IMG Grading Unveiled

[RP London]

5 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

NO, being an A is meeting the minimum standard TO BE AN "A" not to be in SL.  They are not letting Bs in to make up the league.

Half of SL will/may probably be Bs are you saying they REALLY shouldn't be there???

Deleted see below

Edited March 31, 2023 by RP London

[RP London]

3 hours ago, glossop saint said:

And superleague should be a league full of As. Hence why they will expand to accommodate As. Unfortunately at the moment there aren't enough As to make a league and so there needs to be some Bs in there. Since they don't meet the minimum standards to be in their by right they the top Bs are being invited in whilst they improve to be an A.

It's not the hardest of concepts imho

[RP London]

5 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

NO, being an A is meeting the minimum standard TO BE AN "A" not to be in SL.  They are not letting Bs in to make up the league.

Half of SL will/may probably be Bs are you saying they REALLY shouldn't be there???

Sorry my earlier answer was flippant so I've come back in time to answer properly...

Actually yes I am saying that. The grade A marking is what you expect form a club in a modern professional sport. Good ground up to the standard a TV company need to televise to a good quality, with social interaction and without relying on central funding.. thats an A.. 

For years we have said that Belle Vue and the mend a hose is not up to scratch but nothing happens, minimum standards are ignored etc.. poor crowds in good stadiums are passed off...  thinking people will come "just for the game..  its the greatest game".. and for years its been utter rubbish. 

Now is the line in the sand.. get your game up, get your grounds up to scratch and get into the modern world.. otherwise, frankly, this game is semi pro.. which is where, at the moment, most are hence the wages for players really isn't where it should be etc.

Grade A teams are there.. top grade Bs have a chance (hence stay in super league) but if they don't move towards the A by doing things any modern professional sport will expect then yes someone will overtake you... 

Sorry its harsh, sorry some clubs are upset but if we have any chance of making it as a professinal sport then this is what HAS to happen... and this should be no surprise to anyone it's been being said for at least 20 years! Anyone who doesn't want to do it, fine, but the consequences are on you not those that want to move forward.. 

You won't agree and that's fine but your "visions" is semi professionalism at best. That's just the way it is now. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by RP London

[Dovster]

13 hours ago, glossop saint said:

I wasn't the one slowly getting there. I've just jumped a couple of steps. Similar to those who claim Leigh wouldn't have been promoted last season and that RFL/IMG want them out of SL, despite plenty of posts to the contrary. With the levels of insecurity amongst some then they should be posting on the conspiracy theory thread on the politics board.

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that IMG would like Toulouse in Super League. Without automatic P&R would Leigh have replaced Toulouse? - Perdonally I don't think so.

It is also possible that IMG want to spread our game geographically and the fear is that this could be at the "heartlands" expence.

Another arguement here is - has Leigh's success (so far) come on the back of the current system or the proposed system. I don't think that we agree on this.

Rugby League is in a very difficult position to move forward. We need to remain strong where we are currently strong and spread to grow. This is the dilema facing IMG. 

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Dovster said:

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that IMG would like Toulouse in Super League. Without automatic P&R would Leigh have replaced Toulouse? - Perdonally I don't think so.

It is also possible that IMG want to spread our game geographically and the fear is that this could be at the "heartlands" expence.

Another arguement here is - has Leigh's success (so far) come on the back of the current system or the proposed system. I don't think that we agree on this.

Rugby League is in a very difficult position to move forward. We need to remain strong where we are currently strong and spread to grow. This is the dilema facing IMG. 

Without automatic P/R Leigh replaced Toronto (and were chosen ahead of Toulouse).

[Dovster]

24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Without automatic P/R Leigh replaced Toronto (and were chosen ahead of Toulouse).

Not entirely sure but I thought this was before IMG had been involved. Either way it wasn't based on Toulouse having a year in SL.

[Chrispmartha]

They’re really starting to embarrass themselves now.

