life below super league

[south yorkshire]

Life below super league is so tough for clubs take the championship 14 teams about 8 spending money they probably haven't got to try and get to the promise land while the other six are spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship and avoid the nightmare that is league one. League one traditional are clubs are probably spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one. When they do get out they hit another wall of having to spend more money just to try and avoid going back down to league one. Championship and league one is not working for any team. The answer is simple one league of 24 playing each other once and your nearest neighbours twice .24 game season 12 home 12 away top 8 make playoffs. Yes you still have clubs spending money trying to get into top 8 and super league but not a disaster if you don't make it. Teams would have more time to develop younger players as threat of relegation would be removed. Teams can build slowly. It would I think be more appealing for a tv deal with more games and derbies to chose from. The 1895 cup rebranded as the championship cup still play final at Wembley.8 groups of three with group games doubling up with championship games to reduce fixture list. Top team in each group of three make quarter finals with group games doubling as league games they would be no dead rubbers. So that's 24 league round plus 3 championship play off rounds and 3 championship cup round 30 games. Plus the challenge cup where most teams could expect to play at least two games. 1 st round proper I have 16 amateur teams join the 24 championship teams. The 20 winners would then be joined by the 12 super league sides in round 2 the last 32 . Then straight knock out from there.                

[Eddie]

I think there is some merit in that, my main concern being what Fev would do to Skolars for example. League one is clearly not working for the fallen heartlands clubs. 

[The Masked Poster]

Some paragraphs would be nice.

 

Sorry, don't mean to be rude 

Edited August 1, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[south yorkshire]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I think there is some merit in that, my main concern being what Fev would do to Skolars for example. League one is clearly not working for the fallen heartlands clubs. 

Probably what Leigh did to York last season so what's the difference?

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

Probably what Leigh did to York last season so what's the difference?

That would happen to someone every week though. 

[south yorkshire]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

That would happen to someone every week though. 

It does now plenty of one sided games both in the championship and league 1. Only time some games look competitive is when lower team is full of duel reg players like what happened to Donny against Hurricannes. 

[Gav Wilson]

Its a no from me.

[south yorkshire]

15 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Its a no from me.

be interested to know why and which team you follow?

Edited August 1, 2023 by south yorkshire

[Derwent Parker]

19 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

It does now plenty of one sided games both in the championship and league 1. Only time some games look competitive is when lower team is full of duel reg players like what happened to Donny against Hurricannes. 

Dual Reg should be scrapped.

[overtheborder]

It's an interesting concept and would be potentially fascinating that anyone could get into SL, without having been promoted into the division below (ignoring the fact that this is what this is anyway).

Two glaring questions for me:

1) Would this lead to more mismatches (a previous poster used Fev vs Skolars as an example)?

2) Does that open the door to a single-season big-spending franchise buying their way into SL in an ultimately unsustainable way, that then leads to them either going bust part way through a Super League campaign as the bubble bursts, or simply getting battered every week as they can't sustain the level of spending that got them there?

For me it's an interesting idea if you've got a lot of roughly even teams in the league.

 

The biggest question I have around the divisions below SL is whether it would be better for the game for some teams to step back, move to smaller grounds (being able to charge less than say 20 quid for a League One match), build a real community and then build up from there. It's not a criticism of the clubs in those divisions, it's just something I've thought about for a while as someone who does enjoy RL at those levels.

[sheddingswasus]

Sounds an interesting suggestion. In many respects similar to how the league worked in the days before we went to two divisions in the early sixties. 
With respect to blow our scores we had that back in the days when the top teams would beat the likes of Liverpool City etc. 

indeed we have seen loads of them in league one over the past few years. 
 

[south yorkshire]

11 minutes ago, overtheborder said:

It's an interesting concept and would be potentially fascinating that anyone could get into SL, without having been promoted into the division below (ignoring the fact that this is what this is anyway).

Two glaring questions for me:

1) Would this lead to more mismatches (a previous poster used Fev vs Skolars as an example)?

2) Does that open the door to a single-season big-spending franchise buying their way into SL in an ultimately unsustainable way, that then leads to them either going bust part way through a Super League campaign as the bubble bursts, or simply getting battered every week as they can't sustain the level of spending that got them there?

For me it's an interesting idea if you've got a lot of roughly even teams in the league.

 

The biggest question I have around the divisions below SL is whether it would be better for the game for some teams to step back, move to smaller grounds (being able to charge less than say 20 quid for a League One match), build a real community and then build up from there. It's not a criticism of the clubs in those divisions, it's just something I've thought about for a while as someone who does enjoy RL at those levels.

question one I have answered already about blow out scores and agree there would be more, but in time these like in super league should get less frequent. 

2 With IMG still operating there would still be grading system in place in lower league. 

With the threat of relegation from the championship to league one being removed this should help clubs gives teams time to develop youth instead of paying too much money to an ageing super league player. I think the league could could only help and develop more players . At moment teams like I said in first post are all probably spending beyond there needs either chasing dream to super league, spending to stay in championship or spending to get into championship and when they get there having to spend sheds more to stay in it.    

