Jump to content

Saints domination - boring?


Recommended Posts

24 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I get that we follow a fascinating game, I am simply intrigued as to the point at which total domination and pretty much foregone conclusions for decades becomes boring. My view won’t change anything, but I am interested in why, say, Wigan’s domination over a shorter period should have been viewed as Bad for the Game, whereas Saints’ domination over a far longer period passes pretty much without comment. Indeed, this is the only thread I can remember on here which even touches on the subject. As I set out above, I believe that, by 2024 Wigan might be in a position to challenge, but even that might not happen. If 4 in a row is fine, is 5, is 6, is 10? 

I don’t of course expect any Saints fan to see this state of affairs as anything other than fantastic. Indeed, they are now so far ahead they can field reserves when they feel like it (I wonder how fair that is for the competition - god forbid the 2 points gifted to Cas will be the difference in the relegation race at the end of the year...), which is indicative of their appraisal of the opposition.

There seems very few of us who are “concerned” about never ending dominance this year, but I think this will be worth pinning for years to come. 

Wigan's dominance was based largely on their ability to just go out and buy pretty much any player they wanted and they were the only full time team of players for most of that period.

While they did bring through a lot of their own youngsters as well those youngsters benefitted by being full time and by being able to develop at a better rate than youngsters at all other clubs. When you then add in the fact they bought the best players from every other club (Gregory, Lydon, Hanley, Platt, Offiah etc.) its no wonder they were so dominant for so long.

Its arguably more impressive to be the dominant team now because everyone in SL is full time and everyone operates under a SC meaning they can't just go out any buy up every good player in the league. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


18 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Wigan's dominance was based largely on their ability to just go out and buy pretty much any player they wanted and they were the only full time team of players for most of that period.

While they did bring through a lot of their own youngsters as well those youngsters benefitted by being full time and by being able to develop at a better rate than youngsters at all other clubs. When you then add in the fact they bought the best players from every other club (Gregory, Lydon, Hanley, Platt, Offiah etc.) its no wonder they were so dominant for so long.

Its arguably more impressive to be the dominant team now because everyone in SL is full time and everyone operates under a SC meaning they can't just go out any buy up every good player in the league. 

So much incorrect in a single post.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Damien said:

So much incorrect in a single post.

Which part exactly ?

The full time Wigan and part time everyone else part, the wigan youngsters getting full time contracts while other clubs youngsters had jobs part, or the Wigan buying all the top players at the other clubs part ?

Leeds were the only other club that went full time during that period of Wigan dominance but made a pretty shambolic effort of it, not really being any better than the part-timers.

Wigan would not have been as dominant as they were during that period without their unrestricted buying power & salaries and them being able to train full time. Its no coincidence that their dominance ended with the advent of SL and there being a much more level playing field. 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Which part exactly ?

The full time Wigan and part time everyone else part, the wigan youngsters getting full time contracts while other clubs youngsters had jobs part, or the Wigan buying all the top players at the other clubs part ?

Leeds were the only other club that went full time during that period of Wigan dominance but made a pretty shambolic effort of it, not really being any better than the part-timers.

Wigan would not have been as dominant as they were during that period without their unrestricted buying power & salaries and them being able to train full time. Its no coincidence that their dominance ended with the advent of SL and there being a much more level playing field. 

Toprov - we would expect nothing less of you. Not only are your Saints more successful - indeed having the longest period of dominance the game has ever known. But it is better success than ever before. And not only are you laying waste to Wigan now, but Wigan's past must be destroyed along the way. Saints fans - it's impossible not to love them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Toprov - we would expect nothing less of you. Not only are your Saints more successful - indeed having the longest period of dominance the game has ever known. But it is better success than ever before. And not only are you laying waste to Wigan now, but Wigan's past must be destroyed along the way. Saints fans - it's impossible not to love them. 

How is what i've said destroying Wigan's past - its the reality of how things were during that period.

They had more money than anyone else with no salary cap, they had a full time professional squad when most others were part time and they went out and bought most of the top players around that time, and on the back of that they achieved utter dominance over the league & cup.

