Challenge cup attendance

[Eddie]

I’m sure some people will Be keen to say why, but this doesn’t look like there are many tickets left. 
https://www.eticketing.co.uk/rugbyleague/EDP/Event/Index/118

[JonM]

13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’m sure some people will Be keen to say why, but this doesn’t look like there are many tickets left. 
https://www.eticketing.co.uk/rugbyleague/EDP/Event/Index/118

South stand upper tier not being opened perhaps? Wembley's pricing does go down if some parts of the ground are not used, so that would be a sensible move if a ~60K crowd is expected.

[Eddie]

51 minutes ago, JonM said:

South stand upper tier not being opened perhaps? Wembley's pricing does go down if some parts of the ground are not used, so that would be a sensible move if a ~60K crowd is expected.

Yes but that upper tier doesn’t hold more than 25,000. The rest of the ground is very well sold, less than 5k left  I reckon, meaning a gate of significantly > 60k. 

[JonM]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yes but that upper tier doesn’t hold more than 25,000. The rest of the ground is very well sold, less than 5k left  I reckon, meaning a gate of significantly > 60k. 

The upper tier holds 39K IIRC. I wouldn't assume that unavailable seats are automatically sold - they may be allocated to clubs to sell, for example. Anyway, it seems like there'll be quite a lot more of us in the club wembley tier than in previous years.

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, JonM said:

The upper tier holds 39K IIRC. I wouldn't assume that unavailable seats are automatically sold - they may be allocated to clubs to sell, for example. Anyway, it seems like there'll be quite a lot more of us in the club wembley tier than in previous years.

Ok so that’s 20,000 not open leaving 70,000 tickets for sale. And yes I’ve just looked on Leigh’s website and there are loads left, so maybe you’re right. 

[Ragingbull]

5 hours ago, JonM said:

The upper tier holds 39K IIRC. I wouldn't assume that unavailable seats are automatically sold - they may be allocated to clubs to sell, for example. Anyway, it seems like there'll be quite a lot more of us in the club wembley tier than in previous years.

Correct. 

Upper is approx 39k

Middle is approx 17k

Lower bowl approx 34k

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

14 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Yeah, heard that one many, many times and it is a good line. But the truth is that 60k is not a good attendance.

As said, everything that we are told is needed has happened: multiple games so value, new finalists, decent lead in time, reasonable pricing …

60k this year would be an excellent result 

[gingerjon]

5 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

60k this year would be an excellent result 

People keep saying this as if it wouldn't be among the lowest Challenge Cup Final attendances of all time, on a day when we've got six teams selling tickets, and when other sports seem to be seeing decent to substantial growth in their own attendances.

Why is it great for RL to be falling behind and accepting low crowds?

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

People keep saying this as if it wouldn't be among the lowest Challenge Cup Final attendances of all time, on a day when we've got six teams selling tickets, and when other sports seem to be seeing decent to substantial growth in their own attendances.

Why is it great for RL to be falling behind and accepting low crowds?

It wasn't 'excellent' when Saints v Wire got 62k in the last proper Wembley final, and it won't be good with the same this Sat. 

One of the lowest Wembley crowds for two English teams for decades cannot be described as excellent. 

Of course, there may be context etc. but it is in no way excellent. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Dave T

[Eddie]

18 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

People keep saying this as if it wouldn't be among the lowest Challenge Cup Final attendances of all time, on a day when we've got six teams selling tickets, and when other sports seem to be seeing decent to substantial growth in their own attendances.

Why is it great for RL to be falling behind and accepting low crowds?

If more clubs actually announced attendances we’d be able to say if crowds are up, down or level in RL this season. However some are certainly up. 
 

Also I don’t think it’s fair to say six teams selling tickets will affect the crowd much. I doubt many Saints or Leeds fans will be going specifically for the ladies final. Also Batley and Fax by their very nature won’t take anywhere near as many fans as say Bradford v Widnes would, realistically what will they add to the gate? 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Eddie said:

[1] If more clubs actually announced attendances we’d be able to say if crowds are up, down or level in RL this season. However some are certainly up. 
 

