The History Thread

[The Hallucinating Goose]

A place for the history enthusiasts on the forum to discuss the past. Post anything at all about your favourite historical topics that you think others might find interesting!

Edited December 21, 2022 by The Hallucinating Goose

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I'll start us off with a fact I found out a couple of days ago. 

During the Vietnam War, the US dropped more bombs than every combatant combined during the Second World War. 

Incredible. 

[Exiled Townie]

A little know fact that is glossed over in the majority of history books I read about the battle of Agincourt.

From Juliet Barker's book 'Agincourt: The King, the Campaign, the Battle' :-  Many of the English and Welsh archers were suffering from dysentry, and were reduced to removing their soiled breeches and undergarments in an attempt to allow nature to take its course more easily ie not wearing anything from the waist down — an option not available to the men-at-arms, encased in their padded steel plate suits, they just had to 'go' in their armour. Grim though the sight of them must have been, the smell was probably worse.

Imagine being a French knight,being attacked by naked from the waist down archers, followed by men at arms with poo squelching out of their armour - they don't teach that in history class.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

5 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I'll start us off with a fact I found out a couple of days ago. 

During the Vietnam War, the US dropped more bombs than every combatant combined during the Second World War. 

Incredible. 

Where did you hear that? 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

5 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

A place for the history enthusiasts on the forum to discuss the past. Post anything at all about your favourite historical topics that you think others might find interesting!

Watching Wolf Hall .....obviously later than most people 

Enjoying it and made us realise how much we love visiting National Trust and English Heritage old historic places 

Hampton court is on our Xmas outing list as a been a few time before but can't beat bring in the actual rooms that historic happened 

The most I've ever felt that was the great hall at Westminster.....extraordinary historic place and you can visit for free by contacting your mp !

 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

14 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Where did you hear that? 

I was watching a YouTube video of different historical maps and one was a map of South East Asia with every bomb dropped by the US plotted on it and the accompanying facts supplied. 

A quick Internet search reveals that between 1962 and 1973, the US dropped 8 million tons of bombs in Indochina compared with a total of approximately 4 million dropped by all warring nations during the Second World War. Truly shocking statistics. 

[Tight Maggot]

Does this figure include the 2.7 million tons of bombs dropped on Cambodia ? The USA did not declare war on either country or vice versa so technically the Vietnam War was never a war.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

6 hours ago, Tight Maggot said:

Does this figure include the 2.7 million tons of bombs dropped on Cambodia ? The USA did not declare war on either country or vice versa so technically the Vietnam War was never a war.

I imagine it probably does. I remember when looking at the map, there was quite a bit of ordinance dropped on Laos as well and even some that seemed to stray into China and Thailand. I don't think the US were the best aimers! I don't think it matters whether there was a declaration or not, for twice as much ordinance to be dropped in so small an area as that dropped worldwide in another war is soul destroying. 

[Exiled Townie]

Been reading about John Nicholson, a legendary Anglo/Irish British army officer during the Indian Rebellion of 1857. Described by some as the man who saved British India and by others as an imperial psychopath, some of the tales are astounding - One famous story recounted in Soldier Sahibs is of a night during the Rebellion when Nicholson strode into the British mess tent at Jullundar, coughed to attract the attention of the officers, then said, "I am sorry, gentlemen, to have kept you waiting for your dinner, it will be a little late as I have just been hanging your cooks." (He had been told that the regimental chefs had poisoned the soup. When they refused to taste it for him, he fed it to a monkey – and when it expired on the spot, he proceeded to hang the cooks from a nearby tree without a trial.)

When appointed a district commissioner, Nicholson was ruthless in bringing peace and order to the region with a zero tolerance attitude on crime or any perceived disrespect shown towards the colonial government, often using flogging  to both punish and humiliate any who dared infringe the law.  He often dispensed justice with the head of an infamous outlaw pickled in a jar on his desk beside him.

At first he was feared, but Nicholson soon gained the respect of the Afghan and North Punjabi tribes in the area for his fair treatment to all, as well as the almost complete elimination of crime. The respect that Nicholson gained from the Sikh people and then the Punjabi tribes turned into an almost religious worship as the "Nikal Seyn" cult developed, which worshiped Nicholson as a saint who brought justice to the oppressed by punishing the strong.  Amazingly, this cult survived  into the 20th century. Rather than be flattered by this religious devotion, Nicholson found his Christian beliefs offended by the worship of himself, and would promptly whip any of the devotees who publicly practiced this cult in his presence. Unfortunately this only expanded the cult. Reading about it, I couldn't help but think it led to scenes like in the 'Life of Brian',   

I'm not the Messiah Will you please listen, I am not the Messiah, do you understand? 
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.

