RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Archie Gordon]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think we have to assume that there has to be an element of sponsors, partners and maybe freebies that are not always taken up. 

...

Certainly. And I was prepared to go along with that until I experienced Doncaster. Sold a ticket for a section that was shut, I ended up sitting in the section I actually wanted but which was 'sold out'. Now, the missing folk weren't no shows, the seats just hadn't been allocated to anyone. Indeed, the steward told me to sit anywhere in the East Stand because only half the seats were taken.

[MattSantos]

25 quid for tonight isn't too bad.

However, i'm flummoxed by the below. Is this language new?

"The venue maps are indicative only, the maps and category areas are subject to change. The maps should only be used as a guide when choosing the ticket category you prefer."

 

[RL Tragic]

2 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Look, I’ve been critical of pricing strategy here and on twitter, and to be fair Mick Hogan has engaged and explained. Nothing’s perfect, but let’s all maybe keep some pespective and tone down the “incompetence” and “lies” vitriol? It ain’t that bad, and they’re doing a good job even if not perfect. There’s no conspiracies, or deliberate attempts to rip people off. 

We’re all on the same team here 

I agree we are on the same team , But we aren’t being paid to deliver an event . We should not be at a point a quarter of the way through a tournament or reviewing pricing and the entertainment offering , This kind of stuff is business lesson 101 . 

[Leyther_Matt]

3 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

25 quid for tonight isn't too bad.

There are £15 tickets available in every stand, too.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

 You can use words you see as appropriate, I'll use words I see appropriate. 

You are entitled to believe they are doing a good job on ticket sales. 

 

I don't particularly, but I don't think they're lying to us. That's infantile nonsense. Given a choice between the explanation for an event being either a c*ck up, or a conspiracy, it's the former 99 times out of 100. I reckon we should all take a nice, deep breath, and remember we're all on the same team with the same objective. 

[Ragingbull]

15 hours ago, The 4 of Us said:

My first live one tonight. The players and game as ever saved the day. 
 

The stadium could’ve should’ve been close to full. Didn’t feel like 10,500 there. Outside didn’t really feel like there was much going on, and East Stand there were no food/drink outlets even open, meaning you had to go under the seating areas.

£85,£60, £40 tickets are not going to fill anywhere on a Tuesday night. 
 

I tried to get one of the close to empty corner seats, but they were unavailable online. Instead it was same price to stand.

Can’t help feel that it’s an opportunity lost. Again. RL has been damned by the limitations of its administrators for 127 years. 
 

Thank goodness for its athletes. 

I don't disagree with what your saying about the expensive tickets but even the cheaper standing ones didn't get anywhere near selling out.  If the rest of the ground was a sell out then you can understand it was ticket prices that kept the crowd down but there were plenty of cheap tickets that also didn't sell 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

12 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

I agree we are on the same team , But we aren’t being paid to deliver an event . We should not be at a point a quarter of the way through a tournament or reviewing pricing and the entertainment offering , This kind of stuff is business lesson 101 . 

On pricing strategy, opinions are like @rs"holes, everyone's got one. I think they've got the pricing strategy wrong in parts, and Mick Hogan has pretty much admitted as much. But the strategy has been set and it is now too late to change it, without discounting - which would be an even bigger mistake. I'm cool with constructive criticism, I've been doing it both here and directly, but surely there's a line eh. 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I don't particularly, but I don't think they're lying to us. That's infantile nonsense. Given a choice between the explanation for an event being either a c*ck up, or a conspiracy, it's the former 99 times out of 100. I reckon we should all take a nice, deep breath, and remember we're all on the same team with the same objective. 

I don't think there is a conspiracy in the slightest. I think there is incompetence, and then BS to cover things up. And I've given an example of an untruth. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

On pricing strategy, opinions are like @rs"holes, everyone's got one. I think they've got the pricing strategy wrong in parts, and Mick Hogan has pretty much admitted as much. But the strategy has been set and it is now too late to change it, without discounting - which would be an even bigger mistake. I'm cool with constructive criticism, I've been doing it both here and directly, but surely there's a line eh. 