I also don't think its unreasonable to suggest that without those things in their favour they wouldn't have had the same level of dominance. It certainly came to an abrupt end at the start of SL when they suddenly had 11 other full time professional teams to compete against every week and a SC that stopped them from buying up any player they wanted.

  • Like 3

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I get that we follow a fascinating game, I am simply intrigued as to the point at which total domination and pretty much foregone conclusions for decades becomes boring. My view won’t change anything, but I am interested in why, say, Wigan’s domination over a shorter period should have been viewed as Bad for the Game, whereas Saints’ domination over a far longer period passes pretty much without comment. Indeed, this is the only thread I can remember on here which even touches on the subject. As I set out above, I believe that, by 2024 Wigan might be in a position to challenge, but even that might not happen. If 4 in a row is fine, is 5, is 6, is 10? 

I don’t of course expect any Saints fan to see this state of affairs as anything other than fantastic. Indeed, they are now so far ahead they can field reserves when they feel like it (I wonder how fair that is for the competition - god forbid the 2 points gifted to Cas will be the difference in the relegation race at the end of the year...), which is indicative of their appraisal of the opposition.

There seems very few of us who are “concerned” about never ending dominance this year, but I think this will be worth pinning for years to come. 

This has been discussed in the past regarding Wigans historic dominance and as in this thread there are mixed views, but some even argued that Wigan raised the profile of the game back then and that dominance was good for the game. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

How is what i've said destroying Wigan's past - its the reality of how things were during that period.

They had more money than anyone else with no salary cap, they had a full time professional squad when most others were part time and they went out and bought most of the top players around that time, and on the back of that they achieved utter dominance over the league & cup.

I also don't think its unreasonable to suggest that without those things in their favour they wouldn't have had the same level of dominance. It certainly came to an abrupt end at the start of SL when they suddenly had 11 other full time professional teams to compete against every week and a SC that stopped them from buying up any player they wanted.

I didn’t mean to contradict you. I think it is remarkable the spin you put on everything. You are the very definition of a super fan. I don’t know what any of us would do if you ever found a reason to criticise the MIGHTY SAINTS! 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

If Cas can't get a 30-40 point win against the team Saints are putting out tomorrow then they have no hope. Saints are without Makinson, Hopoate, Hurrell, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Lees, Mata'utia, Batchelor, Sironen, Knowles & Paasi 

I'm actually looking forward to watching this game even though they're likely to get a hammering. Will get a good glimpse into the future of the club. A couple of youngsters in particular i'm hoping take their chance, Taylor Pemberton who is likely to be Lussick's understudy next year when Roby retires, Forward Lewis Baxter who had a stellar junior career before being out for a year with a serious injury, and scrum half Ellis Archer who could push for a regular 1st team spot with Dodd's season ending injury.

That's nearly a full team,are they all injured? If so will they all be back for the semi final ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

How is what i've said destroying Wigan's past - its the reality of how things were during that period.

They had more money than anyone else with no salary cap, they had a full time professional squad when most others were part time and they went out and bought most of the top players around that time, and on the back of that they achieved utter dominance over the league & cup.

I also don't think its unreasonable to suggest that without those things in their favour they wouldn't have had the same level of dominance. It certainly came to an abrupt end at the start of SL when they suddenly had 11 other full time professional teams to compete against every week and a SC that stopped them from buying up any player they wanted.

Neil Hanson in his book Blood, Mud and Glory lists the professions of the Wigan team in 1991. Over half the squad was not full time. They really were no different than many other teams at that time.

Most of the top players? Odd that players like Ellery Hanley and Shaun Wane went to Leeds from Wigan for more money. Its also odd that plenty of other clubs were splashing the cash and signing RU players like John Gallagher, Craig Innes  and Dai Young for huge money, that Widnes had a champion team and in later years Warrington had players like Jonathan Davies. Even the likes of Scott Gibbs chose Saints over Wigan because he was offered more money there.

The fact is Wigan just spent more wisely and it was their professionalism off the field that was the big differentiator. The appointment of Graeme Lowe led to the club stealing a march on everyone else when it came to professionalism and then this was taken on another level by John Monie. This created a winning culture and aura that made them hard to beat for a very long time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm actually looking forward to watching this game even though they're likely to get a hammering. Will get a good glimpse into the future of the club.

