Jump to content

This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce


Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Even if that demand ticked all boxes?

 

I would say yes.. mainly because its what you see elsewhere in franchise systems, there are always more bidders than there are franchises available really. You do, of course, get situations where they do say "ok this is good so in 2 years we will add another 2 and yours will be one we now need another". So the league is always in control.. You make it something people will actually out bid each other for and give you more than what you are asking for.. If you look at American Sports its where a lot of money is invested by cities and councils to build new stadiums, its also something the franchise owners use to get these from the cities or they'll move... 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, steve oates said:

I don't get this at all.

The reality is that many established clubs  have been up for grabs for years and rich businessmen come along and buy the clubs for a token sum and then enjoy putting their money into the said club. As it stands now a very rich person could perhaps take on the Bulls simply by paying a fiver for them.  Nige would let them have it if it meant the new owner would be happy to put a couple of £Million or more a year into the club in a quest to return to Superleague.  Widnes is a club that a rich RL fan may want to take over for a tenner and pay Millions to improve the team and get the fans back.

As for Dublin if someone wanted to spend Millions there, could they not just buy out West Wales and move the club to a ground in Dublin and spend their Millions on improving the team, gradually going up through the leagues? The idea someone in the game, say the RFL/SL create a "Franchise" with an SL guarantee and sell it for £Millions seems like utter nonsense.

It's supply and demand, and there are already many more clubs wanting a rich owner to take them over than there are rich people to buy them.  Rich people who do but them tens to be Northeners.  Didn't Cornwall cost Mr. Perez a tenner??

I'd agree with SC here... its hypothetical but with franchising you pull up the drawbridge so its the only access... right now you can invest that money and not even get to Super League or you can get in then relegated quite quick etc... with a franchise you are guaranteed time and therefore you should get a good ROI if you are good at what you do and invest well..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

To understand this you must understand that the mindset of a billionaire is very different to that of you or I

The questions will always be what's the attraction or what's in it for them that might motivate said billionaire. There's a certain amount of credence and fashionability to owning a Soccer outfit but what would the worthwhileness be in acquiring an RL franchise. It's not like you'd get on telly or in the papers or gain the respect of the RL community or the wider public by owning one.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, RP London said:

I think "fairly easy" is simplifying it massively. Form the outside you may think that but they did a huge amount of work to get to this point. They were fortunate that the Odyssey arena is fairly neutral ground, as mentioned earlier if we were to share a ground with someone we have to be aware of the impact that would have, so in that sense the Giants were lucky. However, pre starting and very much in their early days they have worked hard within Belfast and Northern Ireland to push the neutrality and the "safe space" that is the ice hockey. This is not easy and trying to keep out certain types that would have happily taken it one way or the other was hard work for them.

Now that it is established as it is it is much easier yes. They have banned flags that have any national leanings or can give away a religion, they have banned football shirts etc too. Little things that are easy now but are only easy on the back of all the hard work they put in at the beginning. 

It is, definitely, a great selling point though and one we would need IMHO

Ice hockey isn't seen as a ' British ' sport , therefore is easier to accept , RL is a British sport , albeit a long way from the British establishment , still from across the Irish sea 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do we want? A Super League with English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and French sides backed by a proper international calendar that would be a wholly different broadcast proposition for relatively low outlay compared to other sports!

When do we want it? In a reasonable timeframe!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

What do we want? A Super League with English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and French sides backed by a proper international calendar that would be a wholly different broadcast proposition for relatively low outlay compared to other sports!

When do we want it? In a reasonable timeframe!

That would seem to be what this is all about.

I wonder who the English ones will be? I wonder who will pay the price for this to happen?

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

That would seem to be what this is all about.

I wonder who the English ones will be? I wonder who will pay the price for this to happen?

IMG would presumably produce the content then - with the RFL/SL - sell it globally, hopefully bringing in far more than the bare minimum Sky currently pays us. There’s a helluva lot of TV sport channels in the world that need decent content. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

IMG would presumably produce the content then - with the RFL/SL - sell it globally, hopefully bringing in far more than the bare minimum Sky currently pays us. There’s a helluva lot of TV sport channels in the world that need decent content. 

I think that's very much the plan .....

I imagine they'll be a fair few folk that this will be the last straw for.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

What do we want? A Super League with English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and French sides backed by a proper international calendar that would be a wholly different broadcast proposition for relatively low outlay compared to other sports!

When do we want it? In a reasonable timeframe!

I suppose the question that needs answering is would there be any real commercial value in having a Scottish, Irish and Welsh team in the league?

Even if we got a relatively decent presence in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin, I wonder whether that would really move the dial on commercial value. 

It certainly feels like the right thing to do instinctively, but we do already have TV deals in these territories anyway. 

I think maybe the objective is how we get 12+ strong teams, maybe geographical focus is a secondary consideration - although saturation may suggest that focusing on these areas is the way of getting 12+ big clubs. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you make a good point. Just introducing new teams itself isn't enough.