I realise they are trying an April fools joke but still…

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Chrispmartha

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, RP London said:

Sorry my earlier answer was flippant so I've come back in time to answer properly...

Actually yes I am saying that. The grade A marking is what you expect form a club in a modern professional sport. Good ground up to the standard a TV company need to televise to a good quality, with social interaction and without relying on central funding.. thats an A.. 

For years we have said that Belle Vue and the mend a hose is not up to scratch but nothing happens, minimum standards are ignored etc.. poor crowds in good stadiums are passed off...  thinking people will come "just for the game..  its the greatest game".. and for years its been utter rubbish. 

Now is the line in the sand.. get your game up, get your grounds up to scratch and get into the modern world.. otherwise, frankly, this game is semi pro.. which is where, at the moment, most are hence the wages for players really isn't where it should be etc.

Grade A teams are there.. top grade Bs have a chance (hence stay in super league) but if they don't move towards the A by doing things any modern professional sport will expect then yes someone will overtake you... 

Sorry its harsh, sorry some clubs are upset but if we have any chance of making it as a professinal sport then this is what HAS to happen... and this should be no surprise to anyone it's been being said for at least 20 years! Anyone who doesn't want to do it, fine, but the consequences are on you not those that want to move forward.. 

You won't agree and that's fine but your "visions" is semi professionalism at best. That's just the way it is now. 

I agree with what you class as an "A"

I also agree that eventually IMG wants SL to be all "A"s.

Then and only then will SL minimum standards be "A" minimum standards as you state above.

But for now if "B"s are allowed in to SL - then SL minimum standards can only be at "B" level.

The line in the sand as you state correctly only will apply when you have 12 SL "A" teams [I haven't been Belle Vue and the mend a hose ground for years] so cant comment - but going off your statement above the line in the sand will eject them from SL only when the 12th "A" arrives. Because they may still be there as "B"s

All I have ever said on here about grades are that "A"s are all same, "B"s are all same, "C"s are all same. and grading is for guidance to show where improvement needed etc.

Someone one stated earlier [80+ pages now cant remember who}  that "B" should only get promoted if they reach SL minimum standards and as I just said above that is wrong SL minimum standards can only be at "B" level.

So we cant have "B" refused promotion because any current SL team finishing bottom which is still a "B" has a better points.

"A"s are safe agreed - but "B"s are not.  So Normal P&R should apply for all "B"s no grading protection.

If Warrington or Hull etc to use as example has a stinker and they finish bottom and are still a "B"  they go down end of.

Also your last statement that my "visions" is semi professionalism at best, is wrong.

I would like every team especially mine to be playing at SL level with F/T players but that cannot happen while only 12 teams get the money to pay for it.

If IMG get a load of extra money [doubt it] thy should IMO start bringing the CF for all the other teams up to match the £1.5 M that SL 12 get then others can aim to be an "A".

But i fear that they will just give it, or the majority of it to the chosen few and the game will be in a worse state.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Derwent Parker

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Dovster said:

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that IMG would like Toulouse in Super League. Without automatic P&R would Leigh have replaced Toulouse? - Perdonally I don't think so.

It is also possible that IMG want to spread our game geographically and the fear is that this could be at the "heartlands" expence.

Another arguement here is - has Leigh's success (so far) come on the back of the current system or the proposed system. I don't think that we agree on this.

Rugby League is in a very difficult position to move forward. We need to remain strong where we are currently strong and spread to grow. This is the dilema facing IMG. 

I understand the concerns about expansion over heartland. Personally I think the grading system should give some form of comfort though (I know there are points for location)..

Heartland clubs know what would get them an A.. they know what will get them higher Bs etc 

Also, and possibly more importantly, if there are enough clubs of a high enough standard then IMG have said they want the league to expand (mainly because of those clubs exist the commercial level of the game will have risen) where as at the moment without clubs stepping up 14 is a pipe dream, therefore by definition expansion MUST be at the expense of a heartland team.. 

[RP London]

23 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

I agree with what you class as an "A"

I also agree that eventually IMG wants SL to be all "A"s.