Based on the pricing - 10,400 last night would have still been a good revenue generator. Average price of say £30 - £35 compared to whatever the discounts were in 2013.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

I don't disagree with what your saying about the expensive tickets but even the cheaper standing ones didn't get anywhere near selling out.  If the rest of the ground was a sell out then you can understand it was ticket prices that kept the crowd down but there were plenty of cheap tickets that also didn't sell 

There is the cunulatice impact of higher prices though. Plenty of people have acknowledged that they are just attending far fewer games this time. 

And thats fine, but it means that those fans need to be replaced with new fans. 

And cheap is relative. £25 to stand at Saints ain't cheap. I think it's good value, but some people who paid that didn't even get an open kiosk in their stand. 

[crashmon]

I  was at Wales V Cook Islands in Neath. It was a dead rubber (as US had already qualifed by this point).Can  anybody remember the attendance, I seem to remember at least 5K there as it was pretty full

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Based on the pricing - 10,400 last night would have still been a good revenue generator. Average price of say £30 - £35 compared to whatever the discounts were in 2013.

I expect the ticket income was substantially higher, although a lot of people there still paid £15-25, many of the expensive seats just stayed empty. 

Probably the challenge on getting the balance right is still creating a good bustling event. It was just about that last night, but when I compare to 2013's games at the Halliwell Jones, the atmosphere, look and feel of the event was way down due to only being at around 55% capacity. 

Last night was very enjoyable, but didn't have the exciting vibrancy of a must-see event. 

Its probably the difference between staging 6 out of 10 events instead of 8's and 9's last time. But of course the financial are important here. 

[my missus]

on the subject of tickets I was lucky enough to win two in the national competition trouble is it has been impossible to download them. the email links from Christine Dodds just won't work, I have had seven different emails from her suggesting various ways to open them none work, she has given up on me now and says I should contact the ticketing agency which I will not do as it took me a week to get through to the ticketing site for Newcastle tickets.

 

[Sitona]

Problem is we want to fill every stadium and have all the matches live on free to air TV

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I'll happily call a liar out as a liar. 

One example is Jon Dutton telling us that they did not reduce prices for the St James opener. He called it a recategorisation. 

I almost bought a ticket at £70, the system crashed so I deferred. When I bought it a week later, I paid £30 for that same ticket. 

He publicly stated that there had been no price cut. That is gaslighting. 

I don't call anyone a liar lightly. 

Edit: I would add, I think they did the right thing. Reducing prices and not going through Groupon as we would in the past. But it was a pure discounting of tickets and weasel words to deny it. 

The distinction is important. Their core strategy is to not visibly discount, because that has killed rugby league's revenue generation and early-booking stats for over 15 years, since the previous commercial teams started doing so much ridiculous late discounting. 

Re-categorising areas based on experienced demand, whilst still ensuring that e.g. any advance purchases of 'tier A' tickets are in better viewing positions than those with 'tier B' tickets, is an intelligent way of doing this. 

What you describe as gaslighting - an incredibly loaded term - is actually intelligent dynamic pricing, a strategy pursued in the sport's interest. 

 

 

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The distinction is important. Their core strategy is to not visibly discount, because that has killed rugby league's revenue generation and early-booking stats for over 15 years, since the previous commercial teams started doing so much ridiculous late discounting. 

Re-categorising areas based on experienced demand, whilst still ensuring that e.g. any advance purchases of 'tier A' tickets are in better viewing positions than those with 'tier B' tickets, is an intelligent way of doing this. 

What you describe as gaslighting - an incredibly loaded term - is actually intelligent dynamic pricing, a strategy pursued in the sport's interest. 

 

 

They reduced £70 tickets to £30. I think it was the right thing to do. Don't tell people you haven't done it though. I think there was a PR win there in terms of cost of living, but denying that you have reduced price of tickets is literally lying. 

