Fri 22nd Sept: SL: Leigh Leopards v Wigan Warriors KO 20:00 (Sky)

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, LeeF said:

They are match officials who share the duties. That’s what they are called. They referee, touch judges, in goal, 4th official, reserve and video referee hence the job title 

What I am saying Lee is that I am under the impression that the NRL Bunker have people who's sole function is to be employed in the Bunker who have no other function as you describe.

Happy to be corrected.

Edited September 24 by Harry Stottle

[LeeF]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

What I am saying Lee is that I am under the impression that the NRL Bunker have people who's sole function is to be employed in the Bunker who have no other function as you describe.

I read your early posts as they were going to have a specialist team over here and that’s not what is likely to happen here, according to general consensus etc, due to the cost involved at least at first as the current VR “specialists” as all active match officials. 

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, LeeF said:

I read your early posts as they were going to have a specialist team over here and that’s not what is likely to happen here, according to general consensus etc, due to the cost involved at least at first as the current VR “specialists” as all active match officials. 

OK I didn't know that had been decided, albeit as I said and I will maintain that utilising the same people in the VR should provide more consistency in adjudicating.

[LeeF]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK I didn't know that had been decided, albeit as I said and I will maintain that utilising the same people in the VR should provide more consistency in adjudicating.

Not definitely decided as it is RL and there is always the night before to change things but there isn’t any money to recruit additional people  

The existing VRs are all from the current full time match officials group and are very consistent especially if you watch as a neutral. The criteria is well laid out etc. and protocols followed  

Other than having to find another 4 over the weekend and somewhere to park the bus/ truck (or Chris Kendall’s front room ) to watch the games nothing much will change although the demands on the Match Officials will increase. 

[Leyther_Matt]

The key is to create a natural pathway for referees who reach the relative retirement age rather than hacking them off to the extent that they jack it in way before their time

[Padge]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I don't know if that has been decided, eager to learn though.

What about my suggestion for using technology for forward passes? I obviously don't know if it can be done or not, but I do know we need something, there was a time when those in attendance would in unison shout forward and they were in the main correct and the ref would concur, but in those days the ball had to be 'obviously'  thrown backwards, today the 'line or flat pass' opens that up to many more errors from the officials.

Forward passes have too many variables as you view them, first mistake people make is comparing the travel to lines on the pitch, it has nothing to do with lines on the pitch. Second is that a ball thrown from the floor rising towards a player can look forward though it isn't. Another one is that if someone passes the ball not forward but the wind blows it forward it is not a forward pass. A lobbed high pass has similar problems to the low upward pass, the list goes on.

 

[GUBRATS]

On the dissallowed try , Mr Moore requested confirmation of an obstruction on the ' outside ' shoulder , Mr Griffith's confirmed the run by the Leigh player ( and the subsequent very minor contact ) was on the inside shoulder of Mr French 

He should have given the try , it really is that simple 

Hopefully somebody will get down to Robin Park this week to explain the obstruction laws to Mr Peet , as he obviously doesn't understand them , given his post match interview 

IMO it has cost us a GF appearance 

[ELBOWSEYE]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

On the dissallowed try , Mr Moore requested confirmation of an obstruction on the ' outside ' shoulder , Mr Griffith's confirmed the run by the Leigh player ( and the subsequent very minor contact ) was on the inside shoulder of Mr French 

He should have given the try , it really is that simple 

Hopefully somebody will get down to Robin Park this week to explain the obstruction laws to Mr Peet , as he obviously doesn't understand them , given his post match interview 

IMO it has cost us a GF appearance 

It cost Catalan a league leaders shield and £100k, 

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

On the dissallowed try , Mr Moore requested confirmation of an obstruction on the ' outside ' shoulder , Mr Griffith's confirmed the run by the Leigh player ( and the subsequent very minor contact ) was on the inside shoulder of Mr French 

He should have given the try , it really is that simple 

Hopefully somebody will get down to Robin Park this week to explain the obstruction laws to Mr Peet , as he obviously doesn't understand them , given his post match interview 

IMO it has cost us a GF appearance 

I've just watched this again as I couldn't remember the exact detail, and you are absolutely right. He said no try, and "looking at contact on the outside shoulder". 

