The IMG Gradings Thread - Post all your IMG Gradings related questions or comments here

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Leonard said:

Okay, they can't compete in the division for whatever reason (league one vs SL side still applies).

That makes the supposed vetting and grading system so much better?

IMG have graded a team that looks possibly unable to compete 18 out of 35.

If that's fine, then all good with the system. 

As someone who works in company valuation, often for Court, I'd be embarrassed to do that.

As someone who does the job you do I am surprised that you are using the word "bust" the way you did and flippantly then dismiss it when called out... they have taken a mature decision that it would be nice if many other companies would make when they know there is a chance cannot continue. They have made sure this does not happen mid season next year leaving players in the lurch, staff in the lurch and many small businesses owed a lot of money. As a small businessman it would be nice if others made similar decision rather than causing the upset, pain and anguish that companies do when they try and try and try to keep going but leave people unpaid for work carried out which can be quite a lot of money and have a major knock on effect. 

There are meetings going on about the structure and the club itself has said (IIRC) that they will be looking for someone to come in who is prepared to lead them through this. So they are not done just yet hence (I presume) the grading was done with the information they have to hand.

With regards IMG, your not keen on them by the sounds of it (I am inferring from what you say but the "by the sounds of it" gives that away) for a number of reasons not all to do with these gradings. Fair enough. As I have said many times on this board over the past year I am sceptical but we desperately need to do something otherwise the game will continue to slip. I am not sure the grading is picking the right areas etc but that is where it is and to be honest I am not that shocked about any of the placings and I think if you took a step back with your "company valuation" hat on you would see the same.. London is a basket case as has been said for a long time on here, Sheffield without Mark Aston would be gone, the ground is poor but is a work in progress etc 

What it does show is that a strong business can see that league one doesn't work so much that they cannot see them surviving the drop in income and extra costs that come with league one, surely rather than that being an issue with IMG's calculations can we not see that is further evidence for what has been said for a long long time which is that league one is unsustainable?

You see this as an issue with IMG but when you put all of this with everything that has been coming out of clubs for the past 5 years or more the grading is just more evidence that the RFL have been asleep at the wheel. Things need to change otherwise what the hell does happen to any expansion effort and frankly to the likes of Hunslet and Keighly who will end up trapped. The grading places London below Newcastle, I think thats probably fair to be honest as a business (would you survive the drop to league one?) the fact that on the pitch one went up and one went down this year shows the perils of p&r for a sport that does not have the funding to help clubs with the step up and down and plug the gaps.

As with the arguments about teams/investors giving up due to seeing their grading this is about what you do with the data not the data itself. If the RFL stick their head in the sand, if the clubs stick their heads in the sand then nothing will change. If they use it as proof, a to do list and a catalyst then maybe just maybe this will work but thats not on IMG thats on the clubs and the RFL all IMG have done is provide the information. 

I think i've pretty much said my piece now though, its going around in circles as people are pretty much entrenched against this idea and have been from the start (not saying that is you leonard) and, I am sure, they will say the opposite too. 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by RP London

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

As someone who does the job you do I am surprised that you are using the word "bust" the way you did and flippantly then dismiss it when called out... they have taken a mature decision that it would be nice if many other companies would make when they know there is a chance cannot continue. They have made sure this does not happen mid season next year leaving players in the lurch, staff in the lurch and many small businesses owed a lot of money. As a small businessman it would be nice if others made similar decision rather than causing the upset, pain and anguish that companies do when they try and try and try to keep going but leave people unpaid for work carried out which can be quite a lot of money and have a major knock on effect. 

There are meetings going on about the structure and the club itself has said (IIRC) that they will be looking for someone to come in who is prepared to lead them through this. So they are not done just yet hence (I presume) the grading was done with the information they have to hand.

