European Championships 2023 - Confirmed by ERL

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Really needs sorting out.

Things were going so well

[The Masked Poster]

England Knights in a European competition, is still preferable to it not happening. 

But England definitely need games

[JM2010]

I don't think England Knights should be in this. It should be either England proper or not at all if they're playing in a test series.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I don't think England Knights should be in this. It should be either England proper or not at all if they're playing in a test series.

 

I'm not overly fussed - regular competition of the other nations is the most important thing for now.

[MatthewWoody]

8 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I don't think England Knights should be in this. It should be either England proper or not at all if they're playing in a test series.

 

England should be in it. Otherwise, the winners couldn't call themselves European Champions.

[MatthewWoody]

Just now, Leonard said:

I'm not overly fussed - regular competition of the other nations is the most important thing for now.

More than England playing vs top sides?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

More than England playing vs top sides?

If England have the choice of NZ, which was the reason suggested, then they should play that. In which case Knights is fine for the European tournament, where a number of side are weak as well.

It seems like everyone wins on some level for that. I wouldn't sack off NZ just to play a full strength side vs Spain.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Leonard

[RP London]

23 hours ago, Jughead said:

The legitimacy of the competition is harmed by having two sides, one a B team, involved when it directly affects World Cup qualification, and two participants aren’t competing for qualification. Obviously, there’s a way to differentiate between the two but I don’t hold out much hope of seeing common sense applied. 

No it isnt.. 

Its a European Championship that has World Cup Qualification involved. Where you end up in the European Championship helps you qualify for the World Cup but first and foremost it is a European Championship. 

I dont necessarily disagree with it being degraded by having England B involved but that is still to be seen and will depend on what else is going on. Either way it is better to have it than to not and there is a lot worse that could happen. But the key is to see that it is a European Championship first with world cup qualification as second (with other ways to qualify at other times).. other sports do this, I believe Olympic football qualification is based on some quite random things for both men and women for a start. 

[Jughead]

Just now, RP London said:

No it isnt.. 

Its a European Championship that has World Cup Qualification involved. Where you end up in the European Championship helps you qualify for the World Cup but first and foremost it is a European Championship. 

I dont necessarily disagree with it being degraded by having England B involved but that is still to be seen and will depend on what else is going on. Either way it is better to have it than to not and there is a lot worse that could happen. But the key is to see that it is a European Championship first with world cup qualification as second (with other ways to qualify at other times).. other sports do this, I believe Olympic football qualification is based on some quite random things for both men and women for a start. 

A competition that directly affects World Cup qualification with teams involved, one of which is a B team and another pre-qualified for the tournament, harms the legitimacy of the very tournament when competition rankings are to be affected by this. 

[Northern Eel]

From a selfish point of view, I want England to play the best teams. Only two weeks ago, we were almost unanimous that in order for us to compete at the highest level and actually win tournaments, we need to play the best teams as often as possible. If that translates into an autumn series against New Zealand, that would be great.

What we also know is that the other European teams need appropriate challenge in order to improve. We also have a situation where France very rarely win games as a national side. They will benefit from the closer competition with the Knights, whilst other teams will be more competitive over a number of games. 

It seems to me that this is a stone that kills two birds and we should be behind it. I understand the idea that the inclusion of a B team might be seen to devalue the competition, but the opposite mindset is that it actually increases the number of competitive matches for lower-level teams at a rate that will benefit them the most.

Who benefits if England say, 'we won't play the B team in this competition and we will just play NZ in 3 tests.'?

Edited November 23, 2022 by Northern Eel

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

A competition that directly affects World Cup qualification with teams involved, one of which is a B team and another pre-qualified for the tournament, harms the legitimacy of the very tournament when competition rankings are to be affected by this. 

nope.. again this isnt uncommon.. get away from the B team aspect for a moment as that is not confirmed, it still may be the full side (or as full as Wane wants to select).. 

This is the European Championships. Everyone should be involved..

It has been decided that some, not all but some, of the European places will be decided here.. for those that dont make it at this juncture there are more ways to qualify, this is just 1 way. 

But I cannot stress this enough, first and foremost this is the European Championships.

[MatthewWoody]

England sends an understrength team to the u19 Euros, without SL youngsters. 

I don't see any problem with the Knights. If we want to call them tests, play Nz as Gb and the Euros as England. 

I wouldn't renounce to a top team like Nz touring because of the Euros.

[Jughead]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

nope.. again this isnt uncommon.. get away from the B team aspect for a moment as that is not confirmed, it still may be the full side (or as full as Wane wants to select).. 

This is the European Championships. Everyone should be involved..

It has been decided that some, not all but some, of the European places will be decided here.. for those that dont make it at this juncture there are more ways to qualify, this is just 1 way. 

But I cannot stress this enough, first and foremost this is the European Championships.

It is uncommon. There’s a World Cup on now. B teams aren’t involved in the qualification process, nor should they be. 

The European Championship directly affects the World Cup Qualification. It’s a sham when one of the nations has qualified already and another has sent its B team to participate in it, are involved when this directly affects qualification.