The VR then starts to claim the contact is 'flush' which I assume means head on, but that simply isn't true. It was an inside shoulder contact. 

I think the problem is that the VR didn't look at the whole play. French wasn't impeding and actually slid across well. The Wigan Centre actually made the wrong call and was stood up. 

[phiggins]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've just watched this again as I couldn't remember the exact detail, and you are absolutely right. He said no try, and "looking at contact on the outside shoulder". 

The VR then starts to claim the contact is 'flush' which I assume means head on, but that simply isn't true. It was an inside shoulder contact. 

I think the problem is that the VR didn't look at the whole play. French wasn't impeding and actually slid across well. The Wigan Centre actually made the wrong call and was stood up. 

It really was a poor call. You'd hope that the referees have the necessary conversations / coaching after the games to see what might have been done differently, just like players do, and how the system might make their lives easier. The on field ref has to make a call between 4 decisions; disallow the try, video ref as no try, video ref as try, award the try. Trying to determine where their level of confidence is on that scale cannot be easy. You'd imagine that in general play, if they're not sure an offence is committed then they'd play on, so there must be a fine line between disallowing a try and an no try going to the VR.

Once it's gone up to the VR, there doesn't seem to be much conversation about what that level of confidence is, nor does the VR appear to address the direct question asked, of whether there's contact with the outside shoulder. But he seems in a state of paralysis of not being able to make a decision. The same thing happened at the end of the Challenge Cup final, this despite there only being one call he could make on that occaision. Feels like a case of inexperienced referees needing help.

Finally, as soon as the ball is touched down, French runs to the ref pointing to his right shoulder. This is an outright lie. Only the referee will know how much he was influenced by the various wigan players approaching him when the 'try' was scored. But we don't want to go down the football route of players surrounding the referee like that.

For all that, I'm not going along with the idea that this decision alone cost us 4th, or Catalans 5th. We got thrashed at HKR, which got them within range of our points difference. Catalans got thrashed against Wigan, which did for their chances of having a better points difference. Those games would have had more impact on final position imo.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

It really was a poor call. You'd hope that the referees have the necessary conversations / coaching after the games to see what might have been done differently, just like players do, and how the system might make their lives easier. The on field ref has to make a call between 4 decisions; disallow the try, video ref as no try, video ref as try, award the try. Trying to determine where their level of confidence is on that scale cannot be easy. You'd imagine that in general play, if they're not sure an offence is committed then they'd play on, so there must be a fine line between disallowing a try and an no try going to the VR.

Once it's gone up to the VR, there doesn't seem to be much conversation about what that level of confidence is, nor does the VR appear to address the direct question asked, of whether there's contact with the outside shoulder. But he seems in a state of paralysis of not being able to make a decision. The same thing happened at the end of the Challenge Cup final, this despite there only being one call he could make on that occaision. Feels like a case of inexperienced referees needing help.

Finally, as soon as the ball is touched down, French runs to the ref pointing to his right shoulder. This is an outright lie. Only the referee will know how much he was influenced by the various wigan players approaching him when the 'try' was scored. But we don't want to go down the football route of players surrounding the referee like that.

For all that, I'm not going along with the idea that this decision alone cost us 4th, or Catalans 5th. We got thrashed at HKR, which got them within range of our points difference. Catalans got thrashed against Wigan, which did for their chances of having a better points difference. Those games would have had more impact on final position imo.

We can go back through all 26 previous matches to find things that happened which would have affected the final finishing positions , but the final game is different , before the game I felt and spoke that we beat Wigan and we IMO make the final , very confident of beat HKR at home and Catalans away ( 2 very close games at theirs this year ) 

However going into a bearpit on Friday at Hull and then having to back up away at Wigan will IMO be too much , I I don't expect us to win this Friday , but I'll still be there , just going to get my ticket now 

[Exiled Wiganer]

50 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

We can go back through all 26 previous matches to find things that happened which would have affected the final finishing positions , but the final game is different , before the game I felt and spoke that we beat Wigan and we IMO make the final , very confident of beat HKR at home and Catalans away ( 2 very close games at theirs this year ) 

However going into a bearpit on Friday at Hull and then having to back up away at Wigan will IMO be too much , I I don't expect us to win this Friday , but I'll still be there , just going to get my ticket now 

I had no idea that you had perfected your predict the future machine. Congratulations.  