[The Blues Ox]

Are that many teams in the championship really spending trying to achieve Super League? I really only see Fev, Toulouse, and Bradford spending a ton of money, anyone else does not seem to have a realistic chance so they probably live more within their means.

Also as a fan of a Championship club I have to ask myself if that sort of system would interest me and to be honest it really wouldnt, I go to most games now but have started picking and choosing a bit more this season as theres really only about 4 or 5 games a season that I think I wake up and really want to go to it and that would be the same in that sort of system. For that reason alone it probably ends up costing teams money as crowds drop and there isn't enough money to cover expenses. I really couldn't see it working and it would be far too many games for the players as well.

[south yorkshire]

24 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Are that many teams in the championship really spending trying to achieve Super League? I really only see Fev, Toulouse, and Bradford spending a ton of money, anyone else does not seem to have a realistic chance so they probably live more within their means.

Also as a fan of a Championship club I have to ask myself if that sort of system would interest me and to be honest it really wouldnt, I go to most games now but have started picking and choosing a bit more this season as theres really only about 4 or 5 games a season that I think I wake up and really want to go to it and that would be the same in that sort of system. For that reason alone it probably ends up costing teams money as crowds drop and there isn't enough money to cover expenses. I really couldn't see it working and it would be far too many games for the players as well.

be interested to know which team you follow. While its true Fev , Bulls and Toulouse are the big spender others have made plenty of signings to try and compete or stand still. Sheffield seem to have splashed some cash this season , York have spent plenty in seasons before. Keighley spent plenty when they came up . Newcastle and London both spent in trying to full time teams .  

[The Phantom Horseman]

To be honest I'd be more in favour of going in the opposite direction, there are too many teams in the Championship at the moment, I'd reduce it from 14 to maybe 10 and increase the size of League One.That would help with one of League 1 's biggest problems at the moment which is insufficient games and thus lack of gate money.

Every year I do a Championship prediction thread on here and most years it's not hard to predict which teams will be in the top eight and which in the bottom six. As Blues Ox says that means that each year there are a lot of fairly unattractive games that are a hard sell because people think they will be a blowout and usually they are right. Leigh's home gates last season weren't especially good for most games even though they had a great team because people knew they were likely to score 50 or 60 each week, my team Fev though not as dominant as Leigh have had a similar issue this season.

The Championship would be even more lopsided if you started putting the likes of Skolars, Cornwall, Midlands etc. Dewsbury and Workington won 4 games between them and conceded over 2000 points combined in the Championship in 2022 but could be back next season and Dewsbury have only lost 1 game all year in League 1, there's too big a gulf between the better teams in the Championship and the lower ones already without bringing in clubs that are struggling even more.

[Ovenden Grunt]

1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

Dual Reg should be scrapped.

[south yorkshire]

2 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

To be honest I'd be more in favour of going in the opposite direction, there are too many teams in the Championship at the moment, I'd reduce it from 14 to maybe 10 and increase the size of League One.That would help with one of League 1 's biggest problems at the moment which is insufficient games and thus lack of gate money.

Every year I do a Championship prediction thread on here and most years it's not hard to predict which teams will be in the top eight and which in the bottom six. As Blues Ox says that means that each year there are a lot of fairly unattractive games that are a hard sell because people think they will be a blowout and usually they are right. Leigh's home gates last season weren't especially good for most games even though they had a great team because people knew they were likely to score 50 or 60 each week, my team Fev though not as dominant as Leigh have had a similar issue this season.

The Championship would be even more lopsided if you started putting the likes of Skolars, Cornwall, Midlands etc. Dewsbury and Workington won 4 games between them and conceded over 2000 points combined in the Championship in 2022 but could be back next season and Dewsbury have only lost 1 game all year in League 1, there's too big a gulf between the better teams in the Championship and the lower ones already without bringing in clubs that are struggling even more.

No teams in Championship are ever going to vote to make it smaller to much self interest that's why they went from 12 to 14 teams. Granted the quality of the league with all in it might not be as good at first but would clubs at top end have to pay so many players top wages to compete? With time to develop there own youth players this would give lower teams a chance to pick up other players on the way down from super ect. 

[south yorkshire]

43 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Are that many teams in the championship really spending trying to achieve Super League? I really only see Fev, Toulouse, and Bradford spending a ton of money, anyone else does not seem to have a realistic chance so they probably live more within their means.

Also as a fan of a Championship club I have to ask myself if that sort of system would interest me and to be honest it really wouldnt, I go to most games now but have started picking and choosing a bit more this season as theres really only about 4 or 5 games a season that I think I wake up and really want to go to it and that would be the same in that sort of system. For that reason alone it probably ends up costing teams money as crowds drop and there isn't enough money to cover expenses. I really couldn't see it working and it would be far too many games for the players as well.

I myself pick and chose the games I go to. I might be more tempted to go to a few more games though if I thought I was not going to see my team play them at home again for another two years. Like wise with away games I would be more tempted to go to more away games. As my Sheffield have been in Championship a long time I get bored of going to Batley , Featherstone  and the like every year where as if its was every two years I would probably go to more. 