There’s more sensible work arounds around it, though they don’t seem to have been considered and some teams final finishes are likely to be effected by being pumped by England’s B team and that’s not right or fair. 

[Northern Eel]

16 minutes ago, Jughead said:

It is uncommon. There’s a World Cup on now. B teams aren’t involved in the qualification process, nor should they be. 

The European Championship directly affects the World Cup Qualification. It’s a sham when one of the nations has qualified already and another has sent its B team to participate in it, are involved when this directly affects qualification.

There’s more sensible work arounds around it, though they don’t seem to have been considered and some teams final finishes are likely to be effected by being pumped by England’s B team and that’s not right or fair. 

If everyone plays the same teams, it is fair. If not, less so. 

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

It is uncommon. There’s a World Cup on now. B teams aren’t involved in the qualification process, nor should they be. 

The European Championship directly affects the World Cup Qualification. It’s a sham when one of the nations has qualified already and another has sent its B team to participate in it, are involved when this directly affects qualification.

There’s more sensible work arounds around it, though they don’t seem to have been considered and some teams final finishes are likely to be effected by being pumped by England’s B team and that’s not right or fair. 

Your jumping to conclusions for a start that it is definitely England B.. that is not yet confirmed. 

It is not uncommon for different tournaments to be used to get qualification for a world cup.. there are more ways to qualify than just through this tournament, and again, that isn't uncommon. 

You can qualify for the world cup and Euro champs in football by finishing top of your low league Nations League group.. that's one competition that directly affects another. 

In Handball (way more countries play it than RL) the Euro Championships act as qualifiers for the world champs (well, as with this some do, then others go on and qualify through other tournaments or qualification processes, just like is suggested here). 

There are loads more but I'm not going to get exact details now as i need to get home from work but it really isnt uncommon. 

When you have a limited ability to play international matches (which we clearly do) then sometimes things double up, other sports do it.. its the way of it. 

The rest is conclusions jumped to on the back of it being England "b" which it may be but it may not too.. but just being pumped here doesn't mean you wont qualify, there are other ways to qualify for the world cup than just this tournament. 

Having a proper European Champs is great news.. 

The fact it will act as a qualify for the world cup is an aside but I bet that most of these "smaller nations" that could be affected are happy that this is happening at all.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

Your jumping to conclusions for a start that it is definitely England B.. that is not yet confirmed. 

It is not uncommon for different tournaments to be used to get qualification for a world cup.. there are more ways to qualify than just through this tournament, and again, that isn't uncommon. 

You can qualify for the world cup and Euro champs in football by finishing top of your low league Nations League group.. that's one competition that directly affects another. 

In Handball (way more countries play it than RL) the Euro Championships act as qualifiers for the world champs (well, as with this some do, then others go on and qualify through other tournaments or qualification processes, just like is suggested here). 

There are loads more but I'm not going to get exact details now as i need to get home from work but it really isnt uncommon. 

When you have a limited ability to play international matches (which we clearly do) then sometimes things double up, other sports do it.. its the way of it. 

The rest is conclusions jumped to on the back of it being England "b" which it may be but it may not too.. but just being pumped here doesn't mean you wont qualify, there are other ways to qualify for the world cup than just this tournament. 

Having a proper European Champs is great news.. 

The fact it will act as a qualify for the world cup is an aside but I bet that most of these "smaller nations" that could be affected are happy that this is happening at all.

All you do is just take into account the games not involving England.

It's really not that difficult.

[Guest]

The only relevance England has is if there are injuries.

But not to play an already qualified team would be like saying England football team should never play a game that isn't a world or euro qualifier in case someone gets injured.

As it happens the other nations will effectively play a friendly in amongst qualifiers.

Nothing to see here - this is not the droid you are looking for.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Leonard

[Number 16]

Two points to make...

Strip out England and France and the other six nations can barely muster fifty grassroots clubs between them. They're all still in an elementary state of development (except, possibly, Wales). It's reasonable that England's approach to the competition is cut accordingly. So, notwithstanding the international 'purists' foot-stamping the Knights should represent England.

Regards WC qualification... England in one group and France the other. Three aspirants make up each of the groups. Issue two sets of tables for each group, one with all four for the participants for the Euros, and another for the WC but only including the games between the three sides. All pretty simple for anyone with a three figure IQ.

[Jughead]

32 minutes ago, RP London said:

Your jumping to conclusions for a start that it is definitely England B.. that is not yet confirmed. 

It is not uncommon for different tournaments to be used to get qualification for a world cup.. there are more ways to qualify than just through this tournament, and again, that isn't uncommon. 

You can qualify for the world cup and Euro champs in football by finishing top of your low league Nations League group.. that's one competition that directly affects another. 

In Handball (way more countries play it than RL) the Euro Championships act as qualifiers for the world champs (well, as with this some do, then others go on and qualify through other tournaments or qualification processes, just like is suggested here). 

There are loads more but I'm not going to get exact details now as i need to get home from work but it really isnt uncommon. 

When you have a limited ability to play international matches (which we clearly do) then sometimes things double up, other sports do it.. its the way of it. 

