Disciplinary Panel

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Desert Skipper said:

You know what, it’s actually much more difficult than you think. It’s wired into the Limbic responses in our brain. It’s a hangover from our caveman days when all we had to do was fight to eat and live and reproduce. 

Now, as modern humans we have a highly-developed pre-frontal cortex (well I say we, maybe mine isn’t so much  ) that enables us to apply intelligent thought before we act on something. The problem is that the Limbic response is a survival tool that is way stronger and faster than the ‘thinking’ bit. So when you’re fighting after 80 minutes of hard slog and the adrenaline is pumping you are at risk of the caveman bit taking over.

Of course, with enough training and practice you can teach the brain to counter the Limbic response, but you won’t get it 100% perfect ever. If you could, you wouldn’t lose your temper, ever. And I know you have, just as I have, and regretted those actions.

I know a lot about the different reptilian, limbic and thinking parts of our brains. We had a day long lecture on it for work just a fortnight ago.

I would suggest firstly that at no point during a normal game circumstances, and certainly at no point during the incident in question, was McGuire put under such stress that his Brain's only response was to resort to unconscious primal instincts. And furthermore, that such primal instincts would not have involved him speaking the way he did.

He may not have been "thinking", but he was totally aware of what he was saying and why.

[ELBOWSEYE]

Polerized views, one extreme refuses to see a major problem, others see it as whats wrong with society. Woke or non woke no middle ground. I personally don't use offensive language now but have I yes in years past. But I understand that not every comment is meant in the way others take it. Are we going to far or not far enough I say both too far in some things not far enough in others. If only everything was so Black and white. 

[Desert Skipper]

31 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I would suggest firstly that at no point during a normal game circumstances, and certainly at no point during the incident in question, was McGuire put under such stress that his Brain's only response was to resort to unconscious primal instincts. And furthermore, that such primal instincts would not have involved him speaking the way he did

Well having listened to what goes on during a game of RL, in addition to different players’ own abilities to control their responses (we’re not all calm heads don’t forget) I can’t agree with that, just based on my experience experiences of course. I think it’s commonplace and its only the few incidents that actually get picked up and acted upon. There is a hell of a lot of work to do IMO to het anywhere near a clean and disciplined game.

Regarding treating use of the the s-term, whether targeted or not, whether in the heat of the moment or not:  If 8 games is the going rate, then fair enough. But somebody got 5 for playing with an opponent’s bits, and plenty get less for violent acts (Bentley?). My opinion only of course, but I see these as massively worse offences. Off the field I wouldn’t expect a loose non-PC term to carry a worse punishment than the latter two I mentioned.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Desert Skipper

[Griff]

1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Is that an actual word?.

No - it's whataboutery.

[Griff]

15 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

Regarding treating use of the the s-term, whether targeted or not, whether in the heat of the moment or not:  If 8 games is the going rate, then fair enough. 

Not so long ago since there were posts on this forum, congratulating clubs who had set up LDRL and PDRL teams.

Now we're condoning players who use offensive and derogatory terms.  Maybe they are school yard insults - so treat them like schoolkids.  It's not good enough and they know it.

[Exiled Wiganer]

25 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

Well having listened to what goes on during a game of RL, in addition to different players’ own abilities to control their responses (we’re not all calm heads don’t forget) I can’t agree with that, just based on my experience experiences of course. I think it’s commonplace and its only the few incidents that actually get picked up and acted upon. There is a hell of a lot of work to do IMO to het anywhere near a clean and disciplined game.

Regarding treating use of the the s-term, whether targeted or not, whether in the heat of the moment or not:  If 8 games is the going rate, then fair enough. But somebody got 5 for playing with an opponent’s bits, and plenty get less for violent acts (Bentley?). My opinion only of course, but I see these as massively worse offences. Off the field I wouldn’t expect a loose non-PC term to carry a worse punishment than the latter two I mentioned.

 

It’s not “non PC” - people rightly find it deeply offensive, and rightly so. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Exiled Wiganer said:

It’s not “non PC” - people rightly find it deeply offensive, and rightly so. 

PC. Virtue Signalling. Woke. 

They've all been quoted here. But people are *definitely* not condoning this. 

[Desert Skipper]

12 minutes ago, Griff said:

Not so long ago since there were posts on this forum, congratulating clubs who had set up LDRL and PDRL teams.

Now we're condoning players who use offensive and derogatory terms.  Maybe they are school yard insults - so treat them like schoolkids.  It's not good enough and they know it.