You can polish it whatever business and marketing terms you like - they cut the price because sales were low. 

They have gone too literal with the no discount point, the main issue has been around late flash sales when people have paid full price. 

Gaslighting isn't loaded, it's calling it out for what it is. I saw the price go from £70 to £30 in front of my eyes, and Dutton told me they hadn't reduced prices. There is no better word. This is actually the reason I am angry. I'm relatively forgiving of getting things wrong, I often defend the RFL around some of their challenges. 

I understand the pricing strategy - I think they have gone too far (it's a double whammy of price increases and no discounts), but that's their prerogative and they'll live or die based on the results. You'll note I have no issues with Mick Hogan's approach who has been pretty honest in recent days. 

And my final point on this ramble  is that I'm actually not negative about the RLWC, I think there is some unbelievable work going on, and a hell of a lot to be proud of, and I am containing my negativity to this thread, because it is the attendances thread, and that is the area that is under performing. 

[Mattrhino]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

On pricing strategy, opinions are like @rs"holes, everyone's got one. I think they've got the pricing strategy wrong in parts, and Mick Hogan has pretty much admitted as much. But the strategy has been set and it is now too late to change it, without discounting - which would be an even bigger mistake. I'm cool with constructive criticism, I've been doing it both here and directly, but surely there's a line eh. 

I don't thing discounting would be a mistake, I think its probably the cpr that we need at least for the knockout stages. We haven't seen the games that are costing £110, £85 and £70 yet

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

I don't thing discounting would be a mistake, I think its probably the cpr that we need at least for the knockout stages. We haven't seen the games that are costing £110, £85 and £70 yet

The Arsenal game will be really interesting. 

If England make the semis, we will see whether there is appetite for fans to pay high amounts for England games in London. 

It's a bold test, but we'll get some immediate results. 

We've seen that fans won't pay £70 for seats at St Helens for Tonga v PNG, but England in a World Cup Semi at the Emirates is different. We've already seen that fasn are paying more for the game at Bolton than they often would for an Ashes game for example. 

It's clear we have been underselling England games for a long time, whether that £110 price is quite right, we'll see. 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The Arsenal game will be really interesting. 

If England make the semis, we will see whether there is appetite for fans to pay high amounts for England games in London. 

It's a bold test, but we'll get some immediate results. 

We've seen that fans won't pay £70 for seats at St Helens for Tonga v PNG, but England in a World Cup Semi at the Emirates is different. We've already seen that fasn are paying more for the game at Bolton than they often would for an Ashes game for example. 

It's clear we have been underselling England games for a long time, whether that £110 price is quite right, we'll see. 

To be fair - those seats sold at SJP. I had early bird £85 seats and when I got another a few months later it was £110.

So if there is an issue in London - it might not be price related.

Although I accept that casual fans might be more price conscious at those levels.

[OriginalMrC]

One thing that's come out of this thread and on socials is that a lot of people left buying tickets very late and in some cases missed out on the cheaper tickets. They've been on sale for 2 years! 

[Mattrhino]

36 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The Arsenal game will be really interesting. 

If England make the semis, we will see whether there is appetite for fans to pay high amounts for England games in London. 

It's a bold test, but we'll get some immediate results. 

We've seen that fans won't pay £70 for seats at St Helens for Tonga v PNG, but England in a World Cup Semi at the Emirates is different. We've already seen that fasn are paying more for the game at Bolton than they often would for an Ashes game for example. 

It's clear we have been underselling England games for a long time, whether that £110 price is quite right, we'll see. 

I'm not that worried about the Emirates game, its a world class facility in a world renowned city. 