Is there any way we can crowd fund some counselling for you? 

Edited September 25 by Exiled Wiganer

[Exiled Wiganer]

3 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

It cost Catalan a league leaders shield and £100k, 

And Saints would have finished second, and Wigan’s new owner would have realised he had been sold a pup, and closed the gates…

Did anyone actually watch the last 20 minutes? If so, if the scores had been tied, who was in a position to get a drop goal? Or, indeed, had there been more at stake, who was going to score the deciding try. 

[Dave T]

55 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

We can go back through all 26 previous matches to find things that happened which would have affected the final finishing positions , but the final game is different , before the game I felt and spoke that we beat Wigan and we IMO make the final , very confident of beat HKR at home and Catalans away ( 2 very close games at theirs this year ) 

However going into a bearpit on Friday at Hull and then having to back up away at Wigan will IMO be too much , I I don't expect us to win this Friday , but I'll still be there , just going to get my ticket now 

I also don't buy that we shouldn't discuss these decisions. It's a key event in the game. I'm not sure why people want to try and remove the scrutiny and emotion from every element of RL. It's all part of the fun. 

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

And Saints would have finished second, and Wigan’s new owner would have realised he had been sold a pup, and closed the gates…

Did anyone actually watch the last 20 minutes? If so, if the scores had been tied, who was in a position to get a drop goal? Or, indeed, had there been more at stake, who was going to score the deciding try. 

Was what it you were saying about predicting the future ? 

[Dunbar]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I've just watched this again as I couldn't remember the exact detail, and you are absolutely right. He said no try, and "looking at contact on the outside shoulder". 

The VR then starts to claim the contact is 'flush' which I assume means head on, but that simply isn't true. It was an inside shoulder contact. 

I think the problem is that the VR didn't look at the whole play. French wasn't impeding and actually slid across well. The Wigan Centre actually made the wrong call and was stood up. 

I have just been to look at it again and I think we may have all been thrown a red herring.

The on field ref says to look at contact with the outside shoulder and then everyone looks at the French contact.

But there is an earlier lead runner from Leigh in the play who makes some contact with Ellis on his outside shoulder.  The ref is also clearly looking at it.

I suspect that is the one he wanted to the VR to look at and he focused on the French one by mistake. 

Not saying there was enough in the lead runner to chalk it off but it was contact on the outside shoulder and more contact than on French to be sure.

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I have just been to look at it again and I think we may have all been thrown a red herring.

The on field ref says to look at contact with the outside shoulder and then everyone looks at the French contact.

But there is an earlier lead runner from Leigh in the play who makes some contact with Ellis on his outside shoulder.  The ref is also clearly looking at it.

I suspect that is the one he wanted to the VR to look at and he focused on the French one by mistake. 

Not saying there was enough in the lead runner to chalk it off but it was contact on the outside shoulder and more contact than on French to be sure.

Nah , no chance , the VR says " it's ok to that point " , he refused the try due to the contact on French , which was inside shoulder and so minimal as to have no impact on wether the try was scored 

As I put Matty Peet needs to learn the obstruction rules , he had 2 players run through the same gap the first one impeding a defender moving across into the gap 

About as clear cut as you get 

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Nah , no chance , the VR says " it's ok to that point " , he refused the try due to the contact on French , which was inside shoulder and so minimal as to have no impact on wether the try was scored 

As I put Matty Peet needs to learn the obstruction rules , he had 2 players run through the same gap the first one impeding a defender moving across into the gap 

About as clear cut as you get 

You seem to have misunderstood my post.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You seem to have misunderstood my post.

