Australia's lost aura

[RippinandTearin]

1 hour ago, Iceberg Slim said:

Only one of those Anzac tests was played in NZ. I believe nz have played australia at home probably 3 times in the last 13-14 years. most games have been officiated by an Aussie ref. Yet despite they the kiwi have won 3 major tournaments and a few one offs. 
 

If the kiwis got an even playing field with an even half of their games at home not saying it would but possibly even up that number abit. 
 

we acknowledge the aussies are the best in the world but we ask for fairness when we do play. I know a lot of it fallls back on nzrl but you can’t play 20 Anzac tests in australia to 1 in nz or whatever it is 

to be fair, most of the kiwis live in Australia, some were even born here & there are always thousands there supporting them, there is no real home advantage

They're all well aware of how the NRL refs ref a game, it’d just confuse everyone & potentially ruin the spectacle to have a British or French referee  

[Tommygilf]

It is a shame that the 2020 Ashes series didn't go ahead, just so we could have had a yardstick to measure interest in playing the Aussies against.

I strongly suspect that the Kiwis 2015 tour (which followed the same planned North West, Yorkshire and London venue distribution) would have held up pretty strongly against it numbers wise. 

[DACS]

I genuinely think the biggest single issue is competitiveness.

Having said that, there's a strange Aussie reluctance to recognise close games or losses. Not long after the last WC final Gallen was going on about how Australia beat England in the final as usual, as though England hadn't given them a hell of a game. When NZ won the WC there was a similar reluctance to think of it as anything other than a blip.

The two issues are linked - Aussies just assume they'll win every game. They get a bit of a surprise when they don't but they've been dominant for so long that I think it would take a run of losses to NZ or England for the Aussie public to start taking it seriously. Only if that happens will you see Australia really take international RL seriously. I think even an England win this time would only make some people raise an eyebrow.

[The Rocket]

22 minutes ago, DACS said:

I genuinely think the biggest single issue is competitiveness.

Having said that, there's a strange Aussie reluctance to recognise close games or losses. Not long after the last WC final Gallen was going on about how Australia beat England in the final as usual, as though England hadn't given them a hell of a game. When NZ won the WC there was a similar reluctance to think of it as anything other than a blip.

The two issues are linked - Aussies just assume they'll win every game. They get a bit of a surprise when they don't but they've been dominant for so long that I think it would take a run of losses to NZ or England for the Aussie public to start taking it seriously. Only if that happens will you see Australia really take international RL seriously. I think even an England win this time would only make some people raise an eyebrow.

This. ^

Edited November 11, 2022 by The Rocket

[Iceberg Slim]

4 hours ago, RippinandTearin said:

to be fair, most of the kiwis live in Australia, some were even born here & there are always thousands there supporting them, there is no real home advantage

They're all well aware of how the NRL refs ref a game, it’d just confuse everyone & potentially ruin the spectacle to have a British or French referee  

It’s not the same as playing in NZ. Doesn’t matter if there’s a ton of kiwis there’s nothing like playing on home soil. A kiwi crowd when it gets going is like a pommy crowd it starts to pressure the opposition. I can assure some of those results would be different if they played at home just as much as they play away. 
 

I’ve got you on the refs situation. We need to develop more refs globally and in the nrl from nz especially and other nations

[The Rocket]

12 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The fact that a lot of the Australian posters on here want Emgland to win the World Cup for 'the good of the game' speaks absolute volumes.

I`ve been in the ` Aussies getting beat, for the good of the game ` camp for twenty, probably thirty years, but listening to the English commentary teams calling the English team`s games over the last couple of weeks, and the ridiculous hyperbole about how special they are I got to say that old " Geez I`d love the Aussies to give these blokes a hiding " feeling is coming back.

[RippinandTearin]

9 minutes ago, Iceberg Slim said:

It’s not the same as playing in NZ. Doesn’t matter if there’s a ton of kiwis there’s nothing like playing on home soil. A kiwi crowd when it gets going is like a pommy crowd it starts to pressure the opposition. I can assure some of those results would be different if they played at home just as much as they play away. 
 

I’ve got you on the refs situation. We need to develop more refs globally and in the nrl from nz especially and other nations

come on, there just as many if not more kiwis in the crowd anyway, they’re bloody everywhere, more scaffolders & bouncers than you can poke a stick at

Im guessing the NZRL are all for it for some reason, it’s not like they complain, the economics must add up, I’m sure Australia offer the arrangement 

[RippinandTearin]

4 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I`ve been in the ` Aussies getting beat, for the good of the game ` camp for twenty, probably thirty years, but listening to the English commentary teams calling the English team`s games over the last couple of weeks, and the ridiculous hyperbole about how special they are I got to say that old " Geez I`d love the Aussies to give these blokes a hiding " feeling is coming back.