[The Phantom Horseman]

10 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

No teams in Championship are ever going to vote to make it smaller to much self interest that's why they went from 12 to 14 teams. Granted the quality of the league with all in it might not be as good at first but would clubs at top end have to pay so many players top wages to compete? With time to develop there own youth players this would give lower teams a chance to pick up other players on the way down from super ect. 

Top-end Championship clubs may not spend as much in the coming years but that's solely because on-field promotion to SL is being removed, if promotion were still there they would spend as much because Fev/Toulouse/Cas/Wakey or whoever is in their would be spending to beat each other, the incorporated League 1 teams would be irrelevant.

Putting all the League 1 clubs in the Championship would be a farce, most of them would be shipping 50-100 points nearly every time they faced a top-end team, the difference really is that huge.

[south yorkshire]

54 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Are that many teams in the championship really spending trying to achieve Super League? I really only see Fev, Toulouse, and Bradford spending a ton of money, anyone else does not seem to have a realistic chance so they probably live more within their means.

Also as a fan of a Championship club I have to ask myself if that sort of system would interest me and to be honest it really wouldnt, I go to most games now but have started picking and choosing a bit more this season as theres really only about 4 or 5 games a season that I think I wake up and really want to go to it and that would be the same in that sort of system. For that reason alone it probably ends up costing teams money as crowds drop and there isn't enough money to cover expenses. I really couldn't see it working and it would be far too many games for the players as well.

Why would it be far to many games ? I already said there was a total of 30 games which included league and play offs plus league cup . Currently championship sides play 27 games plus play offs which equals 30 plus if successful in 1895 cup 2 more games . So would actually be playing a few less.   

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

3 hours ago, south yorkshire said:

Life below super league is so tough for clubs take the championship 14 teams about 8 spending money they probably haven't got to try and get to the promise land while the other six are spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship and avoid the nightmare that is league one. League one traditional are clubs are probably spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one. When they do get out they hit another wall of having to spend more money just to try and avoid going back down to league one. Championship and league one is not working for any team. The answer is simple one league of 24 playing each other once and your nearest neighbours twice .24 game season 12 home 12 away top 8 make playoffs. Yes you still have clubs spending money trying to get into top 8 and super league but not a disaster if you don't make it. Teams would have more time to develop younger players as threat of relegation would be removed. Teams can build slowly. It would I think be more appealing for a tv deal with more games and derbies to chose from. The 1895 cup rebranded as the championship cup still play final at Wembley.8 groups of three with group games doubling up with championship games to reduce fixture list. Top team in each group of three make quarter finals with group games doubling as league games they would be no dead rubbers. So that's 24 league round plus 3 championship play off rounds and 3 championship cup round 30 games. Plus the challenge cup where most teams could expect to play at least two games. 1 st round proper I have 16 amateur teams join the 24 championship teams. The 20 winners would then be joined by the 12 super league sides in round 2 the last 32 . Then straight knock out from there.                

I'm on board with a version of this... but am I the only person who thinks there's a certain irony in what this idea really says? The opportunity to get promoted by spending on wages to get one good season, plus the threat of relegation if out-spent by others, is bad for long-term planning. So the solution here is to lets stop having the latter (which is what merging the two leagues achieves).

Perhaps there's something in the idea of no relegation for finishing last in one season, and clubs getting promoted on a wider basket of factors.... someone should tell IMG quick!

 

[Spidey]

Well its different from 2 x 10

[south yorkshire]

23 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I'm on board with a version of this... but am I the only person who thinks there's a certain irony in what this idea really says? The opportunity to get promoted by spending on wages to get one good season, plus the threat of relegation if out-spent by others, is bad for long-term planning. So the solution here is to lets stop having the latter (which is what merging the two leagues achieves).

Perhaps there's something in the idea of no relegation for finishing last in one season, and clubs getting promoted on a wider basket of factors.... someone should tell IMG quick!

 

I am in favour with IMG  grading. If my team sheffield won the championship i know they wouldn't be promoted. Which is fair our stadium is miles off super league requirement as are many in the lower leagues. What i would suggest that if the team who wins the championship doesn't score a grade similar to the team who finishes bottom of super then that team should not be promoted. Instead that team so be given some kind of cash reward or grant to spend money on up grading facilities in order to help them improve and advance there prospects for next time.    

Edited August 1, 2023 by south yorkshire

[The Phantom Horseman]

23 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I'm on board with a version of this... but am I the only person who thinks there's a certain irony in what this idea really says? The opportunity to get promoted by spending on wages to get one good season, plus the threat of relegation if out-spent by others, is bad for long-term planning. So the solution here is to lets stop having the latter (which is what merging the two leagues achieves).

Perhaps there's something in the idea of no relegation for finishing last in one season, and clubs getting promoted on a wider basket of factors.... someone should tell IMG quick!

 

If you're in favour of incorporating 10 League 1 teams into the Championship, would you be in favour of incorporating 10 Championship teams into SL for the same reasons?

[south yorkshire]

4 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

If you're in favour of incorporating 10 League 1 teams into the Championship, would you be in favour of incorporating 10 Championship teams into SL for the same reasons?

I would personally love to see two leagues of 18 yes. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by south yorkshire