horse/ dog racing

[hw88]

7 hours ago, Josef K said:

I have zero interest in horse racing and i don’t think i have ever watched a full race. But do the paying public enjoy seeing a horse go down at a fence ?. 

Yes and no. A falling horse adds to the spectacle but nobody wants the horse/jockey to be hurt. It's the same with motor racing, everyone likes a spectacular crash but nobody wants the driver to die.

[Josef K]

12 hours ago, hw88 said:

Yes and no. A falling horse adds to the spectacle but nobody wants the horse/jockey to be hurt. It's the same with motor racing, everyone likes a spectacular crash but nobody wants the driver to die.

Ah i see, it’s really sad even though i didn’t see them die they must’ve been nasty falls. Id imagine the horses that died would have been straight on their way to a local Tesco to be thrown into a lasagna. I don’t mind Tesco’s own lasagna’s. 

[Liverpool Rover]

The irony of animal rights protestors using glue while protesting for animal welfare.

[Vambo]

5 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

The irony of animal rights protestors using glue while protesting for animal welfare.

There are plenty of glues about that don't involve animal 'ingredients'.

Gorilla glue for example. (Despite its name).

Not that I have any idea what glue they used. Simply pointing out that 'animal friendly' alternatives are available. 

 

[The Masked Poster]

Being in a minority viewpoint doesn't make you wrong - but it doesn't automatically make you right either.

Just off the top of my head, at least 2 Rugby League players have died during games, not too long ago either. Namely Danny Jones and Leon Walker. That's without googling and purely from memory, I'm fairly certain there are others and cases of players not actually dying on the pitch. 

So should RL be exempt from this scrutiny? Should any sport that involves physical exertion? They all carry a risk, so let's have consistency. I'm sure the counter argument would be that horses can't consent to racing. But neither can dogs consent to being kept as pets, or cats. So why would we allow this too? Surely any contact with animals should be out of bounds? 

If horse racing disappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't be particularly affected, so it's not as if I have a vested interest. Beyond not wanting to see any creature suffer I don't particularly care. 

But the protests will not achieve anything beyond annoying people. Rather like the ridiculous oil protests. 

[ivans82]

Interesting to read the trainer of Hill Sixteen (which had raced 26 times and never fallen) is blaming the protesters for the reason his horse fell .He said they were ready to go to the start , and told of the delays , had to take its saddle off and wash it down , re saddle and get to the start without the usual parade .All the commotion was around the first 2 fences where 8 horses fell , in the previous 4 years only 2 horses had fallen at these fences .

[Gerrumonside ref]

I’m hoping there’s a balance to be struck whereby the race can be made shorter, the fences smaller and less horses are in the field.

 

[The Phantom Horseman]

Interesting debate between Ben Newman from Animal Rising (the group that organised the Aintree protests and has been all over the media in the last week) and racing journalist/breeder Kevin Blake on BBC 5 live with Nicky Campbell this morning.

Kevin Blake wanted to know what Animal Rising would do with the current 50,000 UK thoroughbred rachorse population, and asks him that question repeatedly. The Animal Rising fella couldn't answer and pretty much had to be rescued by presenter Nicky Campbell.

 

[The Phantom Horseman]

42 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m hoping there’s a balance to be struck whereby the race can be made shorter, the fences smaller and less horses are in the field.

 

The race was reduced slightly in distance around 10 years ago, though I don't think many knowledgable people suggest that the length of the race is a major welfare factor (nobody gets upset about the Scottish National or the Eider Chase over similar distances).

The fences have been made steadily smaller and softer over the last 20 years and now bear little resemblance to those jumped in the era of Red Rum, other than the traditional spruce covering (which horses can brush through easily) remains.

Personally, I wouldn't disagree with a reduction in field size.

There is always going to be a risk involved in the Grand National, just as there will be a risk in other racing (Flat and jumps), and just as there is a risk in horses being in a field. Everyone will have a threshold for what is acceptable risk, but the Grand National wouldn't come close to being one of the animal welfare issues that would be top of my list if I were a campaigner.
 

[DavidM]

2 hours ago, ivans82 said:

Interesting to read the trainer of Hill Sixteen (which had raced 26 times and never fallen) is blaming the protesters for the reason his horse fell .He said they were ready to go to the start , and told of the delays , had to take its saddle off and wash it down , re saddle and get to the start without the usual parade .All the commotion was around the first 2 fences where 8 horses fell , in the previous 4 years only 2 horses had fallen at these fences .