Then and only then will SL minimum standards be "A" minimum standards as you state above.

But for now if "B"s are allowed in to SL - then SL minimum standards can only be at "B" level.

The line in the sand as you state correctly only will apply when you have 12 SL "A" teams [I haven't been Belle Vue and the mend a hose ground for years] so cant comment - but going off your statement above the line in the sand will eject them from SL only when the 12th "A" arrives. Because they may still be there as "B"s

All I have ever said on here about grades are that "A"s are all same, "B"s are all same, "C"s are all same. and grading is for guidance to show where improvement needed etc.

Someone one stated earlier [80+ pages now cant remember who}  that "B" should only get promoted if they reach SL minimum standards and as I just said above that is wrong SL minimum standards can only be at "B" level.

So we cant have "B" refused promotion because any current SL team finishing bottom which is still a "B" has a better points.

"A"s are safe agreed - but "B"s are not

Totally disagree, even though you put things in bold. I'm glad you agree with me about the first 2 things re grade A because they are facts and if you didn't it would be strange. 

The minimum standard is an A hence they are safe

The Bs are being invited to take part in the league because they need more teams to make the league up to 12. It is in the gift, frankly, of the custodians of the league (IMG/rfl at the moment) to invite who they like. They want the strongest Bs involved therefore do this by extra gradings within the league..  

I wouldn't mind them having P&R between all the Bs but I can see why they want to make sure that the B coming up is showing more than the B going down otherwise 1 there will be no progression towards all As and 2 there will be clubs trying to get there that just can't get a team put together for one reason or another and that could mean potentially strong clubs that can benefit all stick in limbo..

This is IMO solving some of the issues we have seen for the past 10 years with yo yo clubs potential not being fulfilled but also, and importantly, super league clubs not pulling their weight/socks up and not being able to be replaced... 

You don't agree and that's fine but don't get sucked into the fallacy that the business of professional sport is the same as amateur nor should it be, it isn't fair and it is based on money  because people need to get paid and deserve to be paid a fair wage for putting their bodies on the line. To do that you need some quality clubs with commercial viability and strength, it isn't fair to clubs trying to achieve this to lumber them with millstones around their neck.. again it's harsh but it's the way that it is, like it or not. 

(And putting things in bold does not make them a fact or true BTW)

Edited April 1, 2023 by RP London

[steve oates]

1 hour ago, Dovster said:

It is ...... possible that IMG want to spread our game geographically and the fear is that this could be at the "heartlands" expence.

Rugby League is in a very difficult position to move forward. We need to remain strong where we are currently strong and spread to grow. This is the dilema facing IMG. 

No it's not. Not at all......  IMG's only dilemma is to get some money out of this process

Where do you think we are suddenly going to "spread our game geographically" because it's clear to me it doesn't work in Canada, it doesn't work in Cornwall, it doesn't work in Nottingham. Attempts to spread the game started over 100 years ago and to date there haven't been any real succeses apart from the Cumbrian coast and the game is now receding there.

What still works in modern times is the M62 rivalries of Leeds/Bradford, Hull/HKR, Wigan/Saints, Leigh/Wigan, Warrington/Widnes, Castleford/Wakefield etc.  What works is Catalans for the anglo french rivalry....

Outside that structure nothing has ever worked. "Spread and grow" where? Over 50 attempts to plant the game beyond the M62 over many years and none have worked. The strongest Superleague we can put together to attract the strongest TV deals is already in place.

The issue is to get the highest priced TV contracts for showcasing these clubs.......

[Dovster]

16 minutes ago, RP London said:

I understand the concerns about expansion over heartland. Personally I think the grading system should give some form of comfort though (I know there are points for location)..

Heartland clubs know what would get them an A.. they know what will get them higher Bs etc 

Also, and possibly more importantly, if there are enough clubs of a high enough standard then IMG have said they want the league to expand (mainly because of those clubs exist the commercial level of the game will have risen) where as at the moment without clubs stepping up 14 is a pipe dream, therefore by definition expansion MUST be at the expense of a heartland team.. 