Also I don’t think it’s fair to say six teams selling tickets will affect the crowd much. I doubt many Saints or Leeds fans will be going specifically for the ladies final. Also Batley and Fax by their very nature won’t take anywhere near as many fans as say Bradford v Widnes would, realistically what will they add to the gate? 

[1] Some are up and that is a good thing. Being positive, I'd say most are in a position where you can see how there is the potential for growth so it's not like they're low and you can't see them ever rising. I also think it's fair to say that, across the sport, every club could add more to their gate so we are lower than we should be.

[2] Linked to @Dave T's point above. There has been some rewriting of history going on to suggest that the reaction to previous c.60k crowds or the inclusion of CW was not met with a strong negative reaction as if that isn't the exact reason that the final day has become a triple header finals day.

Overall, I'm just not quite sure when the idea that nowhere near good enough became 'excellent'.

[Expatknight]

16 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

[1] Some are up and that is a good thing. Being positive, I'd say most are in a position where you can see how there is the potential for growth so it's not like they're low and you can't see them ever rising. I also think it's fair to say that, across the sport, every club could add more to their gate so we are lower than we should be.

[2] Linked to @Dave T's point above. There has been some rewriting of history going on to suggest that the reaction to previous c.60k crowds or the inclusion of CW was not met with a strong negative reaction as if that isn't the exact reason that the final day has become a triple header finals day.

Overall, I'm just not quite sure when the idea that nowhere near good enough became 'excellent'.

This is exactly why something drastic has to be done to improve the marketing of Rugby League, there is still a perception that it is a northern sport played by working class blokes in run down grounds, when in fact it is probably one of the best spectator sports played by some extremely talented athletes in many parts of this country and abroad. For far too long the RFL have sat on their hands, looked after their own interests and held this sport back, a lot of the so called bigger clubs have been equally guilty of this. I only hope IMG can bring about the change that is needed and show the population what they are missing.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

[1] Some are up and that is a good thing. Being positive, I'd say most are in a position where you can see how there is the potential for growth so it's not like they're low and you can't see them ever rising. I also think it's fair to say that, across the sport, every club could add more to their gate so we are lower than we should be.

[2] Linked to @Dave T's point above. There has been some rewriting of history going on to suggest that the reaction to previous c.60k crowds or the inclusion of CW was not met with a strong negative reaction as if that isn't the exact reason that the final day has become a triple header finals day.

Overall, I'm just not quite sure when the idea that nowhere near good enough became 'excellent'.

 

47 minutes ago, Expatknight said:

This is exactly why something drastic has to be done to improve the marketing of Rugby League, there is still a perception that it is a northern sport played by working class blokes in run down grounds, when in fact it is probably one of the best spectator sports played by some extremely talented athletes in many parts of this country and abroad. For far too long the RFL have sat on their hands, looked after their own interests and held this sport back, a lot of the so called bigger clubs have been equally guilty of this. I only hope IMG can bring about the change that is needed and show the population what they are missing.

A big problem imo is that the Cup Final at Wembley has lost a lot of its identity and place in the game, but also the wider sporting landscape. 

I love the cup, so I'd be doing everything to revitalise it, but I do think the final needs repositioning. And that doesbt mean the date (although getting the scheduling right is important). It is still parading as exactly the same event as it was back in the 70s, 80s, 90s etc. and times have changed.

Whilst I think graveyard johnny overstates the point, the market has changed, it was the big day out for many Northerners, but things have changed, the competition has increased massively, including within RL in the form of the GF, Magic and France trips. 

I know I often bang on about it, but it needs to be an event, and I don't think adding even more Northern teams was the way to do that. I don't think just marketing in London is the answer, why on earth would they be passionate about spending money on a Northern oddity? Maybe if it was a hell of an event though they would be. I stead we'll unfold some sheets on the pitch, sing abide with me and crack on. All very nice, but not appealing to the masses. 

RL events really have lost their way even from two or three decades ago. I remember when we used to make far more effort at our events. 

When I watch The Hundred, whilst I don't like everything they do, they are staging colourful fun events, I think we are far too po-faced tbh. 

Where are the live bands, the pyro, the use of technology, the crowd engagement etc? This is what everyone else is doing to stay contemporary. We generally look cheap and dated. 