Nope, we’re not. 

[Desert Skipper]

4 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

It’s not “non PC” - people rightly find it deeply offensive, and rightly so. 

No one’s saying it’s not offensive are they? They’re debating whether the use of it in this context deserves a level of punishment equivalent to offences they deem more of a threat.

Pease don’t change the argument to fit a different narrative. I think maybe just one person way back in the thread passed it off as nothing, but that’s a different argument.

[Griff]

16 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

Nope, we’re not. 

Well, maybe posters should make that clearer because that's the inference I draw.

[Barry Badrinath]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

If anything, this makes it worse.

Using out of date terms towards a person or group actually affected by them is something which can often just need education more than anything else.

Using a term against someone who isn't XYZ is like saying "Your actions/behaviour/appearance is so bad, I'm going to humiliate you to stop doing this by comparing you to [insert group and appropriate slur here]"

If a professional RL player can't control what he says on the pitch, how can he control his other actions?

Just to say,  word going around wazza, is that whatever the leigh player is being charged with, isn't too  clever either, so we maybe coming back to this from a leigh pov in a couple of days.

 

 

[Barry Badrinath]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

If anything, this makes it worse.

Using out of date terms towards a person or group actually affected by them is something which can often just need education more than anything else.

Using a term against someone who isn't XYZ is like saying "Your actions/behaviour/appearance is so bad, I'm going to humiliate you to stop doing this by comparing you to [insert group and appropriate slur here]"

If a professional RL player can't control what he says on the pitch, how can he control his other actions?

Double post 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Barry Badrinath

[Desert Skipper]

14 minutes ago, Griff said:

Well, maybe posters should make that clearer because that's the inference I draw.

One poster I think, way back at the start of the thread.

FWIW, my youngest is autistic. If someone came up and targeted them with a derogatory term, I think I’d be justified in wanting some sort of serious action against  them.

If I saw a RL player (who is known for doing a lot of good stuff off the field) use the s-word in a heated argument, I’d probably be a bit p**ed off that he lost his cool and used it, but I’m smart enough to know that it’s a totally separate issue from targeted abuse, and I wouldn’t expect the same punishment. If anything I’d probably ask him to publicly apologise and donate a chunk of his hard earned match pay to an applicable charity.

But you know what, I’d be more hurt by people accusing me of condoning such a term, than I am by McGuire using the s-word in an on-field spat.

But hey, that’s just me. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Desert Skipper

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

Just to say,  word going around wazza, is that whatever the leigh player is being charged with, isn't too  clever either, so we maybe coming back to this from a leigh pov in a couple of days.

 

 

That very well may be so. I hope it is dealt with appropriately.

[Barry Badrinath]

Just now, Desert Skipper said:

One poster I think, way back at the start of the thread.

FWIW, my youngest is autistic. If someone came up and targeted them with a derogatory term, I think I’d be justified in wanting some sort of serious action against  them.

If I saw a RL player (who is known for doing a lot of good stuff off the field) use the s-word in a heated argument, I’d probably be a bit p**ed off that he lost his cool and used it, but I’m smart enough to know that it’s a totally separate issue from targeted abuse, and I wouldn’t expect the same punishment. If anything I’d probably ask him to publicly apologise and donate a chunk of his hard earned match pay to an applicable charity.

But you know what, I’n be more hurt by people accusing me of condoning such a term, than I am by McGuire using the s-word in an on-field spat.

But hey, that’s just me. 

I think I mentioned during the price incident,  I've got an sen child myself.

 

My question to mcguire, and actually is, how often is he saying this that out of the entire lexicon of swear words and insults that THAT is the first one that trip's off his tongue.

 

Thats what troubles me about this. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

I think I mentioned during the price incident,  I've got an sen child myself.

 

My question to mcguire, and actually is, how often is he saying this that out of the entire lexicon of swear words and insults that THAT is the first one that trip's off his tongue.

 

Thats what troubles me about this. 

I think this is part of the problem when we go into trying to argue context and tie ourselves in knots in justifying it. None of that is too important to be honest - this shouldn't be accepted on an RL field. 

And I would argue that by posters bringing up PC, Woke, Virtue Signalling, challenging whether those complaining have been in battle, and discussing brain functions to offer a mitigant is as close to condoning as you can get. 

[Desert Skipper]

6 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

I think I mentioned during the price incident,  I've got an sen child myself.

 

My question to mcguire, and actually is, how often is he saying this that out of the entire lexicon of swear words and insults that THAT is the first one that trip's off his tongue.