Very interesting interview with Sandy Thomson . The horses are ready to go , the delay he said sent Hill Sixteen ( a fantastic jumper ) ‘hyper’ , then to get the race done they quickly got them out and compressed the starting procedures . 

[Wolford6]

1. Anyone who owns a cat is keeping a killing machine. And it kills for fun. My sister is an animal rights fanatic ... she even puts food out for rats (thought it was for a fox, but kept doing it when told that rats were eating it!). She ignores the fact that her cat loves killing things.

2. The hillside over my home village was kept as a shooting range by the owner of the Blaenavon Ironworks. Shooting was suspended in the war and never started again. Not one pheasant, partridge, grouse or quail on that ground now. Just crows, which peck lambs' eyes out.

3. The Dogstone: My Dad and his cousin shepherded up there during the war as all the adults were called up or required to work extra shifts down the mines. His ashes were scattered there.

https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/411521/

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Wolford6

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

The race was reduced slightly in distance around 10 years ago, though I don't think many knowledgable people suggest that the length of the race is a major welfare factor (nobody gets upset about the Scottish National or the Eider Chase over similar distances).

The fences have been made steadily smaller and softer over the last 20 years and now bear little resemblance to those jumped in the era of Red Rum, other than the traditional spruce covering (which horses can brush through easily) remains.

Personally, I wouldn't disagree with a reduction in field size.

There is always going to be a risk involved in the Grand National, just as there will be a risk in other racing (Flat and jumps), and just as there is a risk in horses being in a field. Everyone will have a threshold for what is acceptable risk, but the Grand National wouldn't come close to being one of the animal welfare issues that would be top of my list if I were a campaigner.
 

I always thought the length of race coupled with height of the fences was a factor contributing to potentially lethal mistakes being made by the horses when jumping when running out of stamina, but if you’re telling me that it’s not an overriding issue then I will accept that.  It is a long race though.

I’m glad you agree about the field size because I do think it could still be a great race with a smaller, but still sizeable number of entries.  I do watch a fair bit of horse racing and the irony is that one of the current industry issues is some races having too small a field.  That’s an issue with there being too many meets with not enough prize funds, but I digress.

Seems to me that there should be action taken by a sport and industry that is already looking to reconnect with the wider public (think the recent relaxation of the dress code) by addressing the welfare concerns head on and with transparency.

Equally we can’t have extremists acting in a completely counter productive fashion to the welfare of the creatures they purport to want to help.  Instead I would engage further with some of the more rational actors like the RSPCA to address their concerns.

As you say there will always be ah aspect of risk as there is in life.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[The Phantom Horseman]

45 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Seems to me that there should be action taken by a sport and industry that is already looking to reconnect with the wider public (think the recent relaxation of the dress code) by addressing the welfare concerns head on and with transparency.

 

Like these ten years ago you mean? Sadly, sensible and non-sensationalist news stories like this don't attract as much interest on social media as well-publicised protests.

https://news.sky.com/story/grand-national-fences-to-be-made-safer-10453490

[Gerrumonside ref]

9 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Like these ten years ago you mean? Sadly, sensible and non-sensationalist news stories like this don't attract as much interest on social media as well-publicised protests.

https://news.sky.com/story/grand-national-fences-to-be-made-safer-10453490

I think more steps beyond that could also be taken too to be honest according to other industry insiders

I don’t think a really defensive attitude in the media from horse racing is necessarily the way to go.

If you want to win the hearts and minds of the public over fatalities in horse racing then you’ve got to be smarter to be fair.

 

[The Phantom Horseman]

10 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think more steps beyond that could also be taken too to be honest according to other industry insiders

I don’t think a really defensive attitude in the media from horse racing is necessarily the way to go.

If you want to win the hearts and minds of the public over fatalities in horse racing then you’ve got to be smarter to be fair.

 

But the people who have attracted all the publicity want the sport abolished altogether. It's only in the news because of those protestors, and the massive media attention given to them before and after the race.

[hw88]

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m hoping there’s a balance to be struck whereby the race can be made shorter, the fences smaller and less horses are in the field.

 

Then it wouldn't be the Grand National.