I watched an interview with a horse racing executive today about attendances. His strategy was to get out there and to get different groups interested. Bring the product to them. So they were offering free stable tours to young groups of people. Involving minority groups in the sport.  He stressed they would have to do this for years to sustain it. 

Of course they have the horses which attract young people initially.🙂

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think maybe the objective is how we get 12+ strong teams, maybe geographical focus is a secondary consideration - although saturation may suggest that focusing on these areas is the way of getting 12+ big clubs

Yes.

As mentioned before, IMG is said to keen on growing the international game and having clubs in Ireland, Scotland and Wales would strengthen it. It’s not hard to imagine heritage players turning out for these clubs. 

From a commercial POV, IMG’s thinking seems to be focused on on TV rights. There may be existing deals but their value is unknown and almost certainly minimal. 

We know France has been a problem but maybe with an enhanced offer it will bring in actual money - even if initially packaged up by IMG with other sports. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Yes.

As mentioned before, IMG is said to keen on growing the international game and having clubs in Ireland, Scotland and Wales would strengthen it. It’s not hard to imagine heritage players turning out for these clubs. 

From a commercial POV, IMG’s thinking seems to be focused on on TV rights. There may be existing deals but their value is unknown and almost certainly minimal. 

We know France has been a problem but maybe with an enhanced offer it will bring in actual money - even if initially packaged up by IMG with other sports. 

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The places mentioned have modest RU clubs, I'm not sure we will build bigger RL clubs than them, in the short term at least. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To grow a business you must first accept your strengths and weaknesses, each provide threats and opportunities. You focus on your strengths and opportunities - starting with your low hanging fruit and the firm knowledge that your existing customers are your best ones.

We have to be realistic with goals - we will not attract the money the Premier League does but is a goal of 5-10% achievable, 5% is £75m pa and that figure would be the catalyst to transform our sport yet only about a third of the Aus deals - hopefully a FTA proper contract can help.

We should never forget 16m people live in the North of England, a huge number of whom will have had some contact or knowledge of RL. Many Northern folk migrate South for opportunity, many RU supporting Welshmen are aware of RL add in S. France and you are looking at your low hanging fruit for Stage 1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Niels said:

I watched an interview with a horse racing executive today about attendances. His strategy was to get out there and to get different groups interested. Bring the product to them. So they were offering free stable tours to young groups of people. Involving minority groups in the sport.  He stressed they would have to do this for years to sustain it. 

Of course they have the horses which attract young people initially.🙂

A really interesting comparison, thanks. We're not the only sport struggling with this challenge, but as the executive says, there's no quick fix. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The places mentioned have modest RU clubs, I'm not sure we will build bigger RL clubs than them, in the short term at least. 

Completely agree. 

There are plenty of candidates in the existing structure who could target that 10k goal if the backing and intention was there, some of whom already have a stadium. 

I think all the talk about Wales, Scotland and Ireland (pop 15m) is a distraction from doing the hard work in England (pop 55m). 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the question that needs answering is would there be any real commercial value in having a Scottish, Irish and Welsh team in the league?

Even if we got a relatively decent presence in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin, I wonder whether that would really move the dial on commercial value. 

It certainly feels like the right thing to do instinctively, but we do already have TV deals in these territories anyway. 

I think maybe the objective is how we get 12+ strong teams, maybe geographical focus is a secondary consideration - although saturation may suggest that focusing on these areas is the way of getting 12+ big clubs. 

I think perception is a big thing at play here too Dave, and accessibility is a part of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The low hanging fruit is the international game (club/country). All the pieces exist, they just need to be put together. Organisation, in essence. 

It would be great to have 10k crowds but we get too hung up on crowds. TV rights are more important. Ask the Aussies. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think perception is a big thing at play here too Dave, and accessibility is a part of that.

Yep, I agree, and that is where these things can often become difficult to quantify and get buy in. 

In my day job, it can sometimes be difficult to justify certain changes financially, but they are just the right thing to do, but when we are potentially talking huge amounts of money to deliver it becomes challenging. 

Perception works both ways as well here, we need to be careful of reckless top down expansion that just fails again. We need to put the right framework in place to have the best chance of success. 

I'm always on board with geographical expansion, but I just wonder whether getting a 10k club (a basic measure of a big club) in Scotland would be more valuable to the game than a 10k club in say, Newcastle. 

Catalans helps the image of SL greatly imo, they tick very many boxes, but we've still struggled to monetise their presence. 

A realistic aim should be to put on good looking TV events every weekend - at the moment we have too many events that look uninteresting. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The low hanging fruit is the international game (club/country). All the pieces exist, they just need to be put together. Organisation, in essence. 

It would be great to have 10k crowds but we get too hung up on crowds. TV rights are more important. Ask the Aussies. 

That does bring us back to the S8's though that brought us record investment from Sky but was scrapped because the likes of Cas complained that the crowd for the 2nd game against Saints was down by 1k for example. 

There is a balance to be had here. I don't think there is much that suggests a team in Scotland and Wales brings TV value, although there is maybe a common sense approach that says wider geographical footprint should lead to higher figures, but I'm not sure that translates into extra millions. 

