Fri 4th Aug: SL: Warrington Wolves v Catalans Dragons KO 20:00 (Sky)

[Harry Stottle]

Why did Vaughan and Williams not play last night they were very conspicuous by their seeming absence.

Seriously though, all things that were good about Wire early season was the  effect that these two had on the games they played, last night they looked mere shadows of themselves, everyone was lauding George by bringing his WC form to the regular season but would/should he be selected on present showings, and Paul was running amok at will and was also the enforcer, not so much it seems these days.

Most of the teams up there this season it seems has a couple of guys who when they play/perform well are useually better than there opposition, Welsby/Walmersley at Saints, Field/French at Wigan, Tomkins/Pearce at Catalan and yes Asiata/Lam at Leigh, it was Williams/Vaughan at Wire but now these two are not having the impact required and so neither is the team.

Surely there should be a good tune eminating from Vaughan Williams, for the Warrington faithful, sorry couldn't resist that one.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why did Vaughan and Williams not play last night they were very conspicuous by their seeming absence.

Seriously though, all things that were good about Wire early season was the  effect that these two had on the games they played, last night they looked mere shadows of themselves, everyone was lauding George by bringing his WC form to the regular season but would/should he be selected on present showings, and Paul was running amok at will and was also the enforcer, not so much it seems these days.

Most of the teams up there this season it seems has a couple of guys who when they play/perform well are useually better than there opposition, Welsby/Walmersley at Saints, Field/French at Wigan, Tomkins/Pearce at Catalan and yes Asiata/Lam at Leigh, it was Williams/Vaughan at Wire but now these two are not having the impact required and so neither is the team.

Surely there should be a good tune eminating from Vaughan Williams, for the Warrington faithful, sorry couldn't resist that one.

 

Are you talking about George Williams?

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Are you talking about George Williams?

Who else?

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why did Vaughan and Williams not play last night they were very conspicuous by their seeming absence.

Seriously though, all things that were good about Wire early season was the  effect that these two had on the games they played, last night they looked mere shadows of themselves, everyone was lauding George by bringing his WC form to the regular season but would/should he be selected on present showings, and Paul was running amok at will and was also the enforcer, not so much it seems these days.

Most of the teams up there this season it seems has a couple of guys who when they play/perform well are useually better than there opposition, Welsby/Walmersley at Saints, Field/French at Wigan, Tomkins/Pearce at Catalan and yes Asiata/Lam at Leigh, it was Williams/Vaughan at Wire but now these two are not having the impact required and so neither is the team.

Surely there should be a good tune eminating from Vaughan Williams, for the Warrington faithful, sorry couldn't resist that one.

 

Williams has been very good all year, pretty much the difference between us winning and losing many games, however has just returned from injury to a team that is playing terribly. 

Vaughan has made more metres than any other forward in SL. He was never the enforcer. 

There are far bigger weaknesses in the team than focusing on two of the best. 

I do think the biggest issue is that they don't look like a 'team' right now. I think an element of that is a poor back line, Thewlis and Wrench are not really SL wingers based on how the game is played nowadays, our centres are dire, Dufty terrible last night. 

But the confidence is the major difference. Players are not running off every player, they aren't trying those things that came off in the first few months, they aren't backing themselves. There is some real work to be done to resolve that. Clarke made the point last night that even at times when winning it didn't look a happy camp, and I've made that point over and over. I genuinely think Powell has damaged this team beyond that losing streak. 

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who else?

I just needed to check because of the rest of your post.

George Williams ran for 116 metres (the most for Warrington) made 17 tackles and assisted one of Warrington's two tries.

Now, there is a very real argument to say that Williams is not providing the organisation that Warrington need (ever since he went to the Raiders, people have wanted him to be an organising half when that isn't his game).

What he did do though was work hard, including carrying the ball away from his own line when the back 3 of Wire weren't. 

But to ask if he was playing means that you didn't recognise his contribution or are pretending you didn't.  Neither is a great outcome. 

[Dave T]

I'm not sure what happened with Vaughan, but he only made 35m and 6 carries, which is around 100m below his average. Did he return for a 2nd stint? 

[Harry Stottle]

@Dave Tand @Dunbar, we all watched Wire in the early part of the season and without doubt William's and Vaughan were the stand outs and catalysts of everything that was good about Warrington and the success the team was having, they were the influencers that got the rest of their team mates playing and gave them the confidence that is now missing Dave, and Dunbar it is your want to qoute stats and assume everything is OK if an individual returns acceptable one's, but I have watched this game (and coached it, not now) for a very long time, long before we had stats and you instinctively knew if a player was having a good game personally and having an influence on the rest of his team mates, I didn't need to know how many meters, passes or tackles Welsby made for Saints v Leeds last week to recognise he was the difference  between the teams and the reason why Saints won the game.

You both obviously believe I am wrong, that is your prerogative, but in my opinion both those players being available and playing has they did early season Wire would not have lost as many games as they have, they would have given their team mates the platform that has been missing recently.

[Harry Stottle]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure what happened with Vaughan, but he only made 35m and 6 carries, which is around 100m below his average. Did he return for a 2nd stint? 

Thank you Dave, albeit you are quoting the stats, you are in effect agreeing with what I am saying, Paul Vaughan is not doing what he has done previously and therefore not pulling his team mates along with him.