Interesting times ahead!

[RP London]

Just now, Dovster said:

Interesting times ahead!

Definitely.. I personally think its our best shot at really stepping up a gear (as always with progression some will be left behind and it's not going to be popular and scary for those that are on the edge so think the rumblings against aren't necessarily a bad sign) but it is far from guaranteed... 

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Dovster said:

Interesting times ahead!

If you count divisive, opinionated,downsizing and angry as interesting I agree.

[Dovster]

2 minutes ago, steve oates said:

No it's not. Not at all......  IMG's only dilemma is to get some money out of this process

Where do you think we are suddenly going to "spread our game geographically" because it's clear to me it doesn't work in Canada, it doesn't work in Cornwall, it doesn't work in Nottingham. Attempts to spread the game started over 100 years ago and to date there haven't been any real succeses apart from the Cumbrian coast and the game is now receding there.

What still works in modern times is the M62 rivalries of Leeds/Bradford, Hull/HKR, Wigan/Saints, Leigh/Wigan, Warrington/Widnes, Castleford/Wakefield etc.  What works is Catalans for the anglo french rivalry....

Outside that structure nothing has ever worked. "Spread and grow" where? Over 50 attempts to plant the game beyond the M62 over many years and none have worked. The strongest Superleague we can put together to attract the strongest TV deals is already in place.

The issue is to get the highest priced TV contracts for showcasing these clubs.......

It is hard to disagree with most of what you say. I suppose the only point is that if RL stays in a small geographical area it will eventually reach its ceiling amd IMG will know this.. Perhaps IMG can help bring in a successful strategy for growth outside of the north of England and raise the standards within our current playing areas.

[Dovster]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

If you count divisive, opinionated,downsizing and angry as interesting I agree.

I guess thats one point of view

[Derwent Parker]

8 minutes ago, RP London said:

Totally disagree, even though you put things in bold. I'm glad you agree with me about the first 2 things re grade A because they are facts and if you didn't it would be strange. 

The minimum standard is an A hence they are safe

The Bs are being invited to take part in the league because they need more teams to make the league up to 12. It is in the gift, frankly, of the custodians of the league (IMG/rfl at the moment) to invite who they like. They want the strongest Bs involved therefore do this by extra gradings within the league..  

I wouldn't mind them having P&R between all the Bs but I can see why they want to make sure that the B coming up is showing more than the B going down otherwise 1 there will be no progression towards all As and 2 there will be clubs trying to get there that just can't get a team put together for one reason or another and that could mean potentially strong clubs that can benefit all stick in limbo..

This is IMO solving some of the issues we have seen for the past 10 years with yo yo clubs potential not being fulfilled but also, and importantly, super league clubs not pulling their weight/socks up and not being able to be replaced... 

You don't agree and that's fine but don't get sucked into the fallacy that the business of professional sport is the same as amateur nor should it be, it isn't fair and it is based on money  because people need to get paid and deserve to be paid a fair wage for putting their bodies on the line. To do that you need some quality clubs with commercial viability and strength, it isn't fair to clubs trying to achieve this to lumber them with millstones around their neck.. again it's harsh but it's the way that it is, like it or not. 

(And putting things in bold does not make them a fact or true BTW)

Firstly if I want to use Bold or CAPS or even itallics - I have every right to do so

Your version of this is just PROTECTIONISM for the current SL teams

And that's why some teams are not happy about these new plans [found colour button]

Will look at the IMG doc again because I cant remember where it says "The Bs are being invited to take part in the league"

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Dovster said:

I guess thats one point of view

I'll take it that you've not read this thread much then.

[steve oates]

8 minutes ago, RP London said:

Totally disagree, The Bs are being invited to take part in the league because they need more teams to make the league up to 12.

Nonsense. But not of your doing my friend.........