There was nothing worse than Eddie & Stevo 

[RippinandTearin]

36 minutes ago, DACS said:

I genuinely think the biggest single issue is competitiveness.

Having said that, there's a strange Aussie reluctance to recognise close games or losses. Not long after the last WC final Gallen was going on about how Australia beat England in the final as usual, as though England hadn't given them a hell of a game. When NZ won the WC there was a similar reluctance to think of it as anything other than a blip.

The two issues are linked - Aussies just assume they'll win every game. They get a bit of a surprise when they don't but they've been dominant for so long that I think it would take a run of losses to NZ or England for the Aussie public to start taking it seriously. Only if that happens will you see Australia really take international RL seriously. I think even an England win this time would only make some people raise an eyebrow.

maybe if England produced a bit more arrogance masked as swagger over the years you’d also have that supreme confidence that nobody can beat you

It comes down to the set up, they all know how good each other are, play origin against & with each other, each year it produces incredible intensity, they just know that other teams can’t replicate it as often, the English NRL players are definitely having an effect on their “stay at home” brethren, it’s what will improve the standard 

 

I mean, bloody hell, Jackson Hastings & Brodie Croft winning man of steel? Jai Field not far behind? It may surprise you but they didn’t choose to go to super league because it was a step up, it was a last ditch effort to play & develop in a less intense environment 

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Iceberg Slim said:

It’s not the same as playing in NZ. Doesn’t matter if there’s a ton of kiwis there’s nothing like playing on home soil. A kiwi crowd when it gets going is like a pommy crowd it starts to pressure the opposition. I can assure some of those results would be different if they played at home just as much as they play away. 
 

I’ve got you on the refs situation. We need to develop more refs globally and in the nrl from nz especially and other nations

Or maybe develop a set of laws of the game that we all play to.

[Iceberg Slim]

1 hour ago, RippinandTearin said:

come on, there just as many if not more kiwis in the crowd anyway, they’re bloody everywhere, more scaffolders & bouncers than you can poke a stick at

Im guessing the NZRL are all for it for some reason, it’s not like they complain, the economics must add up, I’m sure Australia offer the arrangement 

Underneath the mask that is the kiwis the game is on a lifeline here. Participation numbers are declining and grassroots hasn’t seen much growth. 
 

they don’t have a problem with it because it’s the only way to make money is play aus in aus. It sucks as a kiwi fan because you never get to see the boys play at home against aus. 
 

if the nzrl weren’t so strapped for cash we wouldn’t have to play in aus as much. 
 

I suppose we’re the only ones to blame but it’s not helping the brand grow playing away year on year. I bet you next year they’ll play aus in aus 1 game and then they’ll go straight to England for test series. 
 

I suppose I’m just lamenting we have no money lol

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

I`ve been in the ` Aussies getting beat, for the good of the game ` camp for twenty, probably thirty years, but listening to the English commentary teams calling the English team`s games over the last couple of weeks, and the ridiculous hyperbole about how special they are I got to say that old " Geez I`d love the Aussies to give these blokes a hiding " feeling is coming back.

Good.  This is how it should be.

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, Niels said:

Whatever period he chose would have supported his point.

Australia won the 2 world cups prior to 1972 anyway. So he could have gone back 60 years and it would have been even worse.

I think it is too early to suggest Australia have even temporarily lost their aura. We will know more after the semi and final.

Let's look at the Ashes, we'd all agree that the Aussies have been dominant, yet over history it is 19 series wins each. By choosing (cherry picking) the last 50 years it would be 12 nil to the Aussies. 

But its a silly point, because the points being and periods chosen are entirely relevant. People are not choosing a random 17 year period to pretend there is competitiveness, there is a clear reason to choose that date - it's when the Aussies first lost a series in modern times. And since then they have lost more, including a World Cup Final, which didn't happen for decades. 17 years is a long time and nicely demonstrates the point that competitiveness may not be the big problem people make out. 

I made the point before the WC that it isn't always historic results that are a problem imo, it's hope that is needed. And when we now see an Aus v NZ game there is no longer that sense of a foregone conclusion. Sure, the Aussies will always be favourites, but as most of us have actually seen the Kiwis beat them in huge games like finals, that invincibility element has gone. 

We're still working on it with England, sadly. 

[Spidey]

6 hours ago, UTK said:

Depends what you consider competitive, the average scoreline across those 12 matches is 31-12.