The point about crowds is that they bring in more money, present a more vibrant comp and allow for more competitive clubs to deliver a better TV product for Sky to want to buy. 

Internationals - absolutely agree, but tbh I think IMG will focus on the Southern Hemisphere teams here, although I do think France will remain a project here. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep, I agree, and that is where these things can often become difficult to quantify and get buy in. 

In my day job, it can sometimes be difficult to justify certain changes financially, but they are just the right thing to do, but when we are potentially talking huge amounts of money to deliver it becomes challenging. 

Perception works both ways as well here, we need to be careful of reckless top down expansion that just fails again. We need to put the right framework in place to have the best chance of success. 

I'm always on board with geographical expansion, but I just wonder whether getting a 10k club (a basic measure of a big club) in Scotland would be more valuable to the game than a 10k club in say, Newcastle. 

Catalans helps the image of SL greatly imo, they tick very many boxes, but we've still struggled to monetise their presence. 

A realistic aim should be to put on good looking TV events every weekend - at the moment we have too many events that look uninteresting. 

You've got a job in the day time? I thought you were a man of leisure?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Internationals - absolutely agree, but tbh I think IMG will focus on the Southern Hemisphere teams here, although I do think France will remain a project here. 

Not sure. I imagine IMG will be thinking about how to capitalise on relatively strong Irish and French teams, with perhaps Scotland and Wales forming a five nation comp with England, and/or perhaps a wider European comp with emerging nations.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Not sure. I imagine IMG will be thinking about how to capitalise on relatively strong Irish and French teams, with perhaps Scotland and Wales forming a five nation comp with England, and/or perhaps a wider European comp with emerging nations.   

With the greatest respect I doubt IMG is considering that at all. It would take way longer than 12 years and tens of millions of pounds to attempt, with no obvious gap in the market for it. IMG would know this as well as anyone.

We'd all love Northern Hemisphere rugby league to be on the verge of that, but it's so far from where we're at it's not a useful starting point.

We need to strengthen the standards, revenues and presentation of our existing flagship competition and hopefully generate increased revenues to improve all part of the game. And there are untapped revenues much closer to home that we should be focussing on before we start attempting international flights of fancy. 

Long term - very long term - we'd love to see a more international profile in the NH - but it's not something we can just wish, or remotely spend, into existence. I'm starting to feel that we start bandying these locations around because we've just given up trying to promote rugby league at home 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

With the greatest respect I doubt IMG is considering that at all. It would take way longer than 12 years and tens of millions of pounds to attempt, with no obvious gap in the market for it. IMG would know this as well as anyone.

We'd all love Northern Hemisphere rugby league to be on the verge of that, but it's so far from where we're at it's not a useful starting point.

We need to strengthen the standards, revenues and presentation of our existing flagship competition and hopefully generate increased revenues to improve all part of the game. And there are untapped revenues much closer to home that we should be focussing on before we start attempting international flights of fancy. 

Long term - very long term - we'd love to see a more international profile in the NH - but it's not something we can just wish, or remotely spend, into existence. I'm starting to feel that we start bandying these locations around because we've just given up trying to promote rugby league at home 

Sometimes we don’t see the wood for the trees. There’s a World Cup this autumn that will be huge for British RL across the three comps. Then there’s a World Cup in 2025 in France.

But, from what I can find, there is literally nothing in the European international calendar in between World Cups. Not men’s, nor women’s, nor wheelchair RL. This is the lowest hanging fruit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was living in France my neighbour/friend and I went to see Carcassonne. He was an arrmchair K&C man. His attitudes had been shaped by one being in the limelight and the other being at best swept under the carpet for the whole of his life. He started telling me why he preferred yoonion during the match and it was all about how they play the same teams over and over again.  There were other factors but they had much the same origin and basis. I still use him as the barometer of the market. This was especially because he lived in an essentially treiziste area, he'd played it when young and many of his potes were dyed in the wool Treizistes.

How would we sell whatever product we have to someone who could drive down the road to see a match but had preconcieved ideas about how they saw the game?

My brother is another example League at school, yoonion after that, turns up at Old Trafford for the GF more or less every year but never tires of telling me how much better Vichy is, and would never go down the street for an SL match.

Where is the marketing inroad there?

I use these two examples because they share closeness to the heartland and yet it might as well be light years for all negativity and dismissiveness that made them so alike.

I tend to use them as models for where RL finds itself and the lengths needed to attract mindsets like theirs. And how many people are there rich enough to buy into SL clubs, who see the point, who are motivated to do so and whose attitudes are not already shaped in one direction?

 

 

 

Edited by Oxford

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Sometimes we don’t see the wood for the trees. There’s a World Cup this autumn that will be huge for British RL across the three comps. Then there’s a World Cup in 2025 in France.

But, from what I can find, there is literally nothing in the European international calendar in between World Cups. Not men’s, nor women’s, nor wheelchair RL. This is the lowest hanging fruit.

I'm on board with that, and maybe IMG would be too. But those things are very different to setting up Superleague sides in Dublin and Glasgow.  Sometimes I think it gets conflated 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...