With regards IMG, your not keen on them by the sounds of it (I am inferring from what you say but the "by the sounds of it" gives that away) for a number of reasons not all to do with these gradings. Fair enough. As I have said many times on this board over the past year I am sceptical but we desperately need to do something otherwise the game will continue to slip. I am not sure the grading is picking the right areas etc but that is where it is and to be honest I am not that shocked about any of the placings and I think if you took a step back with your "company valuation" hat on you would see the same.. London is a basket case as has been said for a long time on here, Sheffield without Mark Aston would be gone, the ground is poor but is a work in progress etc 

What it does show is that a strong business can see that league one doesn't work so much that they cannot see them surviving the drop in income and extra costs that come with league one, surely rather than that being an issue with IMG's calculations can we not see that is further evidence for what has been said for a long long time which is that league one is unsustainable?

You see this as an issue with IMG but when you put all of this with everything that has been coming out of clubs for the past 5 years or more the grading is just more evidence that the RFL have been asleep at the wheel. Things need to change otherwise what the hell does happen to any expansion effort and frankly to the likes of Hunslet and Keighly who will end up trapped. The grading places London below Newcastle, I think thats probably fair to be honest as a business (would you survive the drop to league one?) the fact that on the pitch one went up and one went down this year shows the perils of p&r for a sport that does not have the funding to help clubs with the step up and down and plug the gaps.

As with the arguments about teams/investors giving up due to seeing their grading this is about what you do with the data not the data itself. If the RFL stick their head in the sand, if the clubs stick their heads in the sand then nothing will change. If they use it as proof, a to do list and a catalyst then maybe just maybe this will work but thats not on IMG thats on the clubs and the RFL all IMG have done is provide the information. 

 

I read a couple of lines and gave up. 

Bust is often used in vernacular for such situations. I'll leave you to pedantry. 

[Chrispmartha]

a few of the people bemoaning the new system are also those that say the games rubbish as it is, so the question is, what would they propose? 

[glossop saint]

2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I read a couple of lines and gave up. 

Bust is often used in vernacular for such situations. I'll leave you to pedantry. 

Did you do the same with the IMG document because it is quite clear from various posts that you haven't read it. If you do then you might see what is trying to be done with it. You might see the various areas which are lacking, as in my opinion there are a few. You might then be able to make a constructive argument as to why it isn't good as opposed to daft comments such as winner of league 1 being promoted over all the championship. 

Or just read a balanced and considered post from a sensible poster.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

 what would they propose? 

They don't need to propose. Just moan.

Or, in the case of some, flip their position every page or so.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Meanwhile....Toulouse and others will also 'adjust' figures over the course of the season. It's a sport of massaging figures mega. 

It'll be interesting in 4-5 years when Salford and Huddersfield are grade A, not a lot of improvement needed, and probably Leigh and Wakey too. 

So a similar league to now, with a couple of sides fighting over 12th, possibly 11th, but based on points and not on the pitch performance, with the baked in advantage SL gives to fans, coverage etc 

Certainly a similar location of clubs, possibly Toulouse aside. 

So some ground improvements here and there, HT drag acts, food offerings etc. 

Why is that materially more sellable than now and what revenue increases through advertising and the such are they expecting?

Have they ever put £s on this?

 

[dkw]

9 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I read a couple of lines and gave up. 

Bust is often used in vernacular for such situations. I'll leave you to pedantry. 

What a disingenuous way of discussing a topic, just because he has a much better grasp on the situation than you. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by dkw

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Did you do the same with the IMG document because it is quite clear from various posts that you haven't read it. If you do then you might see what is trying to be done with it. You might see the various areas which are lacking, as in my opinion there are a few. You might then be able to make a constructive argument as to why it isn't good as opposed to daft comments such as winner of league 1 being promoted over all the championship. 

Or just read a balanced and considered post from a sensible poster.

Feels a strawman.

 

[dkw]

4 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Did you do the same with the IMG document because it is quite clear from various posts that you haven't read it. If you do then you might see what is trying to be done with it. You might see the various areas which are lacking, as in my opinion there are a few. You might then be able to make a constructive argument as to why it isn't good as opposed to daft comments such as winner of league 1 being promoted over all the championship. 

Or just read a balanced and considered post from a sensible poster.

I think his reply to RP shows us exactly the kind of poster he is, complete waste of time and effort.

[glossop saint]

1 minute ago, Leonard said:

Feels a strawman.

 

What does?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

What a disingenuous way of discussing a topic, just because he has a much better grasp on the situation than you. 