 

IMO averaging a loss by over 3 converted tries is not competitive at all.

Not many RL games in general are competitive then

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Not many RL games in general are competitive then

Indeed. A final score won't always tell you the competitiveness of a game at all. 

[Martyn Sadler]

9 hours ago, headtackle said:

Tv coverage and the internet has killed the novelty of overseas players

i remember queuing for hours to watch the Aussies in 82 & 86.  Big names rarely seen

Now I can get my fill on YouTube and sky and get too much of a good thing

Same in all sports though.  Look at the World Cup.  No one tAlking about it and no novelty value as we have seen all the players so often 

Changing times

You could say the same about rugby union, but in their case the exposure of their leading players on TV seems to have the opposite effect.

They promote their games and their leading players and we, for the most part, don't.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

You could say the same about rugby union, but in their case the exposure of their leading players on TV seems to have the opposite effect.

They promote their games and their leading players and we, for the most part, don't.

This is right. For every excuse that we use for RL, there are very clear examples of other sports thriving under those conditions. 

[Anita Bath]

2 hours ago, DACS said:

I genuinely think the biggest single issue is competitiveness.

Having said that, there's a strange Aussie reluctance to recognise close games or losses. Not long after the last WC final Gallen was going on about how Australia beat England in the final as usual, as though England hadn't given them a hell of a game. When NZ won the WC there was a similar reluctance to think of it as anything other than a blip.

The two issues are linked - Aussies just assume they'll win every game. They get a bit of a surprise when they don't but they've been dominant for so long that I think it would take a run of losses to NZ or England for the Aussie public to start taking it seriously. Only if that happens will you see Australia really take international RL seriously. I think even an England win this time would only make some people raise an eyebrow.

Please mute Paul Gallen when he is on TV, some village around cronulla is missing its idiot….an embarrasment to the game in Australia….he only gets his TV gig because he says stupid things. 

We adore him in Queensland…..gets the maroons wound up for origin better than even wayne bennett managed.

[Tommygilf]

I don't think its as simple as "promoting their games". Do they even promote games at Twickenham for sale for example?

What RU has done is over a century build up a large community across the country who have had some involvement in the sport. The knock on effects of that are clear, with a generally friendly media, domination of the name "rugby", a generally wealthy middle class clientele (and a list of sponsors to go with that).

Add into that the international game, whose roots are based in and to a large extent maintained by those same circles (public school rugby tours for example), and you have a virtuous circle. Self selection is a big part of this. At Uni, without really trying I had friends who went to grammar or private schools and played RU. I didn't ever even play in the University union team or have anything to do with it, but because of my course, a tendency to enjoy sport (and the pub) and a comfortability mixing with a range of people, I still found a RU connection with a lot of friends. 

I would add, creating the above is far from an easy job and relies on a hell of a lot of hours put in by people across the country.

You can only "promote your players/games" if you have the medium for people to buy into it. This world cup must show that international RL (tournaments) are certainly our best was of doing that in the modern world. The club game is fine, but we have to be honest that it will have limited reach if there is no hook for people's interest.

[RippinandTearin]

1 hour ago, Iceberg Slim said:

Underneath the mask that is the kiwis the game is on a lifeline here. Participation numbers are declining and grassroots hasn’t seen much growth. 
 

they don’t have a problem with it because it’s the only way to make money is play aus in aus. It sucks as a kiwi fan because you never get to see the boys play at home against aus. 
 

if the nzrl weren’t so strapped for cash we wouldn’t have to play in aus as much. 
 

I suppose we’re the only ones to blame but it’s not helping the brand grow playing away year on year. I bet you next year they’ll play aus in aus 1 game and then they’ll go straight to England for test series. 
 

I suppose I’m just lamenting we have no money lol

I really doubt it’s the ARL or NRL holding the kiwis over a barrel, I’m sure they’d all be more than happy to skip across the Tasman for a test, I’m unsure if the numbers quoted are in fact correct & if they are, I have no idea what the logistics or reasons were to play in Australia, like I said, the kiwis usually don’t get disadvantaged by travel or crowd enthusiasm so I’m sure there were adequate reasons & it wouldn’t surprise me if more games were scheduled there soon, obviously Covid has knocked out the last few years

I understand the tigers are the first team to schedule a home game in NZ & I can only imagine there is more things happening to promote the game in NZ, I think the AllStar game is being played in Rotorua 

[Martyn Sadler]

55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think its as simple as "promoting their games". Do they even promote games at Twickenham for sale for example?

What RU has done is over a century build up a large community across the country who have had some involvement in the sport. The knock on effects of that are clear, with a generally friendly media, domination of the name "rugby", a generally wealthy middle class clientele (and a list of sponsors to go with that).