I am worried about £110 tickets at Elland Rd and £75 £55 for Hull, Huddersfield and DW 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, crashmon said:

I  was at Wales V Cook Islands in Neath. It was a dead rubber (as US had already qualifed by this point).Can  anybody remember the attendance, I seem to remember at least 5K there as it was pretty full

That crowd was 3,270, I just looked it up.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

They reduced £70 tickets to £30. I think it was the right thing to do. Don't tell people you haven't done it though. I think there was a PR win there in terms of cost of living, but denying that you have reduced price of tickets is literally lying. 

You can polish it whatever business and marketing terms you like - they cut the price because sales were low. 

They have gone too literal with the no discount point, the main issue has been around late flash sales when people have paid full price. 

Gaslighting isn't loaded, it's calling it out for what it is. I saw the price go from £70 to £30 in front of my eyes, and Dutton told me they hadn't reduced prices. There is no better word. This is actually the reason I am angry. I'm relatively forgiving of getting things wrong, I often defend the RFL around some of their challenges. 

I understand the pricing strategy - I think they have gone too far (it's a double whammy of price increases and no discounts), but that's their prerogative and they'll live or die based on the results. You'll note I have no issues with Mick Hogan's approach who has been pretty honest in recent days. 

And my final point on this ramble  is that I'm actually not negative about the RLWC, I think there is some unbelievable work going on, and a hell of a lot to be proud of, and I am containing my negativity to this thread, because it is the attendances thread, and that is the area that is under performing. 

I’m just going to have to agree to disagree, sorry. Your taking something very personally, when it’s actually a reassuring event that should give us some confidence that the team is focused on delivering for the sport in the long term. Rugby League has 2 strategic challenges at major events

1. Sales volume

2. Ability to successfully charge premium prices where people will pay them, ideally a reasonable time in advance 

For over 15 years we have tried to solve the 1st at the expense of the 2nd. This isn’t sustainable, and in fact has a negative feedback loop - reduced prices, and hence perceived value, can reduce demand eventually. Rugby League tickets are now much cheaper than comparable sports, having declined relatively over time. This tournament made some very firm promises at the outset around discounting, in order to address this problem. This was a promise to early buyers. They didn’t do that for fun, they did that to significantly move the dial on the 2nd strategic challenge.

Having done that, when faced with real sales data in the lead up to the tournament they could either 

1. Carry on regardless, and miss some sales they otherwise may get

2. Use the demand analytics (by price segment) to adjust the mix of seat pricing in a venue, to create more stock at a price point there’s a demonstrable market of immediate buyers for 

3. Go back on the promise, offer late discounts, and fatally undermine future early purchasing and willingness to pay premium prices 

They chose the 2nd path, because we now have the richness of data to do so, and the technological agility to be able to re-categorise sections. This is why up until close to the tournament they were selling tickets by price and general area, rather than by block, and are even now only selling by block rather than row/seat. They’ve planned for this scenario, for years. 

So yes, technically a seat you could have bought for £70 was later for sale for £30. But had you bought it at the first opportunity, your actual seat would have been in a better position - so you’d still get the premium over a £30 ticket you were previously happy to pay for. That’s not the same as discounting, where you pay £70 for a seat and then 2 weeks later somebody else can pay £30 for the seat next to you with an identical position.

If you want to focus on precise language, call that the same as simple “discounting”, and take the team’s strategy as some sort of personal affront, then I guess you can. But honestly it’s not about you. We have to up-shift the sport’s positioning, revenue yield and incentivise early purchase for better positioning. That’s all it is. 

[Mattrhino]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’m just going to have to agree to disagree, sorry. Your taking something very personally, when it’s actually a reassuring event that should give us some confidence that the team is focused on delivering for the sport in the long term. Rugby League has 2 strategic challenges at major events

1. Sales volume

2. Ability to successfully charge premium prices where people will pay them, ideally a reasonable time in advance 

For over 15 years we have tried to solve the 1st at the expense of the 2nd. This isn’t sustainable, and in fact has a negative feedback loop - reduced prices, and hence perceived value, can reduce demand eventually. Rugby League tickets are now much cheaper than comparable sports, having declined relatively over time. This tournament made some very firm promises at the outset around discounting, in order to address this problem. This was a promise to early buyers. They didn’t do that for fun, they did that to significantly move the dial on the 2nd strategic challenge.