[Tight Maggot]

 

7 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I imagine it probably does. I remember when looking at the map, there was quite a bit of ordinance dropped on Laos as well and even some that seemed to stray into China and Thailand. I don't think the US were the best aimers! I don't think it matters whether there was a declaration or not, for twice as much ordinance to be dropped in so small an area as that dropped worldwide in another war is soul destroying. 

I often wonder if any form of compensation was paid to either Cambodia or Laos (who also had about 2 million tons dropped on them), I understand the American Generals reasoning behind the bombing but how do you do that to a country and have no accountability is a very sad reflection on how this world operates.

The more you look into the history of the "Vietnam War" the more you realise what a load of bull...t we are fed about us (the West) being the good guys and everybody else being Commies, Religous nuts etc. What with the truth eventually coming out about the weapons of mass destruction never existing in Iraq it makes you wonder what has really gone on behind the scenes in Ukraine. I guess we will find out how we got to this situation in X amount of years time.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

29 minutes ago, Tight Maggot said:

 

I often wonder if any form of compensation was paid to either Cambodia or Laos (who also had about 2 million tons dropped on them), I understand the American Generals reasoning behind the bombing but how do you do that to a country and have no accountability is a very sad reflection on how this world operates.

I don't really know about the arguments put forward in this case but I do know both sides of the debate when it came to dropping the atomic bombs on Japan and I wonder if its similar. 

Essentially what was argued about Japan was that despite the number of people the atomic bombs killed, dropping them ended the war a lot quicker than it would have ended otherwise and that as a result the number of people killed is predicted to be less than had the war carried on and the US eventually invaded Japan, something that was being seriously considered at the time. 

[Tight Maggot]

I agree with what you are saying regarding the atomic bombs, after some of the battles the US had on the Pacific Islands and seeing how fanatical the Japanese could be there is a very cold case to argue that dropping the bombs on civilian population centres proved not only to the Japanese but also the rest of the world that they had these weapons and would use them if they felt it prudent to do so. I do believe that as much as they wanted to end the war quickly they just as much wanted to send a clear message to Stalin not to get too ambitious in Europe at the wars conclusion.

[Tight Maggot]

Bye the way Exiled Townie, very interesting little story, never heard of that chap before.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

18 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Watching Wolf Hall .....obviously later than most people 

Enjoying it and made us realise how much we love visiting National Trust and English Heritage old historic places 

Hampton court is on our Xmas outing list as a been a few time before but can't beat bring in the actual rooms that historic happened 

The most I've ever felt that was the great hall at Westminster.....extraordinary historic place and you can visit for free by contacting your mp !

 

A few years ago, when my salaried working life was gently winding down, I worked three days a week for the Bath & Wells Diocesan Board of Finance - typically two at home and one in the office, all subject to finding time to visit individual parishes.  Their offices were the Old Deanery, a fine old building opposite Wells Cathedral in the cathedral close.  The bit of road outside our office forecourt and the forecourt itself were used in filming Wolf Hall, doubling up, I think I was told, as part of Whitehall.

One day, as I left the office, I realised I had walked straight into the middle of a scene, involving a cart pulled by peasants and other things.  Luckily, they weren't filming at that very moment, or I would have heard an ominous, "Cut!"

[Bostik Bailey]

The Norman conquest was actually a (very distant) relative of the king (Edward the confessor) claiming the crown from a usurper Harold Godwineson, who had no hereditary claim the the throne whatsoever. In the years leading up to Edwards death Harold put all his cronies into all the major earldoms etc. so in reality the Norman conquest was just restoring the ‘rightful’ hereditary line to the throne.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

A few years ago, when my salaried working life was gently winding down, I worked three days a week for the Bath & Wells Diocesan Board of Finance - typically two at home and one in the office, all subject to finding time to visit individual parishes.  Their offices were the Old Deanery, a fine old building opposite Wells Cathedral in the cathedral close.  The bit of road outside our office forecourt and the forecourt itself were used in filming Wolf Hall, doubling up, I think I was told, as part of Whitehall.

One day, as I left the office, I realised I had walked straight into the middle of a scene, involving a cart pulled by peasants and other things.  Luckily, they weren't filming at that very moment, or I would have heard an ominous, "Cut!"

Ha!!!.....would have been good to have seen you in shot!