[saintspete83]

youtu.be/m_t9h-veTJM

 

The last well attendance at a cup final (84,241 and it looks like it) and it even included a French team and no lies about club Wembley to inflate the attendance.

Granted that it was the return to Wembley and will have definitely played a significant part in selling the event.

It was also the year magic was introduced  and the year Nigel wood become RFL chief executive. 

Personally I love the Cup and would rather travel to see a Leigh v Hull kr Cup final then watch my own side play a league game at magic. 

I'd love to see the Cup final planned as a genuine event and see 6 figure amounts invested into selling the game instead of paying off executives that have overseen its decline. 

 

[saintspete83]

https://youtu.be/m_t9h-veTJM

Link to my comment above. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

People keep saying this as if it wouldn't be among the lowest Challenge Cup Final attendances of all time, on a day when we've got six teams selling tickets, and when other sports seem to be seeing decent to substantial growth in their own attendances.

Why is it great for RL to be falling behind and accepting low crowds?

Because it would be an upward trend ... That is all that matters

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Because it would be an upward trend ... That is all that matters

Indeed, people need to stop comparing with 10+ years ago, things are different now. 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

things are different now. 

In what way?

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Indeed, people need to stop comparing with 10+ years ago, things are different now. 

The problem is Eddie, other competitors aren't seal clapping being smaller than 10 years ago and just putting it down to things being different. 

[Eddie]

42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

In what way?

Change of habits, recession, terrible marketing from the RFL. 

[Eddie]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is Eddie, other competitors aren't seal clapping being smaller than 10 years ago and just putting it down to things being different. 

Oh yes I know, I’m happy with comparisons against other sports (except football), I just don’t particularly value comparisons with 10+ years ago as things have changed since then. If the gate can increase year on year from now by 1-2k a season that’s a success imho, even if they are lower than 10 years ago. 

[audois]

Remembered watching on BBC 1958 Wigan-Workington Town with 66,109 on Wembley

[Expatknight]

20 minutes ago, audois said:

Remembered watching on BBC 1958 Wigan-Workington Town with 66,109 on Wembley

But back then there was not a lot else for people to do in their leisure time, these days people demand more and quite rightly so, we have to compete with hundreds of TV channels, a plethora of different sports , shopping malls etc all things that weren’t around back then. The whole experience has to be worthy of people’s time and money, it has to be something special to make it stand out and attractive. We are so far behind the times it isn’t funny.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Because it would be an upward trend ... That is all that matters

It'll be >20% bigger than last year's crowd. It will be on average for the entire decade before that. 

If you're only ever going to be satisfied with some sort of Hail Mary return to attendances of well over a decade ago, then I'm afraid you're never going to be satisfied. The way you create transformative change and success is to celebrate small wins, knuckle down and make further small improvements, and aim higher again. 

The way you create a culture of failure is to expect miracles, get disappointed when they don't arrive, and then either give up or start trying daft new things in desperation. That is why I'm in here having this argument right now. Not because I think 60,000 is great, but because it is better. There are people saying "scrap the cup", or "move the final to a smaller ground", or "play it up north"... all in response to a false sense of there being no hope. That's the language of quitters. 

Well there is hope, we need to keep perspective, and start doing the hard yards to get incrementally better results. 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It'll be >20% bigger than last year's crowd. It will be on average for the entire decade before that. 

If you're only ever going to be satisfied with some sort of Hail Mary return to attendances of well over a decade ago, then I'm afraid you're never going to be satisfied. The way you create transformative change and success is to celebrate small wins, knuckle down and make further small improvements, and aim higher again. 

The way you create a culture of failure is to expect miracles, get disappointed when they don't arrive, and then either give up or start trying daft new things in desperation. That is why I'm in here having this argument right now. Not because I think 60,000 is great, but because it is better. There are people saying "scrap the cup", or "move the final to a smaller ground", or "play it up north"... all in response to a false sense of there being no hope. That's the language of quitters. 

Well there is hope, we need to keep perspective, and start doing the hard yards to get incrementally better results. 

There is though, a few levels below 'excellent' which was the challenge. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Dave T