Disciplinary Panel

[RP London]

16 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

As with lots comments on here people write/speak without thinking, just as you have. The last section saying you would sack them. What you make your mind up before carrying out a full independant investigation, a hearing where the accused would have their chance to explain. Now thats illegal. 

Funny how some people use moral outrage when something suits their narrative but are willing to ride roughshod over centuries of hard earned rights for workers.

Its gross misconduct and a straight sacking. what explanation gets you away from gross misconduct and a sacking? 

Workers have rights, of course, but so do companies for protecting their name, hence if it was in the yard with the public able to hear them and they use that language they are gone.. If they are swearing at a volume people can readily hear outside the factory yard they are warned .. there is no excuse for it, sorry. (they're told to tone it down in the factory if they are shouting profanities as well, there is no need for it)

in terms of "not thinking" unlike some I am talking from actually having to deal with similar in the past.. this is how i did it and with our lawyers blessing and with no issues. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by RP London

[ELBOWSEYE]

55 minutes ago, RP London said:

Its gross misconduct and a straight sacking. what explanation gets you away from gross misconduct and a sacking? 

Workers have rights, of course, but so do companies for protecting their name, hence if it was in the yard with the public able to hear them and they use that language they are gone.. If they are swearing at a volume people can readily hear outside the factory yard they are warned .. there is no excuse for it, sorry. (they're told to tone it down in the factory if they are shouting profanities as well, there is no need for it)

in terms of "not thinking" unlike some I am talking from actually having to deal with similar in the past.. this is how i did it and with our lawyers blessing and with no issues. 

I will chose to disagree with your opinion on the due process, I have been on both sides but more recently saving small companies thinking what you state from tribunal and losing what they thought were cast iron cases and should have been. But I was just being picky or pedantic its not really relevant to this incident. 

[Dave T]

It is a bit of a red herring to try and compare across incidents that are very different. There are reasons, and yes, sometimes they are political, why certain offences are more harshly treated than others. 

Some people may think it is harsh to get a punishment for a little bet on a game that you have nowt to do with, but that's what often happens. Some of the biggest bans we have seen in our game have been for someone snorting coke on a night out. Many would deem what Ben Flower did a far more serious than what Zak Hardaker did for example.

I don't think we need to look for consistency for wildly different offences. We can treat verbal abuse in it's own bubble, just as we treat gambling or drug taking in their own bubbles.

We have just come off the back of the most inclusive RLWC ever, our SL launch was a joint one with women and wheelchair leagues, we are seeing more of a push on PDRL and LDRL - this is the context we should be focusing on, not whether a player lived in a small town where this was standard, or had a military family etc. 

[dkw]

2 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

As with lots comments on here people write/speak without thinking, just as you have. The last section saying you would sack them. What you make your mind up before carrying out a full independant investigation, a hearing where the accused would have their chance to explain. Now thats illegal. 

Funny how some people use moral outrage when something suits their narrative but are willing to ride roughshod over centuries of hard earned rights for workers.

Where did he say he would sack the immediately without an investigation? You presumed all of that so you could be morally outraged at his opinion.

[GUBRATS]

I can see the defence coming right now , " no I didn't call him that , I called him a ' spotty shirted dick ' "

Edited February 14, 2023 by GUBRATS

[binosh]

Why do posters keep comparing a rugby field to a workplace?

[ELBOWSEYE]

53 minutes ago, dkw said:

Where did he say he would sack the immediately without an investigation? You presumed all of that so you could be morally outraged at his opinion.

I am not morally outraged I was just highlighting how we all use moral arguments to suit are views. And on the technical issue I respectfully ask you to read it again and not allow your moral outrage () to cloud your understanding. 

DKW 

Just to clarify that which really is not a direct comparison. If you state you are going to sack an employee before you have a disciplinary process, you are deemed to have made your mind up before hand therefore not giving the employee a fair hearing. 

That what I was highlighting so if took Mcguire and Warrington after hearing of his indiscretion just sacked him without going through due process, he would 100% win an unfair dismissal case and be paid his contract. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by ELBOWSEYE

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, binosh said:

Why do posters keep comparing a rugby field to a workplace?

You do know Josh McGuire aint here for free don't you? He isn't Kris Radlinski.

[RP London]

30 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I am not morally outraged I was just highlighting how we all use moral arguments to suit are views. And on the technical issue I respectfully ask you to read it again and not allow your moral outrage () to cloud your understanding. 

DKW 

Just to clarify that which really is not a direct comparison. If you state you are going to sack an employee before you have a disciplinary process, you are deemed to have made your mind up before hand therefore not giving the employee a fair hearing. 

That what I was highlighting so if took Mcguire and Warrington after hearing of his indiscretion just sacked him without going through due process, he would 100% win an unfair dismissal case and be paid his contract. 

Did I really need to go through the entire HR procedure to get the point across?