We love Wiltshire....in fact my eldest was conceived there! ...stayed in a b and be near the Avebury stones.....marvellous and special part of that country and indeed world 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Ha!!!.....would have been good to have seen you in shot!

We love Wiltshire....in fact my eldest was conceived there! ...stayed in a b and be near the Avebury stones.....marvellous and special part of that country and indeed world 

I whisper this softly, being at the Stonehenge end of the county.  Stonehenge is very fine, but, visually, Avebury is far more spectacular!

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Bostik Bailey said:

The Norman conquest was actually a (very distant) relative of the king (Edward the confessor) claiming the crown from a usurper Harold Godwineson, who had no hereditary claim the the throne whatsoever. In the years leading up to Edwards death Harold put all his cronies into all the major earldoms etc. so in reality the Norman conquest was just restoring the ‘rightful’ hereditary line to the throne.

My historical “speciality” is what used to be known as the dark ages but is now known as the early medieval period from the “Adventus Saxonum” up until the end of the 11th century.

I used to be a member of the re-enactment group Regia Anglorum which concentrates on the Viking/Norman era, I’ve even been an extra in a couple of tv productions and low budget films!

I worked on the Coppergate excavations in York which was the best time of my life 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I whisper this softly, being at the Stonehenge end of the county.  Stonehenge is very fine, but, visually, Avebury is far more spectacular!

Yeah...a local lass I once knew used to say Avebury was the better attraction ....think she was right 

You can touch and move amongst the Avebury stones etc..

As it used to be at stone henge....I've got a picture of me climbing on the stones as a kid in the 1970s.....the good old days when historic monuments were there to be used and destroyed at will

My dad claims that they used to sell little.hammer and chisel sets in the local town so people could chip a bit off the stones as a souvenir 

[Exiled Townie]

4 hours ago, Tight Maggot said:

Bye the way Exiled Townie, very interesting little story, never heard of that chap before.

He was a great hero in Victorian times, but as time passed and attitudes changed, he has been largely forgotten.  I think I read that he has three statues in Northern Ireland, an obelisk to his memory in Pakistan and his grave in Delhi is classed as a protected monument by the Indian government.

[Maximus Decimus]

7 hours ago, Tight Maggot said:

 

I often wonder if any form of compensation was paid to either Cambodia or Laos (who also had about 2 million tons dropped on them), I understand the American Generals reasoning behind the bombing but how do you do that to a country and have no accountability is a very sad reflection on how this world operates.

The more you look into the history of the "Vietnam War" the more you realise what a load of bull...t we are fed about us (the West) being the good guys and everybody else being Commies, Religous nuts etc. What with the truth eventually coming out about the weapons of mass destruction never existing in Iraq it makes you wonder what has really gone on behind the scenes in Ukraine. I guess we will find out how we got to this situation in X amount of years time.

Extraordinary evil can be done for the right cause. The desire to prevent nations (and by consequence tipping the world balance) from falling into communist hands was a noble one, however at that time it was handled terribly and with little thought for the nations caught in the crossfire. 

However, there is simply no comparison between 'the West' (which isn't a synonym for the USA btw) and the Communist nations at that time. As a society, we have completely lost sight of the extraordinary freedoms which we enjoy and especially how easily they can be lost. Public opinion within those countries was one of the main reasons why the US and the UK had to change course, and anybody involved is now a pariah - it almost single-handedly destroyed the reputation of Blair. They now serve as a severe warning to any leaders thinking of doing the same. Autocratic regimes (like we see in Russia today) have no such worries.

The Soviet Union, and especially Communist China at that time were extraordinarily evil regimes. Maybe their foreign policy doesn't seem much worse, but domestically they were repressive and cruel much akin to what we see in North Korea today. 

Nobody said the West is perfect, but it represents the regions of the world where change can happen, and the story of the 20th and 21st centuries is one of slow but definite progress. This isn't inevitable, and as we see in Russia today it can easily be reversed. 

 

 

[Maximus Decimus]

I was actually going to start a thread about your favourite historical artefacts but it may as well go here. Mine might at first seem unusual, but I will explain! As an ancient history graduate, I have long studied famous people and events from long in the past. Great statues, buildings and valuable artefacts are great and it is nice to think that they were once inhabited by those people but for me nothing beats the feeling I get when I look at these ostraka from Athens.