I am looking forward to your review of the Saints youngsters in this game.  I wonder if you will be kinder to him than you were to Dom Young who's debut for the Giants as a 17 year you described as (and I quote) "he was absolutely awful that day with numerous dropped balls, missed tackles and poor positioning, with him at fault for several of the Saints try's."

(By the way, the video of this game's tries are still on the Sky Sports website so anyone can actually take a look and see that none of the Saints tries went anywhere near Young https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/st-helens-vs-huddersfield/50466).

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

That's nearly a full team,are they all injured? If so will they all be back for the semi final ?

Suspended - Hurrell & Sironen

Injured - Hopoate, Grace, Dodd, Mata'utia

Out through Concussion protocols - Knowles

The rest Woolf says have knocks and minor niggling injuries and he wants them fully fit for the CC SF.

Hopoate & Knowles should be back for Salford as should all the others with minor knocks. Hurrell & Sironen will be back for the SF and he said Grace has an outside chance of also being back for the SF.

It shouldn't really come as much of a surprise, the last few years Saints have deliberately fielded a weakened team at least once in a season in order to prioritize other games they see as more important. They've done it against Salford twice and London twice, losing all 4 games, all be it one of those Salford games was only decided by a late Inu try and Saints young winger Nisbet knocking on over the try line

  • Thanks 1

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I am looking forward to your review of the Saints youngsters in this game.  I wonder if you will be kinder to him than you were to Dom Young who's debut for the Giants as a 17 year you described as (and I quote) "he was absolutely awful that day with numerous dropped balls, missed tackles and poor positioning, with him at fault for several of the Saints try's."

(By the way, the video of this game's tries are still on the Sky Sports website so anyone can actually take a look and see that none of the Saints tries went anywhere near Young https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/st-helens-vs-huddersfield/50466).

Aaaww bless, still wearing your 'Doms an NRL superstar' panties 😁

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Saint Toppy said:

Aaaww bless, still wearing your 'Doms an NRL superstar' panties 😁

I just don't like it when someone makes up stuff to rubbish the performance of a 17 year old making his professional Rugby League debut.

I'm funny like that.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I just don't like it when someone makes up stuff to rubbish the performance of a 17 year old making his professional Rugby League debut.

I'm funny like that.

I bet you've still got your 'stop Brexit' flags & posters up as well haven't you !!😆

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I bet you've still got your 'stop Brexit' flags & posters up as well haven't you !!😆

Here's an idea seeing as though we are on a Rugby League site.

You tell me which of the 'several' Saints tries Young was at fault for and I promise I won't mention it again.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/st-helens-vs-huddersfield/50466

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Here's an idea seeing as though we are on a Rugby League site.

You tell me which of the 'several' Saints tries Young was at fault for and I promise I won't mention it again.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/st-helens-vs-huddersfield/50466

NO!!!! Don’t use facts! Sheer madness - he’s from the Moskva makes a beautiful submarine school of spin. This will not end well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've not got a problem with Saints being the dominant force, they've built up over a number of years using a very good academy system and a strong culture within the club, almost every youngster Saints have blooded over the last decade or so years have come good and become an integral part of the team's successes, something I'm hopeful Ian Watson can replicate at the Giants.

They play with a real high energy and intensity and strangle the opposition rather than just blow them out of the water, last week's game at Huddersfield was a real tough slog for them as they came upon a team able to match their intensity and energy, at least for 60-65 minutes, but in the end they pulled away slightly.

They obviously decided 8-10 years ago that they were going to build for the long term, around homegrown people like Roby, Lomax, Thompson, Knowles, Makinson, Percival, Grace, Swift, aided by good recruitments in LMS, Amor, Walmsley, these players are still very much the spine and beating heart of the team, except Swift, but he was an integral part of the side for a number of years.

Other clubs , my own included, seem to want to go for a short term, quick fix solution, which hasn't worked and only helped strengthened Saints' domination, it will end soon though as these things go in cycles, question is, who will take up the saddle?