The rest is conclusions jumped to on the back of it being England "b" which it may be but it may not too.. but just being pumped here doesn't mean you wont qualify, there are other ways to qualify for the world cup than just this tournament. 

Having a proper European Champs is great news.. 

The fact it will act as a qualify for the world cup is an aside but I bet that most of these "smaller nations" that could be affected are happy that this is happening at all.

How many of these “common” events have B Teams participating in? There’s absolutely zero precedence for this. This place would be filled with expletives had the Australians chucked a B team into similar in the southern hemisphere and rightly so.

If the best we can do is “well, we don’t play enough games so we best be pleased we have some” then that’s wrong. It’s totally acceptable to think we don’t play enough games and think the inclusion of B teams in a competition that directly affects the World Cup qualification process is wrong. It’s not an either or thing. We can and should be able to call out things we think are wrong, much in the way Keighley went against the tide with the IMG proposal.

As an aside, I’m not even sure what the purpose of England Knights is but that’s another discussion for another time.

Let’s also not patronise smaller nations, either. They’d much rather be playing the real England side and I’m sure anyone affected by the outcome of dead rubber games against an England B team and a France side already qualified for the World Cup, won’t share the sentiment. The game is cash poor, let’s be honest. The governing bodies of nations are poorer. Getting pumped by an England B team and having the points conceded column obliterated and/or losing key players for actual, proper games isn’t going to go down well. 

[MatthewWoody]

They'd be happy to be dumped by England's test team? 

Should England renounce to playing NZ? 

Let's be concrete.

P.s.: Argentina and Uruguay XVs play in the South American ru championship, so they don't have to renounce playing top test teams.

Edited November 23, 2022 by MatthewWoody

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

I don't think England Knights should be in this. It should be either England proper or not at all if they're playing in a test series.

 

So how do the other nations measure their progress? 

[Number 16]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

As an aside, I’m not even sure what the purpose of England Knights is but that’s another discussion for another time.

One of the purposes is to represent England when it's not appropriate to field the full England team. Such as the Euros.

That you're not sure of the purpose is because your one-eye disagrees.

Simples 

 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

How many of these “common” events have B Teams participating in? There’s absolutely zero precedence for this. This place would be filled with expletives had the Australians chucked a B team into similar in the southern hemisphere and rightly so.

If the best we can do is “well, we don’t play enough games so we best be pleased we have some” then that’s wrong. It’s totally acceptable to think we don’t play enough games and think the inclusion of B teams in a competition that directly affects the World Cup qualification process is wrong. It’s not an either or thing. We can and should be able to call out things we think are wrong, much in the way Keighley went against the tide with the IMG proposal.

As an aside, I’m not even sure what the purpose of England Knights is but that’s another discussion for another time.

Let’s also not patronise smaller nations, either. They’d much rather be playing the real England side and I’m sure anyone affected by the outcome of dead rubber games against an England B team and a France side already qualified for the World Cup, won’t share the sentiment. The game is cash poor, let’s be honest. The governing bodies of nations are poorer. Getting pumped by an England B team and having the points conceded column obliterated and/or losing key players for actual, proper games isn’t going to go down well. 

IMHO thats just rubbish.

The problem is you cannot get beyond the "B" team something that hasn't even been announced yet, your just assuming.

People have already shown you how easily this can work but you are not prepared to read/listen..  

Its not patronising to say what has been said at all its realism. 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by RP London

[Tommygilf]

Some reports emerging that the RFL are hoping this is the Knights in the Euros, whilst Wane and the RFL hierarchy are wanting to "tempt the kiwis" over for a test series.

To me, if the Kiwis wanted a series (and presumably then 3 Northern Hemisphere tours in 4 years between 2022 and 2025, they would have sorted it whilst they were here during the World Cup. It feels like they are holding out for confirmation of the Oceania Cup for '23.

I've said originally on this thread I'm not bothered if the England team taking to the field in the Euros next year is effectively the Knights squad as the Full England team. We should take advantage of the opportunity we have to test some players (god knows the world cup showed several "leading lights" who are past it) whilst not having to haul various NRL based players over. So long as a team, called England, coached by the England coach and treated with the proper sincerity takes to the field in the Euros, that'll do for me. 

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Some reports emerging that the RFL are hoping this is the Knights in the Euros, whilst Wane and the RFL hierarchy are wanting to "tempt the kiwis" over for a test series.

To me, if the Kiwis wanted a series (and presumably then 3 Northern Hemisphere tours in 4 years between 2022 and 2025, they would have sorted it whilst they were here during the World Cup. It feels like they are holding out for confirmation of the Oceania Cup for '23.

I've said originally on this thread I'm not bothered if the England team taking to the field in the Euros next year is effectively the Knights squad as the Full England team. We should take advantage of the opportunity we have to test some players (god knows the world cup showed several "leading lights" who are past it) whilst not having to haul various NRL based players over. So long as a team, called England, coached by the England coach and treated with the proper sincerity takes to the field in the Euros, that'll do for me. 

totally agree.