Not really. I'm walking the dog 

He's half followed me all thread 

Life's too short. 

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I read a couple of lines and gave up. 

Bust is often used in vernacular for such situations. I'll leave you to pedantry. 

fair enough.. glad to see professionalism is strong in your line of work.. 

[dkw]

21 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Meanwhile....Toulouse and others will also 'adjust' figures over the course of the season. It's a sport of massaging figures mega. 

You know these figures are auditable right, they cant just be made up and everyone just believes them, move on...

They need to be adjusted quite significantly to move the needle, to adjust the figures by that much and have no way of showing the data leaves them open to punishments. I`m pretty sure that is not going to happen.

[Gooleboy]

10 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

That’s because those with grievences shout the loudest.

You are not doing bad to say you and your club haven't got any issues.

[gingerjon]

10 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Life's too short. 

More than double the number of posts of the next highest poster on this thread ...

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Not really. I'm walking the dog 

He's half followed me all thread 

Life's too short. 

What do you mean "half followed" you quote me and I quote you back its 2 people having a conversation. You're asking me questions I answer and ask some back... 

I've picked you up on the Newcastle thing becuase you are wrong and using poor language about it.. FFS if you don't like backwards and forwards conversation or people having an opinion on what you are saying what are you doing on a message board? 

 

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

You are not doing bad to say you and your club haven't got any issues.

Don't think Ive been shouting loud, just discussing the system.

My club has got issues, we've been woeful on the field for a few years considering how well we do in the other aspects of running a rugby club.

[glossop saint]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

You know these figures are auditable right, they cant just be made up and everyone just believes them, move on...

They need to be adjusted quite significantly to move the needle, to adjust the figures by that much and have no way of showing the data leaves them open to punishments. I`m pretty sure that is not going to happen.

It's happened on a few instances that some posters have questioned Toulouses figures, even suggesting corruption. I do wonder about the motivation for this. There's enough wrong with the system to have a sensible discussion but unfortunately some people only seem to want to attack certain clubs, which coincidently aren't from the heartlands and threaten the position of heartland clubs.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, dkw said:

You know these figures are auditable right, they cant just be made up and everyone just believes them, move on...

They need to be adjusted quite significantly to move the needle, to adjust the figures by that much and have no way of showing the data leaves them open to punishments. I`m pretty sure that is not going to happen.

The Cas situation, both ways, casts doubt on whether they were audited or to what level. Audited not being the same as auditable. 

Between 10 and 14 fractions of a point could have a huge impact. 

[Colin James]

Biggest surprise for me is how low Keighley are. I know they've been vocal critics of the system but from the outside they looked to be doing ok over the last couple of years it's only a year since they were talking of SL on the back of a strong promotion from L1.

[Smudger06]

24 minutes ago, dkw said:

You know these figures are auditable right, they cant just be made up and everyone just believes them, move on...

They need to be adjusted quite significantly to move the needle, to adjust the figures by that much and have no way of showing the data leaves them open to punishments. I`m pretty sure that is not going to happen.

Glad to hear a court of auditors will be appointed.

Or will the figures just be audited 'in house' as and when something they don't like crops up? 

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, Colin James said:

Biggest surprise for me is how low Keighley are. I know they've been vocal critics of the system but from the outside they looked to be doing ok over the last couple of years it's only a year since they were talking of SL on the back of a strong promotion from L1.

Agree, it's shocking. 

I don't particularly care about Keighley or Cas however I can see these rankings doing further lasting damage to clubs already. 

[Smudger06]

Just now, Smudger06 said:

Agree, it's shocking. 

I don't particularly care about Keighley or Cas however I can see these rankings doing further lasting damage to clubs already. 

And so damage to clubs = damage to the sport. 

[SowerbyBull]

Looking forward to seeing Bradford gifted a SL spot in the near future, anyway. COYB.

[GUBRATS]

57 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Meanwhile....Toulouse and others will also 'adjust' figures over the course of the season. It's a sport of massaging figures mega. 

Correct , the clubs don't have the resources to make tangible improvements , so will instead focus on making the numbers on the page look better