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

@Dave Tand @Dunbar, we all watched Wire in the early part of the season and without doubt William's and Vaughan were the stand outs and catalysts of everything that was good about Warrington and the success the team was having, they were the influencers that got the rest of their team mates playing and gave them the confidence that is now missing Dave, and Dunbar it is your want to qoute stats and assume everything is OK if an individual returns acceptable one's, but I have watched this game (and coached it, not now) for a very long time, long before we had stats and you instinctively knew if a player was having a good game personally and having an influence on the rest of his team mates, I didn't need to know how many meters, passes or tackles Welsby made for Saints v Leeds last week to recognise he was the difference  between the teams and the reason why Saints won the game.

You both obviously believe I am wrong, that is your prerogative, but in my opinion both those players being available and playing has they did early season Wire would not have lost as many games as they have, they would have given their team mates the platform that has been missing recently.

Well, you have certainly misread my post.  Or not bothered to read it properly more likely... which part of "Now, there is a very real argument to say that Williams is not providing the organisation that Warrington need" is saying everything is OK?

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thank you Dave, albeit you are quoting the stats, you are in effect agreeing with what I am saying, Paul Vaughan is not doing what he has done previously and therefore not pulling his team mates along with him.

Well no, you ignore the fact that every other week he makes more metres than any other forward in the league. 

I'm not sure he had a 2nd stint last night. 

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Well, you have certainly misread my post.  Or not bothered to read it properly more likely... which part of "Now, there is a very real argument to say that Williams is not providing the organisation that Warrington need" is saying everything is OK?

Apologies, I got sidetracked with your previous paragraph and what seems to be your compulsory use of Stats to highlight that William's seemingly had a good game.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Apologies, I got sidetracked with your previous paragraph and what seems to be your compulsory use of Stats to highlight that William's seemingly had a good game.

No worries.

Stats are in fact useful to highlight insufficiencies in a performance as well.

When one of your halves and key playmaker is carrying the ball for the most metres, including having to put his hand up for carries off his own line, then something is wrong with the work ethic of the rest of the team.

Williams tried hard last night but he was doing things he shouldn't have to do (the hard carries) and wasn't doing what was wanted of him (game management).  Now, whether that is down to him or the rest of the team is the question.  Probably a bit of both.

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I just needed to check because of the rest of your post.

George Williams ran for 116 metres (the most for Warrington) made 17 tackles and assisted one of Warrington's two tries.

Now, there is a very real argument to say that Williams is not providing the organisation that Warrington need (ever since he went to the Raiders, people have wanted him to be an organising half when that isn't his game).

What he did do though was work hard, including carrying the ball away from his own line when the back 3 of Wire weren't. 

But to ask if he was playing means that you didn't recognise his contribution or are pretending you didn't.  Neither is a great outcome. 

Williams was certainly too be seen, unfortunately most of the time he was being being tackled after running sideways one way, then coming back the other way back from whence he came,  then being heavily tackled...  not saying that just down to him as I assume he didn't have anyone to pass too. Never-the-less he was receiving the ball with no space to run or time to execute...

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, redjonn said:

Williams was certainly too be seen, unfortunately most of the time he was being being tackled after running sideways one way, then coming back the other way back from whence he came,  then being heavily tackled...  not saying that just down to him as I assume he didn't have anyone to pass too. Never-the-less he was receiving the ball with no space to run or time to execute...

Whilst that is certainly a problem with Williams and has been throughout his career, this is where stats are useful, as they point out that he made the 3rd highest number of metres on the field last night. 

[GeordieSaint]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Thewlis and Wrench are not really SL wingers based on how the game is played nowadays, our centres are dire. 

If you don’t want Wrench, I’d be quite happy to see him at Saints. Would make a good centre given the chance…

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

If you don’t want Wrench, I’d be quite happy to see him at Saints. Would make a good centre given the chance…

I think Wrench has a lot of potential and hopefully he'll become a top centre with King on the other side. But what he aint is a SL winger that's gonna make the hard yards, the right defensive calls etc. 

[Barry Badrinath]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think Wrench has a lot of potential and hopefully he'll become a top centre with King on the other side. But what he aint is a SL winger that's gonna make the hard yards, the right defensive calls etc. 

He's not even a centre, he's a back rower who's learning his trade at centre,  who's been stuck on the wing  learning that as well.

[ELBOWSEYE]

4 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

He's not even a centre, he's a back rower who's learning his trade at centre,  who's been stuck on the wing  learning that as well.

Is it a general problem or a game one, the size of you forwards looks smaller and smaller, I think the last decent size forward was Currie who came out of the junior ranks every one I see now or recently given games in the first team look really small. Are players like big Alex)saints) or Chris hill the exception because down under most backlines are bigger than SL packs. I am in my 60s and played at 6feet 2 and between 16 to 18 stone (and we were only just playing around with weights. And I was the norm in amateur rugby , I have watched a couple of NCL games and the average size is a lot smaller and society says we are getting bigger. So what's happening to the larger athletes.

[meast]

On 02/08/2023 at 23:01, meast said:

Warrington to win comfortably without miserable Daryl in his box

Ah well, it's still their year again  

[meast]

On 04/08/2023 at 20:41, DavidM said:

The crowd are revolting 

Was it at Hull KR?  

Edited August 7, 2023 by meast

[meast]

On 04/08/2023 at 20:52, Dave T said:

I find confidence in sport fascinating. Some players for Wire look shells of themselves. 

I thought the same about some of our players this season, thankfully, for now, they appear to have turned things round and now like the players of old again.