC for 12 years from 1975.

He contrasted the state of negotiations between the BBC and the two respective rugby codes, saying he much preferred dealing with the RFL rather than the RFU.

The RFL would come down and after a few minutes of chat, they would shake hands on a new deal, at which point they would retire with Cliff to the pub and swap stories about the game while getting gradually sozzled.

The RFU, on the other hand, were a complete pain in the neck. They would want to argue about every detailed aspect of the BBC's coverage, telling Cliff how their sport should be covered and refusing to agree a deal until everything they wanted was on the table.

He couldn't wait to get rid of them.

In other words we sold our game short and the RFU upsold their sport

[unapologetic pedant]

On 19/02/2022 at 12:03, thebrewxi said:

I grew up listening to Ray French on Saturday afternoons, and always thought he was rubbish. And I always thought it interesting they let jiffy commentate on both codes, but they would never let Ray French do the same. 

 

Ray fitted the BBC`s image of RL. He didn`t fit their image of RU. Despite his being equally qualified to cover both.

Had he been allowed to commentate on a 6 Nations game, a deluge of dissent from Union fans would have followed. To which the BBC would have swiftly yielded. Years of similar objections from League fans had no effect.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 19/02/2022 at 10:26, soulboy said:

I always remember on Grandstand when there was a big RL game being televised , at half time they would go to a live horse race  with absolutely no discussion about the RL match and in some cases when they’d got back to RL match it had already kicked off .

The contempt the BBC ( which they still have to this day but it’s more subtle ) had for the sport was disgraceful.

We missed the first ten minutes of the second half of one RL game to enable live coverage of the toss-up for The Boat Race.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 19/02/2022 at 15:09, Oxford said:

I'm afraid I won't respond again as I'm so lapsed it's like talking to the great beyond but as an RL fan you'll be used to that/

It`s a fork in the road if you lapse from a lapse. Could restore interest, could induce terminal ennui.