Ancient Athens had a policy whereby anybody who was deemed to be getting too powerful could be ostracised for 10 years. They would vote on broken pieces of pottery (ostraka) and then whoever got the most would be banished. They have found many of these, and they include the names of many famous Athenians such as Perikles, Themistokles, Kleon, Miltiades, Thucydides etc. I just love thinking that these were written by ordinary citizens who actually knew these people and wanted rid of them. It makes them feel so much more real whereas there is something faintly mythical about reading their names in ancient texts. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

10 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I was actually going to start a thread about your favourite historical artefacts but it may as well go here. Mine might at first seem unusual, but I will explain! As an ancient history graduate, I have long studied famous people and events from long in the past. Great statues, buildings and valuable artefacts are great and it is nice to think that they were once inhabited by those people but for me nothing beats the feeling I get when I look at these ostraka from Athens.

Ancient Athens had a policy whereby anybody who was deemed to be getting too powerful could be ostracised for 10 years. They would vote on broken pieces of pottery (ostraka) and then whoever got the most would be banished. They have found many of these, and they include the names of many famous Athenians such as Perikles, Themistokles, Kleon, Miltiades, Thucydides etc. I just love thinking that these were written by ordinary citizens who actually knew these people and wanted rid of them. It makes them feel so much more real whereas there is something faintly mythical about reading their names in ancient texts. 

My fascination for history stems from similar reasons to yours in that I love to learn about ordinary people living their ordinary lives and social history rather than so much material out their on history which is about Kings and presidents and generals and generally the most famous and privileged people throughout history. 

My love of history in general comes from my love of stories and storytelling. I love model railways and model villages for the same reason because when I look at the tiny little characters in these scenes my mind starts to race making up life stories for them, giving them names, feeling desperate to know every little detail about them. I do this when I walk down the street. For example, this morning, walking to work in the dark through the council estate I would pass houses where there would be a small light on in a window or something like that and immediately I would want to know who lived there and why that light was in and thus I'd want to know everything about them. History is just like this in that it is an endless source of stories about people. 

I have often said to people that I do genuinely have an addiction to learning. 

Probably the greatest feeling I've ever had from seeing something was the first time I ever travelled to Berlin and I saw the Brandenburg Gate. I don't really know how to describe the exhilaration I felt from just seeing this building I'd seen a million pictures of all my life, the thought of all those people that had passed through it, all the stories those people could tell, all the random events that had taken place around that building. 

One of my most prized possessions is a tiny fragment of the Berlin Wall that a German friend got for me. A tiny little piece of concrete that encompasses so much history. The soldiers that patrolled it, the dissidents that escaped over it, the teenagers that graffitied it, the ordinary folk that passed through it's checkpoints on a daily basis, the demolition crews that finally pulled it down in the end which would lead to me owning that fragment. 

I could go on but this post is getting ridiculously long and I am actually at work so better get on!

[hw88]

32 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

 

I have often said to people that I do genuinely have an addiction to learning. 

Probably the greatest feeling I've ever had from seeing something was the first time I ever travelled to Berlin and I saw the Brandenburg Gate. I don't really know how to describe the exhilaration I felt from just seeing this building I'd seen a million pictures of all my life, the thought of all those people that had passed through it, all the stories those people could tell, all the random events that had taken place around that building. 

One of my most prized possessions is a tiny fragment of the Berlin Wall that a German friend got for me. A tiny little piece of concrete that encompasses so much history. The soldiers that patrolled it, the dissidents that escaped over it, the teenagers that graffitied it, the ordinary folk that passed through it's checkpoints on a daily basis, the demolition crews that finally pulled it down in the end which would lead to me owning that fragment. 

I could go on but this post is getting ridiculously long and I am actually at work so better get on!

The first time I saw the Brandenburg Gate was peering at it over the Berlin Wall. Getting to it was one of the weirdest train journey's I've ever taken - guards walking up and down and the train being sealed once it passed the East German border. Travelling through East Germany was like stepping back in time - cobled streets, Trabant cars, horse drawn farm vehicles, etc.

I've been to the Gate since and walked up and down Unter den Linden and often wondered at the great historical figures that must have done the same.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

3 minutes ago, hw88 said:

The first time I saw the Brandenburg Gate was peering at it over the Berlin Wall. Getting to it was one of the weirdest train journey's I've ever taken - guards walking up and down and the train being sealed once it passed the East German border. Travelling through East Germany was like stepping back in time - cobled streets, Trabant cars, horse drawn farm vehicles, etc.

I've been to the Gate since and walked up and down Unter den Linden and often wondered at the great historical figures that must have done the same.

Did you go through Freidrichstrasse Station and the Palace of Tears?