Having done that, when faced with real sales data in the lead up to the tournament they could either 

1. Carry on regardless, and miss some sales they otherwise may get

2. Use the demand analytics (by price segment) to adjust the mix of seat pricing in a venue, to create more stock at a price point there’s a demonstrable market of immediate buyers for 

3. Go back on the promise, offer late discounts, and fatally undermine future early purchasing and willingness to pay premium prices 

They chose the 2nd path, because we now have the richness of data to do so, and the technological agility to be able to re-categorise sections. This is why up until close to the tournament they were selling tickets by price and general area, rather than by block, and are even now only selling by block rather than row/seat. They’ve planned for this scenario, for years. 

So yes, technically a seat you could have bought for £70 was later for sale for £30. But had you bought it at the first opportunity, your actual seat would have been in a better position - so you’d still get the premium over a £30 ticket you were previously happy to pay for. That’s not the same as discounting, where you pay £70 for a seat and then 2 weeks later somebody else can pay £30 for the seat next to you with an identical position.

If you want to focus on precise language, call that the same as simple “discounting”, and take the team’s strategy as some sort of personal affront, then I guess you can. But honestly it’s not about you. We have to up-shift the sport’s positioning, revenue yield and incentivise early purchase for better positioning. That’s all it is. 

I disagree, we are not cheaper than comparable sports.

The ticket they want me too pay £110 for at Elland Rd is circa £40 for the biggest soccer league (premier league)in the worlds most popular sport.

I can get a Champions League game at Man City for £22

Yes RU,Cricket and Wimbledon is expensive but the have 150 years of upper class establishment support that we do not. It is not comparable.

We have to exist in what market we exist in, we can not pretend we belong to another.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’m just going to have to agree to disagree, sorry. Your taking something very personally, when it’s actually a reassuring event that should give us some confidence that the team is focused on delivering for the sport in the long term. Rugby League has 2 strategic challenges at major events

1. Sales volume

2. Ability to successfully charge premium prices where people will pay them, ideally a reasonable time in advance 

For over 15 years we have tried to solve the 1st at the expense of the 2nd. This isn’t sustainable, and in fact has a negative feedback loop - reduced prices, and hence perceived value, can reduce demand eventually. Rugby League tickets are now much cheaper than comparable sports, having declined relatively over time. This tournament made some very firm promises at the outset around discounting, in order to address this problem. This was a promise to early buyers. They didn’t do that for fun, they did that to significantly move the dial on the 2nd strategic challenge.

Having done that, when faced with real sales data in the lead up to the tournament they could either 

1. Carry on regardless, and miss some sales they otherwise may get

2. Use the demand analytics (by price segment) to adjust the mix of seat pricing in a venue, to create more stock at a price point there’s a demonstrable market of immediate buyers for 

3. Go back on the promise, offer late discounts, and fatally undermine future early purchasing and willingness to pay premium prices 

They chose the 2nd path, because we now have the richness of data to do so, and the technological agility to be able to re-categorise sections. This is why up until close to the tournament they were selling tickets by price and general area, rather than by block, and are even now only selling by block rather than row/seat. They’ve planned for this scenario, for years. 

So yes, technically a seat you could have bought for £70 was later for sale for £30. But had you bought it at the first opportunity, your actual seat would have been in a better position - so you’d still get the premium over a £30 ticket you were previously happy to pay for. That’s not the same as discounting, where you pay £70 for a seat and then 2 weeks later somebody else can pay £30 for the seat next to you with an identical position.

If you want to focus on precise language, call that the same as simple “discounting”, and take the team’s strategy as some sort of personal affront, then I guess you can. But honestly it’s not about you. We have to up-shift the sport’s positioning, revenue yield and incentivise early purchase for better positioning. That’s all it is. 

Very happy to agree to disagree.