Edited by meast
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Incidentally, I watched the Giants v Saints scholarship game last night, and despite the Giants being quite a skilful side, they were blown away by a Saints side who had some absolute monsters playing for them, some of them looked like 16 yr. olds in 30 yr. old bodies, they were massive and just literally swept their way through the Giants to rack up a 44-0 lead before the hour,  to be fair, we did mount a comeback in the last 12 minutes to make it a relatively respectable 16-44.

But if that's what Saints are producing at 15,16 & 17 then god help us 😮 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One for the Saints fans.  Do we know of the Academy tour to Australia is back this year after the two year break for you know what... I always enjoyed seeing the young Saints kids do so well down under.

  • Like 1

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, meast said:

Incidentally, I watched the Giants v Saints scholarship game last night, and despite the Giants being quite a skilful side, they were blown away by a Saints side who had some absolute monsters playing for them, some of them looked like 16 yr. olds in 30 yr. old bodies, they were massive and just literally swept their way through the Giants to rack up a 44-0 lead before the hour,  to be fair, we did mount a comeback in the last 12 minutes to make it a relatively respectable 16-44.

But if that's what Saints are producing at 15,16 & 17 then god help us 😮 

Taking this and your other post “these things don’t go in cycles” - they have been dominant for the last 25 years, save only for Leeds’ freakish run. They don’t go in cycles in Scottish, French or German football. It has been over 50 years since we last beat the Aussies, Things don’t end just because they have gone on a long time. 

The crushing strength in depth of the next generation doesn’t surprise me in the least. Look at the best young players, and most of them play for Saints - even where talent emerges elsewhere it usually fails to kick on or leaves these shores - you could have built a team around Pryce but it looks like the Aussie vultures have come calling. I think it’ll be a long long time before anyone gets even close. If I were a betting man, I would put money on Saints winning 6 in a row, having a freakish defeat and then going on another long run. 

What’s interesting is that “you’ve got no problem” with it. Which seems to be the consensus on here - aside from the OP and me very few are bored by it: and no Saints fans are bored of course - how could they be when the most jeopardy they face each year is whether their reserves can beat a full strength SL side.

There are many tangents on this thread, but it would be interesting to know after how many more years of domination it would take to become boring for people? 

Edited by Exiled Wiganer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Taking this and your other post “these things don’t go in cycles” - they have been dominant for the last 25 years, save only for Leeds’ freakish run. They don’t go in cycles in Scottish, French or German football. It has been over 50 years since we last beat the Aussies, Things don’t end just because they have gone on a long time. 

The crushing strength in depth of the next generation doesn’t surprise me in the least. Look at the best young players, and most of them play for Saints - even where talent emerges elsewhere it usually fails to kick on or leaves these shores - you could have built a team around Pryce but it looks like the Aussie vultures have come calling. I think it’ll be a long long time before anyone gets even close. If I were a betting man, I would put money on Saints winning 6 in a row, having a freakish defeat and then going on another long run. 

What’s interesting is that “you’ve got no problem” with it. Which seems to be the consensus on here - aside from the OP and me very few are bored by it: and no Saints fans are bored of course - how could they be when the most jeopardy they face each year is whether their reserves can beat a full strength SL side.

There are many tangents on this thread, but it would be interesting to know after how many more years of domination it would take to become boring for people? 

I seem to remember Wigan winning the SL academy for about 7 years in a row up until 2019, or is that not what you're on about?

Wigan haven't done too bad in terms of academy and producing first team regulars able to win trophies, not sure why you're het up about Saints?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

 

There are many tangents on this thread, but it would be interesting to know after how many more years of domination it would take to become boring for people? 

OK, I'll have a go...

It became boring when Saints won their first one, it has remained boring ever since and it will continue to be boring until the end of time.

Hope that helps.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Taking this and your other post “these things don’t go in cycles” - they have been dominant for the last 25 years, save only for Leeds’ freakish run. They don’t go in cycles in Scottish, French or German football. It has been over 50 years since we last beat the Aussies, Things don’t end just because they have gone on a long time. 

I think you are overstating this 25 year dominance.

When Super League started, Saints won 4 of the first 7 titles.

They have won the last 3.

In between these two bookends, Saints won 2 titles in 16 years.  That really isn't 25 years of dominance.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...