 

Thats what troubles me about this. 

I obviously don’t know the answer to that, but what I do know is that McGuire is greatly respected off the field (I think we all know he’s a grubby little s**t on it - even before this!) and he does a lot of good stuff off his own back for others. I also know he is from an army family and growing up in that environment often means blue language and offensive terms are commonplace. That’s the nature of the beast.

So whilst I don’t know whether he uses that term very often on the field, I doubt he’d knowingly band it about in public without caring whether he hurt the feelings of any affected individuals.

[RigbyLuger]

55 minutes ago, Griff said:

Not so long ago since there were posts on this forum, congratulating clubs who had set up LDRL and PDRL teams.

Now we're condoning players who use offensive and derogatory terms.  Maybe they are school yard insults - so treat them like schoolkids.  It's not good enough and they know it.

I was at school in the 80s and told not to use that word, so it's not as if it is should be a shock to anyone posting here it's seem that way (players from outside the UK may have an excuse, I have no idea.)

[Desert Skipper]

1 minute ago, RigbyLuger said:

I was at school in the 80s and told not to use that word, so it's not as if it is should be a shock to anyone posting here it's seem that way (players from outside the UK may have an excuse, I have no idea.)

Again, the debate isn’t about whether it’s acceptable (now or in the past). It’s about whether the punishment reflects the circumstances compared to other grade F offences, and compared to intended targeted abuse.

I think everyone agrees the word is unacceptable and deserves some form of punishment. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Desert Skipper said:

Well having listened to what goes on during a game of RL, in addition to different players’ own abilities to control their responses (we’re not all calm heads don’t forget) I can’t agree with that, just based on my experience experiences of course. I think it’s commonplace and its only the few incidents that actually get picked up and acted upon. There is a hell of a lot of work to do IMO to het anywhere near a clean and disciplined game.

If that was a legitimate defence, nobody would be in prison and criminal justice would be totally pointless.

Its nonsense.

[Desert Skipper]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

If that was a legitimate defence, nobody would be in prison and criminal justice would be totally pointless.

Its nonsense.

But it’s not a defence claiming non-guilt is it? It’s a defence against treating all uses of a term as deserving the same sentence, despite the circumstances.

When someone kills another person, the sentence isn’t the same for manslaughter as it is for murder. That’s not nonsense IMO.

But for clarity, we are in agreement that a sentence of some sort should be imposed.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Desert Skipper said:

But it’s not a defence claiming non-guilt is it? It’s a defence against treating all uses of a term as deserving the same sentence, despite the circumstances.

When someone kills another person, the sentence isn’t the same for manslaughter as it is for murder. That’s not nonsense IMO.

But for clarity, we are in agreement that a sentence of some sort should be imposed.

It is an attempt at a defence to claim that you weren't fully in control of your actions due to the stress of a situation. Acting on instinct doesn't stand up in court on this one.

[Desert Skipper]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

It is an attempt at a defence to claim that you weren't fully in control of your actions due to the stress of a situation. Acting on instinct doesn't stand up in court on this one.

I don’t think players always are always fully in control on the field during a spat. And that sometimes spills over into ugly reactions. Should they be punished? Of course. Should two players in a spat be punished in the same way as a player who goes out and targets abuse at say, a homosexual player, to put him off? Not IMO. Two different offences.

Anyway, let’s agree to disagree on the loss of control issue. I don’t think either of us will sway on that one based on our own experiences.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Desert Skipper said:

Should two players in a spat be punished in the same way as a player who goes out and targets abuse at say, a homosexual player, to put him off? Not IMO. Two different offences.

On this specific bit, I think that's fair. The grade for this is F, which can award a far more serious punishment than the stating level. 

I'd expect an instance like the above to be treated even more seriously. 

But the RFL did rather show how they pay lip service when Hardaker got his ban for a very public offence with a gay referee stood next to him. 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

I don’t think players always are always fully in control on the field during a spat. And that sometimes spills over into ugly reactions. Should they be punished? Of course. Should two players in a spat be punished in the same way as a player who goes out and targets abuse at say, a homosexual player, to put him off? Not IMO. Two different offences.

Anyway, let’s agree to disagree on the loss of control issue. I don’t think either of us will sway on that one based on our own experiences.

You were arguing that the limbic system takes over and players can't control themselves as a defence. That is, frankly, ludicrous in this scenario.

He will be punished appropriately for behaving abhorrently and bringing his club and the sport into disrepute by his language.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Tommygilf