Add into that the international game, whose roots are based in and to a large extent maintained by those same circles (public school rugby tours for example), and you have a virtuous circle. Self selection is a big part of this. At Uni, without really trying I had friends who went to grammar or private schools and played RU. I didn't ever even play in the University union team or have anything to do with it, but because of my course, a tendency to enjoy sport (and the pub) and a comfortability mixing with a range of people, I still found a RU connection with a lot of friends. 

I would add, creating the above is far from an easy job and relies on a hell of a lot of hours put in by people across the country.

You can only "promote your players/games" if you have the medium for people to buy into it. This world cup must show that international RL (tournaments) are certainly our best was of doing that in the modern world. The club game is fine, but we have to be honest that it will have limited reach if there is no hook for people's interest.

I don't disagree with what you write here, but you are referring to long term trends that rugby union has pursued and which their governing bodies are able to draw on for international matches to their benefit.

But on a more short term basis, for example, we have had the Samoan coach Matt Parish banning his players this week from speaking to the media in the run-up to the most important game Samoa have ever played.

Can you imagine a rugby union international coach doing that, or even being allowed to do that by a national RU body in the week leading up to a big game.

Some people say that marketing is a state of mind that characterises successful organisations. If it is, in Rugby League we generally lack it.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

listening to the English commentary teams calling the English team`s games over the last couple of weeks, and the ridiculous hyperbole about how special they are I got to say that old " Geez I`d love the Aussies to give these blokes a hiding " feeling is coming back.

Swap England for Australia and welcome to our world for the last 40 years!!

[Jughead]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

It is a shame that the 2020 Ashes series didn't go ahead, just so we could have had a yardstick to measure interest in playing the Aussies against.

I strongly suspect that the Kiwis 2015 tour (which followed the same planned North West, Yorkshire and London venue distribution) would have held up pretty strongly against it numbers wise. 

I think we’d have done well attendance wise. One game was due to be at Tottenham and I think the curiosity and appeal of a new ground would have meant we’d have done well there. I can’t remember the other two venues but I’m sure we’d have got very good crowds. 

[Iceberg Slim]

47 minutes ago, RippinandTearin said:

I really doubt it’s the ARL or NRL holding the kiwis over a barrel, I’m sure they’d all be more than happy to skip across the Tasman for a test, I’m unsure if the numbers quoted are in fact correct & if they are, I have no idea what the logistics or reasons were to play in Australia, like I said, the kiwis usually don’t get disadvantaged by travel or crowd enthusiasm so I’m sure there were adequate reasons & it wouldn’t surprise me if more games were scheduled there soon, obviously Covid has knocked out the last few years

I understand the tigers are the first team to schedule a home game in NZ & I can only imagine there is more things happening to promote the game in NZ, I think the AllStar game is being played in Rotorua 

It’s definitely money based. I mean the arlc aren’t strapped for cash whereas the nzrl is. 
 

the reason we need to play in nz is to convince the New Zealand public that the game can win a portion of the nz sporting market that is saturated with rugby. The warriors isn’t the answer as the club is about 10 years away from making another playoff berth. 
 

we’re not trying to convince kiwis in aussie who are already either converted to league or follow the nrl it’s trying to get league in schools here. Out of 110 schools in Auckland only 10 play league of some form. Imagine if a successful kiwis team could get that number up to 30 schools. Sorry I’m getting off topic here but if we could bring it back to aussie if in someway they could play a test in nz every year similar to how they use to go to png but say all the proceeds go to the kiwis that would do a lot of good for the international game but I believe rebuild the kangaroo brand 

[Gomersall]

4 minutes ago, Iceberg Slim said:

It’s definitely money based. I mean the arlc aren’t strapped for cash whereas the nzrl is. 
 

the reason we need to play in nz is to convince the New Zealand public that the game can win a portion of the nz sporting market that is saturated with rugby. The warriors isn’t the answer as the club is about 10 years away from making another playoff berth. 
 

we’re not trying to convince kiwis in aussie who are already either converted to league or follow the nrl it’s trying to get league in schools here. Out of 110 schools in Auckland only 10 play league of some form. Imagine if a successful kiwis team could get that number up to 30 schools. Sorry I’m getting off topic here but if we could bring it back to aussie if in someway they could play a test in nz every year similar to how they use to go to png but say all the proceeds go to the kiwis that would do a lot of good for the international game but I believe rebuild the kangaroo brand 

I’d be amazed if Australia gave their closest rivals, not just geographically but on the pitch too, a helping hand like free money.