Again the interest and money and Audiences at home in front of the TV and at the grounds lie with the right clubs in Superleague. Wigan may be an "A" and Leigh might be a "B" but what does that matter, if at the end of the day there's a big crowd at the match and great TV viewing.

There is no League of "A" clubs and if any of the "B" clubs are told they are sub standard what then? Are the (maybe not that) rich owners supposed to sink more of their £Millions in to somehow correct whatever shortcomings their "B" status imply??  There aren't that many rich backers we can't afford to cheese them off.

The idea of "B"'s "being invited to take part in the league" which they already are part of is another nonsense. Fine though, if there turns out to be only say 4 "A"s let them have a league of their own see where that goes.

[Dovster]

2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I'll take it that you've not read this thread much then.

No not thw whole 80 pages. From what i have read, there appears to be a great many assumptions agueing other assumptions.

It is a very important subject (RL future depends on getting it right) and everyone as their own opinion.

Let's hope they get it right.

[Oxford]

Just now, Dovster said:

No not thw whole 80 pages. From what i have read, there appears to be a great many assumptions agueing other assumptions.

Yes but they're divided angry etc assumptions.

 

1 minute ago, Dovster said:

It is a very important subject (RL future depends on getting it right) and everyone as their own opinion.

Yes because we're divided etc

2 minutes ago, Dovster said:

Let's hope they get it right.

I think you've found the one thing everyone would love to agree on there.

[Dovster]

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Yes but they're divided angry etc assumptions.

 

Yes because we're divided etc

I think you've found the one thing everyone would love to agree on there.

If by divided you mean a wide ranging number of opinions on the subject. I agree

[steve oates]

14 minutes ago, Dovster said:

It is hard to disagree with most of what you say. I suppose the only point is that if RL stays in a small geographical area it will eventually reach its ceiling amd IMG will know this.. Perhaps IMG can help bring in a successful strategy for growth outside of the north of England and raise the standards within our current playing areas.

But the club owners and fans know the game has reached it's ceiling because this last 20 odd years has involved potential new clubs looking to form teams that could grow into Superleague clubs. None worked.........

With respect you give these IMG people far too much Kudos. How are they going to identify anywhere where RL can be developed to the level of the Superleague clubs? We have people in the game like Gary Hetherington who has been there and tried that. but more than that what do IMg know about Rugby League?

Absolutely nothing, which is why they are just mucking about hoping for a few quid with this A-B-C rubbish.

[redjonn]

7 minutes ago, steve oates said:

But the club owners and fans know the game has reached it's ceiling because this last 20 odd years has involved potential new clubs looking to form teams that could grow into Superleague clubs. None worked.........

With respect you give these IMG people far too much Kudos. How are they going to identify anywhere where RL can be developed to the level of the Superleague clubs? We have people in the game like Gary Hetherington who has been there and tried that. but more than that what do IMg know about Rugby League?

Absolutely nothing, which is why they are just mucking about hoping for a few quid with this A-B-C rubbish.

What I had hoped was that IMG would bring in their marketing capabilities, skills and knowledge to initially grow what we have.  That is the basic investment in marketing that prevented the game in its current guise to reach its ceiling. 

Once we start to hit the ceiling then was the time to begin investing in expansion beyond its current footprint. This of course meaning all clubs taking less central funding to reallocate to that expansion plan.

For whatever reason we seemed to have pinned our hopes on the A, B, C ofsted approach.

Edited April 1, 2023 by redjonn

[steve oates]

14 minutes ago, RP London said:

every league is an invitation league, no team/club has a given right to be in a league just because they exist, the leagues are run by organisations that invite you to take part and can throw you out too... but again you're not daft so you know and understand this you're just being uppity for effect. 

So who are at risk of being thrown out then? Not Saints, Leeds, Wigan and Warrington that's for sure...

But Cas have a rubbish ground (out they go)  Same for Wakey (out they go) some money problems at Salford (Out they go) Huddersfield have poor attendances(out they go) ............. 

Which "A" clubs are you going to suggest replace then?