I hardly need to go "if after several hearings and months of working it out, plus a consultation with my lawyers, several interviews with different staff members, and sleeping on it" surely??

This entire thread is about consequences if found guilty.. we're all prejudging that he said it, some people saying it was justified (which is mindblowing to me) and then about the sentence. My simple point (hence surely no need to go through the company handbook) was that if someone did this (and found guilty, as we are talking about McGuire in that sense) then they would be sacked.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by RP London

[ELBOWSEYE]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

Did I really need to go through the entire HR procedure to get the point across?

I hardly need to go "if after several hearings and months of working it out, plus a consultation with my lawyers, several interviews with different staff members, and sleeping on it" surely??

This entire thread is about consequences if found guilty.. we're all prejudging that he said it, some people saying it was justified (which is mindblowing to me) and then about the sentence. My simple point (hence surely no need to go through the company handbook) was that if someone did this (and found guilty, as we are talking about McGuire in that sense) then they would be sacked.

 

No I was just being pedantic and throwing abit of humour (only I found it funny) you just treated with the response it deserved what I did not expect was DKW getting wound up. So hopefully I can put that fishing rod away before I catch unexpected people on the line. 

[dkw]

Ah, the old "I was just on a wind up " nonsense....

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, binosh said:

Why do posters keep comparing a rugby field to a workplace?

Because, legally (I've just checked), it is.

Hence why clubs have to meet minimum requirements as laid out by Health & Safety at Work Act and the like. The act of paying players turns the place where they play into a workplace.

[RigbyLuger]

Treating players as somehow more important than a worker in another job may be why some feel they can get away with using homophobic/racist/ableist slurs and still remain employed in the same industry.

[phiggins]

Still no idea what Amone is supposed to have said, or to who. Guessing it wasn't the officials he said anything to, as you'd hope they'd have sent him off.

Assume it will all be known after the hearing.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

Still no idea what Amone is supposed to have said, or to who. Guessing it wasn't the officials he said anything to, as you'd hope they'd have sent him off.

Assume it will all be known after the hearing.

Not necessarily. These hearings, and their appeals, can be very opaque sometimes.

[Tommygilf]

Been thinking about the "intensity of battle" comments and stuff like that, and perhaps because I'm a bit desensitised to it, but I've seen and been in far worse than what McGuire was exposed to during that game. 

Perhaps McGuire needs some red mist training if he can't control himself. Or, as I suspect, he thinks that is acceptable as an insult and he thought so at the time, he needs reminding very strongly that it isn't.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Been thinking about the "intensity of battle" comments and stuff like that, and perhaps because I'm a bit desensitised to it, but I've seen and been in far worse than what McGuire was exposed to during that game. 

Perhaps McGuire needs some red mist training if he can't control himself. Or, as I suspect, he thinks that is acceptable as an insult and he thought so at the time, he needs reminding very strongly that it isn't.

Obviously none of us know what happened yet, as it passed without many realising he had been sent off, but when you watch the highlights, you see that Wire score, and Mcguire is there celebrating. There was no scuffle after the try, but before the conversion was taken he was sent off. 

This all happened right in front of us, so unless we all missed something (and I mean all of us, including reporters etc) then it hardly feels like Mcguire was in a high intensity situation, bearing in mind just seconds earlier he was celebrating a try. 

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Obviously none of us know what happened yet, as it passed without many realising he had been sent off, but when you watch the highlights, you see that Wire score, and Mcguire is there celebrating. There was no scuffle after the try, but before the conversion was taken he was sent off. 

This all happened right in front of us, so unless we all missed something (and I mean all of us, including reporters etc) then it hardly feels like Mcguire was in a high intensity situation, bearing in mind just seconds earlier he was celebrating a try. 

Yeah exactly. It really is nonsense isn't it.

[Tippytoe]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Been thinking about the "intensity of battle" comments and stuff like that, and perhaps because I'm a bit desensitised to it, but I've seen and been in far worse than what McGuire was exposed to during that game. 

Perhaps McGuire needs some red mist training if he can't control himself. Or, as I suspect, he thinks that is acceptable as an insult and he thought so at the time, he needs reminding very strongly that it isn't.

What is an acceptable insult btw?

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Tippytoe said:

What is an acceptable insult btw?

No*head. 

[Chrispmartha]

7 Games for McGuire

0 for Amone

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Tippytoe said:

What is an acceptable insult btw?

Dancing past your opponent to score the match winning try.

[binosh]

Looks like some posters on here will be smug on their pedestals tonight as Warrington lose a new signing for a quarter of the season.

 

[Dave T]

I wonder what the club will do/say now. 

Picking up a ban for a quarter of the SL campaign before the season isn't good enough. And this is a bloke who is part of the leadership team. 

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, binosh said:

Looks like some posters on here will be smug on their pedestals tonight as Warrington lose a new signing for a quarter of the season.

 

Pour encourager les autres.