[DI Keith Fowler]

33 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Like these ten years ago you mean? Sadly, sensible and non-sensationalist news stories like this don't attract as much interest on social media as well-publicised protests.

https://news.sky.com/story/grand-national-fences-to-be-made-safer-10453490

I think people appreciate there's improvements made but it's still 5 dead in the 10 years since. So 50% of the time a horse dies. You've got to appreciate to the average person how mad that sounds. 

[hw88]

11 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

But the people who have attracted all the publicity want the sport abolished altogether. It's only in the news because of those protestors, and the massive media attention given to them before and after the race.

These people won't be happy until we are all vegan and the only sports permitted are yoga and non-contact tai chi.

[The Phantom Horseman]

45 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

I think people appreciate there's improvements made but it's still 5 dead in the 10 years since. So 50% of the time a horse dies. You've got to appreciate to the average person how mad that sounds. 

Yes, that's a fair point, but the average person is just seeing headline stories and not contextualising them.

For instance, a survey by the British Horse Society three years ago showed that 80 horses had been killed in the previous year as a result of road traffic accidents. I don't know if that year was an outlier, but it seems reasonable to assume that several hundred horses have been killed in RTA's over the same time span, and their suffering would have lasted a lot longer.

I understand it's a different equine area but fundamentally it comes down to how we all judge acceptable or non-acceptable risk in how humans use animals.

Edited April 17, 2023 by The Phantom Horseman

[Gerrumonside ref]

32 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Then it wouldn't be the Grand National.

It would - just as how it has changed from its inception and throughout its lifespan.

It could still be a great race but made safer.

To be honest I don’t think many people as a % who watch it are standard race goers so it could definitely be streamlined for safety reasons to make it suit the attitudes of it’s time.

[Gerrumonside ref]

44 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

But the people who have attracted all the publicity want the sport abolished altogether. It's only in the news because of those protestors, and the massive media attention given to them before and after the race.

There’s an extreme element that have latched onto a long standing issue and concern over horse welfare at the Grand National.

Thar is why I’m saying you engage with the more rational voices now who want dialogue over horse welfare to try and achieve their backing.

Of course there’s an extreme element that you’ll never placate so it is a case of winning over public opinion by having a transparent relationship with those that do see a middle ground.

 

[The Phantom Horseman]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

There’s an extreme element that have latched onto a long standing issue and concern over horse welfare at the Grand National.

Thar is why I’m saying you engage with the more rational voices now who want dialogue over horse welfare to try and achieve their backing.

Of course there’s an extreme element that you’ll never placate so it is a case of winning over public opinion by having a transparent relationship with those that do see a middle ground.

 

I agree with pretty much all that, though I'd say people in horseracing have been doing all that for many years.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, The Phantom Horseman said:

I agree with pretty much all that, though I'd say people in horseracing have been doing all that for many years.

You’re right of course and I think then it’s best that it continues in that fashion.

 

 

[hw88]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

It would - just as how it has changed from its inception and throughout its lifespan.

It could still be a great race but made safer.

To be honest I don’t think many people as a % who watch it are standard race goers so it could definitely be streamlined for safety reasons to make it suit the attitudes of it’s time.

If it were made shorter with fewer fences and a smaller field it wouldn't be the Grand National, just another steeplechase. It has 30 fences and is over 4 miles to make it the ultimate challenge and differentiate it from other races.

You are correct in that it has changed over the years and it is now a pale imitation if what it once was. Ironically more horses have been killed since the course was made safer - 1970s & 80s - 12 deaths in 20 years, 1990s-2010 (after the course was made 'safer') - 17 deaths.

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, hw88 said:

If it were made shorter with fewer fences and a smaller field it wouldn't be the Grand National, just another steeplechase. It has 30 fences and is over 4 miles to make it the ultimate challenge and differentiate it from other races.

You are correct in that it has changed over the years and it is now a pale imitation if what it once was. Ironically more horses have been killed since the course was made safer - 1970s & 80s - 12 deaths in 20 years, 1990s-2010 (after the course was made 'safer') - 17 deaths.

I’m a longtime horse racing fan (to give you some context), but I do see change coming from this weekend and attempts to make it safer for the horses.

You may not agree with it, but I think it’s inevitable now that something more will be done to win the battle for hearts and minds.

It may tarnish things for the purist, but I think sponsors and money will talk more loudly.

I would include general security which is going to be annoying for race goers and maybe impractical for some of the smaller events.

Getting the balance right is going to be difficult.