Not at all , the play was long gone by the time Nakubuwai ' contacted ' Ellis , it had no bearing on anything , Moore pointed directly in front of himself , not over to the left , he was reacting to French intimating he'd been ' hit ' on his right shoulder 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

We can go back through all 26 previous matches to find things that happened which would have affected the final finishing positions , but the final game is different , before the game I felt and spoke that we beat Wigan and we IMO make the final , very confident of beat HKR at home and Catalans away ( 2 very close games at theirs this year ) 

However going into a bearpit on Friday at Hull and then having to back up away at Wigan will IMO be too much , I I don't expect us to win this Friday , but I'll still be there , just going to get my ticket now 

Yes, beating Wigan would've made the route to the final a better one (though not sure a trip to France would be ideal), but to be honest, I think we would've struggled regardless. It seems a rarity for us to score more than two in a game, and how we followed up the Saints game against Wakey is a concern. But, we have massively overachieved, and won the one trophy we could realistically win with the squad we have.

We'll never know what would've happened had the try been given. Would it have been converted, or how Wigan would've reacted. So I don't like to call it out as 'the' thing that cost us. But it is still a bad bad call, which raises questions of the protocols and how the referees landed on the call. I would hope that the referees are reflecting on that, and any decisions they may wish they could have again, and how to improve their game. Just as players should be doing.

The video ref protocols definitely need to be reviewed to make sure they are actually helping referees, before we have it for every game.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Was what it you were saying about predicting the future ? 

I know you are really deeply disturbed by this, and so will tread carefully. I did nothing of the sort. I asked whether anyone watched the last 20 minutes, as in that time Leigh failed to get out of their own half. If I had your sliding windows machine I would simply put a link up to what happened next and leave it at that.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I know you are really deeply disturbed by this, and so will tread carefully. I did nothing of the sort. I asked whether anyone watched the last 20 minutes, as in that time Leigh failed to get out of their own half. If I had your sliding windows machine I would simply put a link up to what happened next and leave it at that.

As my dad once said to me from his football playing days " if I kick off to the left , we might win , if I kick off to the right we might lose , or visa versa " everything that happens alters everything that comes after it , me posting on this thread now will alter my life , as reading it will alter yours 

If that try is given the whole remaining game changes , given Reynolds kicking form we'd have probably taken the lead , altering everything that Wigan do afterwards , they might have gone on and scored 3 more trys , or they might have ' bombed ' chances trying too hard , the same applies to Leigh 

[ELBOWSEYE]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

And Saints would have finished second, and Wigan’s new owner would have realised he had been sold a pup, and closed the gates…

Did anyone actually watch the last 20 minutes? If so, if the scores had been tied, who was in a position to get a drop goal? Or, indeed, had there been more at stake, who was going to score the deciding try. 

I am not disagreeing, the end result was not decided but it certainly had an effect on the way the match was going.

[Dunbar]

16 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

On the dissallowed try , Mr Moore requested confirmation of an obstruction on the ' outside ' shoulder , Mr Griffith's confirmed the run by the Leigh player ( and the subsequent very minor contact ) was on the inside shoulder of Mr French 

He should have given the try , it really is that simple 

Hopefully somebody will get down to Robin Park this week to explain the obstruction laws to Mr Peet , as he obviously doesn't understand them , given his post match interview 

IMO it has cost us a GF appearance 

 

58 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As my dad once said to me from his football playing days " if I kick off to the left , we might win , if I kick off to the right we might lose , or visa versa " everything that happens alters everything that comes after it , me posting on this thread now will alter my life , as reading it will alter yours 

If that try is given the whole remaining game changes , given Reynolds kicking form we'd have probably taken the lead , altering everything that Wigan do afterwards , they might have gone on and scored 3 more trys , or they might have ' bombed ' chances trying too hard , the same applies to Leigh 

You are having an absolutely cracking argument with yourself on this thread.

[LeeF]

21 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

The key is to create a natural pathway for referees who reach the relative retirement age rather than hacking them off to the extent that they jack it in way before their time

Subject to funding I agree